WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 131

Gellor · 10/14/08, 12:54 PM

With regards to hit rating, Im only gemming hit high enough so that with the 20 hit food and draenei racial put me at hit cap, can rely on a draenai in raid 100% of the time.

levk · 10/14/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua0889

okay, alex i looked at your specs, and i like them. they make sense to my mage mind if you will..the only thing is that , i thought tactical mastery and even anger management were good to have for tanking. can you explain why they aren't needed?

With charge and zerker rage usable in all stances (with warbringer) I don't see a reason to switch stances ever as a tank.

Stink · 10/14/08, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Gellor

With regards to hit rating, Im only gemming hit high enough so that with the 20 hit food and draenei racial put me at hit cap, can rely on a draenai in raid 100% of the time.

Good point. Draenei shaman racial also giving melee hit slipped my mind.

Vitalstatistix · 10/14/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stink

...the 15 hit glove enchant...

Ah I forgot about [Enchant Gloves - Spell Strike] which should now also provide hit rating for melee. In addition to surefooted and the head enchant (ferocity) are there any non-standard enchants that provide hit rating?

Also, what glyphs have most people been using for their dps tests on dummies? For major glyphs Fury looks stuck with glyph of heroic strike and glyph of execution. Maybe situational use of the cleaving and whirlwind glyphs.
I'm torn between what to use as Arms though. In addition to execution and heroic strike (and also situationally cleaving/whirlwind), there's glyphs of Mortal Strike, Overpower, Rending and Sweeping Strikes.
It doesn't look like ANY of the minor glyphs are even worth mentioning when it comes to DPSing in raids.

Russta · 10/14/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stink

Good point. