Muggins

One of the first 2 handers from utgarde keep seems to be catering to this, having 70 hit rating and 56 str on it:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...hiccleaver.jpg

Hopefully they'll keep at least one of the 2 handers from an 80 raid instance in a similar vein to use as a stat offhand.

Edit: To Gia: Painsaw is a polearm, the description for titan's grip only lists 2h maces, axes and swords, but the idea of a fast offhand is solid i believe.

 

Graul

Even a one hander in the off hand gets the 20% speed reduction. Sounds like a bug, but that's currently how it works.

 

Fellwraith

Even if you are banned, it's probably worth noting that there isn't a Bik on area 52.

Sudden death is a PVP talent, it's garbage for PVE. A 125% passive threat modifier, paired with crappy dpr, complicated cycle management, and no threat dump for warriors makes it really unlikely you'd want to use it.

2:1 is way better than the 30:1 you get today. That would be a pretty big increase to your block value and shieldslam damage output (raidbuffed, that's about 150 more base block value for me, 195 with shieldmastery). I've got about 820 block value in my "threat" set, adding 200 BV to that leads to some pretty ridiculous shieldslam potential (4pc T6 + imp shieldbash will also modify the shieldslam damage, until I replace the T6).

I'm a bit concerned about the new threat mechanics as well. We're losing 6 expertise from our tree, and we'll be the only tanking class without an expertise talent in our tree. Our passive threat modifier in defensive stance is actually declining a bit (149.5% today to 145% in lichking). The new WF totem is comparable for dumping threat, but if we're rage starved it's inferior (you're losing the bonus AP you were getting from procs, which should result in a net loss in terms of rage generated).

The thing most people haven't really touched on is that heroic strike damage increases pretty dramatically by level 80 (317 + 111 vs dazed targets today vs 495 damage + 173 against dazed targets, a 56% increase in 6 levels). Shield slam also sees a big increase in base damage (430 avg today to 775 avg in lichking, an 80% increase in 10 levels). Devastate increases from 35 per sunder to 63 per sunder (another 80% increase in 10 levels). The first couple levels of lichking might be painful just because some of the passive abilities have changed, but increases to our ability damage later in the leveling process should help to offset that.

Feral druids see much bigger increases in their abilities. I'm not sure if that's indicative of different threat modifiers (there's no longer a 15% threat increase in their tree, but some people are saying that's going to be folded into the dire bear form, similar to what we're seeing with defensive stance) or just a very big widening in the gap between the two classes.

 

Bungie

Pretty much, ideally i would like to either of the above stated solutions to the hit rating problem, to fully maximize upon the added stats of double two handers instead of having to waste said itemization upon a ridiculous amount of hit rating. Titan's Grip warriors should not have to have the same amount of hit rating as rogues, other wise it will be not beneficial to even consider the talent.

On a completely other track, I have been thinking and was looking to get some other peoples thoughts on how Blood Frenzy warriors are going to fair in wrath, especially considering the new wind fury changes. As far as i know Slam is still under the same mechanics as always, but if anyone who is in the beta could make a quick post to confim/deny that would be awesome. Right now with the haste from the new version of windfury, along with being able to pick up 5/5 flurry our rotations will most likely be too fast to even think about having a slam rotation with out even considering any static haste from gear.

Take Cat's Edge for example:
3.5/( Improved Windfury (24%) * 5/5 Flurry (25%))
3.5/(((1+(24/100))*(1+(25/100)))=2.26

Which under the current slam mechanics is far beyond the soft cap for a slam rotation, but at the same time is definitely fast enough that a BF warrior can keep competitive dps while not having to specc into or use slam.

 

Diamedes

Concerning block value, you're assuming the new 2:1 ratio is in addition to block value on our gear, if thats the case its a nice buff but I have a feeling since they're adding so much strength to all our tanking gear that we don't have block value anymore, so if thats the case then we'll just have to see when we see what the tanking gear actually looks like.

My biggest concern regarding warrior tanks and the change to shield block is how the tanks are going to be balanced. With the removal of crushing blows my 1st thought is that druids will become insanely good raid tanks unless they're agi to dodge ratio is nerfed or they're armor. After seeing the paladin talents it seems like holy shield will remain relatively unchanged so they're going to be the tank based on blocking, they also get a 20% slow so they don't need a TC bitch anymore. My only thoughts after seeing the block changes is that warriors will become more "avoidance" type tanks, anticipation kind of suggests that. I personally have always loved stacking block value for a smooth damage intake (I mostly tank 10 mans where BV is pretty OP), but that is mainly because shield block guaranteed 2 blocks every 5 seconds, I don't think that is the way to go anymore though. Even considering it as a threat talent, we have so many abilities that scale with AP now and possibly shield slam will as well.

 

mistersix

Those are the two biggest concerns I have as well. In that order actually. I know we weren't getting a lot of expertise from defiance but given how important they've made expertise as a stat it just seems counter-intuitive to not give it to us. Maybe we can hope that the new 31 point talent will help adjust for that lack.

 

Densor

I actually took into account the 130% and 110% thresholds. What I did not take into account was the reliance on HS that fury warriors have. Regardless, having to cut back a slight bit on DPS to avoid pulling aggro isn't too imbalanced, considering you are a hybrid DPS'er. As mentioned, all the pure DPS classes (those that can only spec for DPS except in gimmick fights) have threat dumps, but lower basic threat reductions. I feel it is pretty balanced for hybrid DPS'ers to be limited by the effectiveness of the tank, while pure DPS'ers can threat wipe to partially remove that limitation.

And if fury warriors are the only class/spec that has threat issues in WotLK, I feel that it shouldn't be too hard to fix without reintroducing Blessing of Salvation.

 

Graul

Please just stop posting this. Every class performs multiple functions, some to a much greater degree than the next, but there is no such thing as a "pure X" class.

Threat may or may not be a problem at 80. It sounds like they are trying to make it so that tank threat might actually be somewhat weaker initially, but scaling much better, especially in a raid scenario. So until people in the beta hit 80 and have a chance to see how it's performing in smaller instances at least, we can't really do much but speculate right now.

 

• Morsexy

It feels apparent to me that whatever Blizzard decides, they have a baseline idea and that is 1 warrior MT in the raid at all times, my guess is that with all of these assumed buffs being tossed around, we will see a different trend in itemization.

I know in Vanilla I prefered to use Spineshatter over just about any other weapon, because I was 7\31\13 and fury + the slower weapon meant that my threat generation after the first 10-15 seconds ( when it was noticibly poorer with any boss avoidance ) went through the roof. I feel we will see a trend to slower MH's that benefit from windfury haste, and get more benefit from our increased attack power.

I will be surprised if Druid\Paladins aren't better tanks than warriors in the beginning of WotLK regardless of the Beta testing, I mean druids went all of tBC beta and then were radically changed. I can't speak to the fairness of that as I don't play a druid, but that seemed pretty stupid to me at the time regardless if they scaled so well. What was the point of beta testing then?

 

Gruntle

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you talking about dps or tanking? Slower MH's do not benefit more from haste than faster do (well maybe you could say that they get a somewhat smoother rage generation which is good of course, but in pure white damage this is simply not true) and you do not get more benefit from increased AP with a slow weapon. Slower MH's is not a new trend, slow MH has been the number one option dps for a long time. For tanking I doubt there will be slow tanking weapons available anyway.

 

Shha

Dps warriors are "pure Dpsers". If you think Im wrong tell me what boss fights they are used to tank in lets say BT or Sunwell.

- If you say its not only boss fights that count - then I guess you would have to agree that mages should have dps reduced because they can sheep trash?

- If you point out Shade of Akama - same applies - mages can sheep adds there, so they should have low dps right?

- If you make the argument about respeccing then 2 things need to be taken into consideration
a) not even one item in my tanking and dps gear are the same. I get different gear, and different spec. Whats the "hybrid" thing then? I could just as well have 2 chars, one for dps , one for tanking. There is no connection between them from the point of view of raiding guild.

b) Tanking Hybrids can be possibly Druids and Paladins - Druids are pretty obvious - same spec, generally similiar gear - if they socket for agility which most of druids do, their dps and tanking sets are really close together. Paladins often used in aoe threat position, can really do a lot of tanking in healing gear - for example M'uru void spawn tanking is done fine in healing gear with some shadow resistance - which makes a paladin way more useful in p2 then lets say a prot warrior.

c) There will be FOUR tanking classes - if you dont count gimmick fights that still will require some other class. I doubt we will need to have four tanks all too often (if ever , but lets say for new 4h or something), so at least one of the "tanking hybrids" will be brought by the guilds without much prospect of tanking.



Well and finally - all facts considered in T6+ content there is MORE boss fights tanked by mages then by fury warriors - So i guess either we consider mages 'tanking hybrids', or we agree that fights that require furies to tank are "gimmick fights".

 

Densor

Warriors as a class are hybrids, since you can spec for tanking or for DPS'ing. You have the tools to do both. Mages, warlocks, rogues, and hunters all have a single choice for what they can do (outside of gimmick fights, which probably won't exist in WotLK, since DK's will fill the role warlocks and mages currently do in terms of tanking). As a class with only the option to DPS, they have the tools to DPS best. That doesn't mean they do more DPS or provide more utility, it means they have a threat dump. In fact, there are mages and rogues who think they should do more DPS because they have no utility.

Given that Blizzard tries to balance things around PvE AND PvP, it is only safe to assume that any character specced for DPS should do relatively the same amount of DPS as any other character specced for DPS. If that is the case, a fury warrior and a rogue should have equal DPS in PvE, which begs the question of why play a rogue where your only option is to DPS when you could play a warrior and DPS or tank, depending on what you feel like or what job is needed. If there is a raid that needs another tank, is it easier to have a warrior respec or to kick a rogue out and pick up another person entirely? The answer is to have the warrior respec, or maybe the warrior won't need to respec, since the changes to threat generation are designed to reduce the difference between a tank specced tank and a DPS specced tank.

So, for the option for a warrior to tank, even if it requires respeccing or regearing or whatever, the rogue should have some reason to exist rather than just as an alternate to a DPS warrior. That reason is being better at PvE threat, not by doing more damage, but by having a threat dump. Same goes for mages, warlocks, and hunters. All we provide is DPS, so we better be the best at it, but we can't do more DPS than another class because that would imbalance PvP, so we are stuck with a way to do more damage in PvE that only makes a difference if we are generating more effective TPS (taking into account aggro thresholds) than the tank. And since hybrid classes have more passive threat reduction, (again, HS messes things up for warriors, might be a reason why TG could be a better spec than 1h DW fury) they are less likely to be in a position where they are doing more effective TPS than the tank.

And I do so hate talking about the differences between hybrid and pure classes, because everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. If they traded a warrior's 28% white, 32.32% yellow passive threat reduction for 10% passive and invisibility, you'd would still complain about how mages have 30% passive threat reduction on all our abilities so we never have to stop casting to use invisibility.

 

Shha

But mages do have 30% passive threat reduction.

Ranged pulls aggro at 130%, melee does at 110%. Thats why melee gets innate 20% aggro reduction. In general 0.8/1.1 = ~0.73 for warriors, 1/1.3 = 0.77 for mages. Thats the base. Mages are only worse by ~5% in passive threat reduction. They also dont get attacks with innate increased threat - so Id say base threat for mages/sec is lower then warriors. Then they get invis on top of that.

Long gone are the days when people stayed under tank. On brutallus kills i hover at 107-109% threat. Give me the 30% buffer and most of my aggro problems will be non existant.


As for list of advantages rogues and mages bring:

- CC in the same fight they dps in.
- Stuns/ranged CS - occasionally used, but it seems its pretty important on the actual hard fights
- AoE for mages
- Lowest Maintenance classes - Iceblock/Vanish/cloak/wards/mana shield/blink/sprint give those 2 classes probably best survivability and least healer strain. On the other hand warriors take 10% more damage, stay in melee range without snare breaks. Check fights in sunwell - warriors take most damage, rogues and mages take least.

Im not saying mages are completely fine, but they have their advantages.

As for your scenario about the warrior tanking. Does it mean paladins and druids should be subpar healers? Because frankly a druid with good bear gear is about as effective at tanking as a fury warrior. Same for a holy paladin (granted its because only reasonable paladin specs include some basic tanking talents but still).

Its just a matter of 4 year custom that the dps warriors are viewed as main source of "offtanks", while in reality druids do better job, paladins do about same, and DK will doa lot better according to blizzard (all trees are supposedly viable for tanking).

In reality , dps warriors just dps there, there is really no reason to have them OT.

 

Densor

Okay, let's get some numbers correct. Mages and warlocks have -10% threat talents. That gives us .9/1.3=.692 for our spells, which is 30.8% effective threat reduction. Fury warriors have .9*.8/1.1=.655 for white damage, or 34.5% effective threat reduction, and .9*.8*.9/1.1=.589 for yellow damage, or 41.1% effective threat reduction. So, you do have more threat reduction when fully talented. I agree that having to use HS is terrible, but as HS is your rage dump, you might be better off finding a new way to dump rage effectively, although I'm not sure how you'd go about doing that.

Also, there aren't any classes that heal which don't have a DPS spec, so it wouldn't matter if they all had reduced effectiveness while healing, since there isn't a pure healing class to compare it to. Same with tanking.

And while it is easier for a feral druid to switch from a DPS role to a tanking role, I always assume that feral druids are already tanking and instead have the ability to switch to a DPS role from a tank role if not needed. For a fight like Illidari Council where you need 3 tanks other than the mage, you get 1 feral/prot pally for the rogue, 1 prot warrior for the paladin, and 1 of something else for the priest. I don't think it matters much what your gear is, as she does mostly spell damage. In fact, since neither ferals or prot paladins have spell interrupts, it is probably much easier to have the prot pally tank the rogue, the feral druid switch to DPS, and a DPS warrior tank the priest.

For Felmyst, a DPS warrior throwing on a sword and board, intercepting random skeletons, hamstring + some damage, and running off to find a 2 more skeletons and then calling for a Righteous Defense from the tanking paladin is significant tanking ability while DPS spec. Don't get me wrong, you don't want to be tanking a ton of skeletons at once, but better for you to take the hits than a healer, plus the damage you put out for threat is much greater than the healing threat. Although I suppose any DPS class/spec can probably do that, as long as they have some way of kiting or taking a hit or two. Bleh.

Nothing stopping you from throwing on a shield, hitting shield wall, and switching to battle stance to mocking blow Sathrovar if he is close to killing human Kalecgos.

I'm out of examples now. So, in conclusion, fury warriors have more threat reduction, better utility in boss fights most of the time, considering your interrupt can't miss, and relatively constant DPS. Mages get spikey DPS, Ice Block (better utility than polymorph on boss fights), invis, and lower incoming damage, though we can't use healthstones or health pots, since we need the mana.

Anyway, this is a stupid discussion, the thread should get back on track. Topics that could use some more fleshing out are: TG fury vs 1h fury for TPS generation, whether cleave could be a better rage dump than HS (the damage is better on WotLK cleave when talented than HS against non-dazed targets, and it has less additional threat, I think), and if rend will be useful for DPS'ing or tanking especially in regards to a TG build.

 

Tornaz

It's difficult to talk about Rend effectiveness at level 80 for obvious reasons, but some theorycraft can be done to show how much of an effect the changes to Rend would have on our current level 70s.

Given that old Rend (rank 8) damage per tick was

(182 + (0.05201 * ((MaxWpnDmg + MinWpnDmg)/2) + ((AP / 14) * NWS)))/7

where NWS is 3.3 for a 2-hander or 2.4 for a 1-hander, and that new Rend (rank 8) damage per tick will be

(180 + (0.3 * ((MaxWpnDmg + MinWpnDmg)/2) + ((AP / 14) * NWS)))/5

We can show that an approximate "fresh 70" warrior, wielding Lunar Crescent and having 1400 AP (why yes, I did pick my numbers for ease of mathematics) rises from 31.46 to 80.13 damage per tick (10.49 to 26.71 DPS)

A warrior wielding Devastation (the 2 handed axe from the Kael TK fight) with 2800 AP would increase Rend damage from 35.51 to 112.8 per tick (11.84 to 37.6 DPS)

Both sets of numbers are rounded to 2 decimal places.

The Rend increase will scale further and better with gear.

 

Shha

Yea 2 great examples. Its really ironic.

Are you really trying to convince that dps warrior tanking priest on IC is more crucial then having a mage tank Zerevor? Or that AoE class is less useful during flight phase and dealing with skeletons then melee? . Btw we us a rogue to tank the priest on IC :P.
Either way my point is, the non-dps uses of fury warriors while exist, arent really more common then non-dps uses of mages/warlocks/rogues etc in boss fights.

On the threat part - you cant really expect warriors to always take full talent reduction, especially when they pigeonhole us into BF .

Still yea enough about that, As for the topics at hand Im trying to make a long coherent post like one like 6 pages ago, but some small changes in beta keep pushing it back to the drawing desk

 

Tornaz

Oh a question pursuant to my working out the mathematics from bleeds: How exactly does Bloodbath scale?

 

Densor

Tornaz, I was more referring to the damage per GCD or rage cost of rend being brought up to the point where it could be used. You can't just look at the DPS of the ability. I personally think TG is going to be a better build for fury warriors, but that's just a gut feeling, no numbers to back it up. However, that means I'm assuming you're TG for my following numbers.

Okay, say you have a 2h weapon with 150 DPS and 3.5s speed. For sake of ease, you have 4200 AP raid buffed. For a rend, you'd be looking at 300 + .3 * (150*3.5 + 300*3.3) for base damage. That's 754.5 damage. Multiply that by 1.75 for Bloodletting and 1.3 for Mangle, giving 1716.5 damage. That's a good amount of damage for a single GCD, however, I'm not sure the GCD is the big issue, but more of the rage cost. Since we're stuck having to switch to battle stance for rend, and then back to zerker, we'd be best off using it between weapon swings, but we end up losing a ton of rage. Since we wouldn't be using any other rage dumps if we didn't have rage, we would only be doing this if we had excess rage. So, assuming we have a small amount of excess rage, we'd hopefully be losing only a slight amount of rage by switching over, between weapon swings.

Okay, what else do warriors do with excess rage. I assume that other ability is Heroic Strike. With said 2h weapon, HS would be hitting for (495 + 480*3.5)*(1+crit*1.2). With a 35% crit rate, that's 3088.5 damage, but we need to remove the average damage of the normal weapon swing that replaced, which is 480*3.5*(2*crit+1*(1-miss-crit)). With a miss rate of 19% (worst case scenario, since I figure you are hit capped for specials), that's 1948.8 damage, giving us an actual damage of 1139.7 damage for Heroic Strike. (I did factor in the 10% increased AP in zerker stance, btw, not that it made much difference.)

Now, I have no clue how you would calculate the actual rage cost of Heroic Strike, but if you have a ton of extra rage, I can see Heroic Strike being better than rend, as rend will cost all your rage. However, if you only have a slight bit of extra rage, which I assume is going to be true for at least a part of WotLK raiding, you're probably better off using rend. This would be especially true if the bonus threat from HS is creating problems.

Now, checking Cleave, even though it costs a bit talent-wise to get, but if there's already a BF/Trauma warrior in the raid, I can't see why you couldn't make him do BS and do CS yourself, and losing 3 talent points in Commanding Presence wouldn't be too bad in most cases. (222*2.2+480*3.5)*(1+crit*1.2) = 3079.1 damage. Depending on the actual values for the extra threat from those attacks, the loss of just a tad damage seems insignificant. And the extra rage cost is probably irrelevant if you are using HS or Cleave in a TG build. I can't see you using HS unless you have more than 50 or 60 rage, since a miss on your OH would leave you rage starved before you got another MH attack, depending on when cooldowns refresh.

Edit: I changed rend numbers to reflect not having BF/Trauma, since I figure that would more closely reflect what happens in practice if warriors are one of the classes that only gets 2 raid spots. Also, a prot warrior isn't going to be able to pick up Commanding Presence, so a 2nd DPS warrior does help a bit for a better Commanding Shout.

 

outcast

The argument about Fury warrior threat for WotLK is pretty moot right now in my opinion. As it looks you will want two Warriors in your WotLK raid (2 shouts), one most likely a Prot tank, the other a BF/Trauma DPS warrior meaning 37 points in Arms leaving no room for any threat reducing talent in the Fury tree, i.e. just the base 20% threat reduction.

Assuming that any type of Fury Warrior will have at most the same dps as a Rogue or some other DPS class (which is the way Blizzard usually balances, especially as we are considered "hybrid"), there's no reason at all to bring a high-maintenance class which takes extra damage, has no escape mechanism and can't manage it's own threat. Especially considering there's now 10 classes crowding 25 raid slots.

Considering Fury has very limited PvP viability, very low desirability in 5 mans (especially when undergeared during levelling) I sincerely hope the next Warrior class pass of Blizzard will include moving BF/Trauma to a position accessible for Fury warriors. I've grown too attached to my dual-wielding sack of bones here to see it wither away into undesirability.

 

Tornaz

EDIT: This is in reply to Densor

I see what you are saying regarding DPGCD.

Regarding rage issue, it's worth considering simply remaining in Battle Stance if going for a heavy-duty bleed build, which negates your Rage concerns and leaves you interweaving MS and Slam around the swing timer, and bleeding all available targets.

This is especially worthy of consideration because the WotLK tank spec warrior is going to be mighty short of points to spare, and would really like to drop those 3 out of Arms. This 37/31/3 build would give both improved shouts, improved Thunderclap, MS debuff, BF and Trauma to a target, which isn't a bad selection of effects. It's even a semi-capable OT in an emergency.

 

Shha

One thing to everyone's assumption about "1 dps warrior".

a) Its not really set in stone every raid will use a protection warrior. It has nothing to do with them being weak. Lets just say we entered BC with the mindset that "only warriors tank", which was ruined pretty quick. Still it started the motion and gear of warrior MTs. It might as well go further in WotLK, and while prot warriors will be viable MTs, there might just be a whole bunch of guilds not using one. To be seen.
(On another example - on some fights in sunwell we dont use warrior tank (Brutallus,Felmyst), and beside M'uru there isnt real reason to use one, and other guild on our server i believe uses a paladin/druid combo to tank - it can happen)

b) Remember about the group setup. Right now there is plenty of times I could put a warrior for a warlock/mage/spriest from pure dps perspective. The limiting factor is melee group(s) capacity. You cant just randomly toss a dps warrior into the raid and expect him to do ok damage. WotLK with raid wide buffs shatters those strict melee restrictions - yea a warrior without enh in his group will have 10% less attack power, but thats about it.

Right now with a melee group of enh+ret+arms warrior+1st rogue you have ONE spot contested by all the extra rogues and dps warriors. So if you have a tank + arms (2 warriors) and 1 rogue there is usually pressure to bring extra rogue. With 2 melee groups its not much better - you bring another enh shaman and you put your feral/prot in it as well. So all it gives is 2 extra slots - it usually goes with 3rd rogue and 3rd warrior (fury), but if you lets say have 2nd feral it starts to get more complicated.

Im not saying my examples are perfect - but you see the problem right now - there is a very narrow amount of spots in melee group, that a fury warrior can compete for. With the group synergies not being as restrictive a fury warrior can be a good addition to raid - given they do apropriate dps. And yea to connect this reply to discussion few posts above - it might as well means fury warriors will compete with mages for spots now, not rogues - just an example.

 

Fellwraith

Sorry in advance I'm combining a couple of your posts into one quote so I don't multi-quote.

This isn't the case for a lot of fights (particularly the fights were there's a charge or some type of a phase transition like bloodboil) and it can backfire if you have someone else pull aggro next to you and you're over 110% threat. I've seen plenty of people who are new to the Brutallus fight move to the burn location and they have an offensive spell tic. His giant hitbox makes it kind of hard for a ranged dps to gauge where they're safe, they get a bit too close and they're dead (and this is only at ~111% threat).

Feral Druids also have a pretty big change to their talent trees where they can't have a spec that is optimal for both tanking and dpsing in Lichking. They're going to have to give up a little of one or the other. Prot paladins are getting a couple talents that help with their healing (even when in tanking gear).


Group composition is going to change materially in Lich King. There's at least 3-4 classes I can name that provide synergy buffs to a melee group that you didn't get today. If you're really concerned about fury warriors, you should take a look at the kind of buffs you're getting from other classes (buffs like abomination's strength don't do nearly as much for a rogue as they do for us).

I also think people are harping on the "high maintenance" thing too much, that's also going to change in wrath. Take a good look at the new version of a deathknight's blood aura, ret paladin's 51 point talent and your new bloodthirst. It's much less likely that you'll put the warriors in with the rogues in Lichking, you'll probably have a group of dps warrior, feral druid, bloodknight, and ret paladin + 1 more. Your 10% extra damage taken really doesn't matter if you have bloodthirst, imp blood aura, the ret paladin's 51 point talent, and imp lotp healing you.

 

Graul

I don't know how many guilds actually give a Feral Druid to the melee group anymore, but when we bring at least two Hunters, they always get put in the tank group with the Druid, Warrior and Shaman. You're also going to most likely not have more than one Enhancement Shaman per raid, which means either the Warrior gets the bonus AP or a Rogue does but not both. And even if we were to get Abomination's Strength, don't we still need a Shaman *in the group* to get Bloodlust, or is that now raid wide as well? Adding a Death Knight to the raid is similar to having an Arms Warrior and Fury Warrior at the same time as far as group comp goes. That is hard enough, now add yet another to the mix and one or two of them are going to end up with hand me down buffs.

 

Nite_Moogle

Bloodbath isn't currently available from trainers, sorry.

Either hand using a 2her means you are subject to the slow penalty. That's not a bug. A 2h main hand and 1h offhand with out a slow penalty would be highly broken.

Yes. The fix is purely to Bloodsurge at the moment. Beyond instant slams not resetting the swing timer there is no further change to Slam.

 

Graul

Please explain how dumping 5 points into a near end tier talent that should be increasing your DPS and only having it affect two handers would be considered "broken" when as it stands right now you gain very little from it in terms of white damage compared to what you can get right now with two one handed weapons? The difference between 2x 2h and 2x 1h is extremely small right now even when you factor in your instant Slam around every 18 seconds and the small increase in DPS WW gives. So small that it does not seem worth the points invested at all. The only major advantage to being able to use a one hander without a penalty is much smoother rage generation. You wouldn't actually be gaining much in terms of actual white damage or yellow for that matter...you just won't have such horrible spikes and droughts with rage.

Ex:

Brutal Gladiator's Chopper
196 - 365 Damage Speed 2.60
(107.9 damage per second)
Equip: Improves hit rating by 9 (0.57% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 22 (1% @ L70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 38.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 49 of your opponent's armor.

Brutal Gladiator's Decapitator
404 - 606 Damage Speed 3.60
(140.3 damage per second)
Equip: Improves hit rating by 19 (1.2% @ L70).
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 50 (2.26% @ L70).
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 33 (0.84% @ L70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 100.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 98 of your opponent's armor.

Ignoring any contribution from hit, crit and ArP the one handed weapon without a speed penalty ends up being 69.37 DPS and the two hander with the speed penalty ends up being 76.87 in the off hand. Broken?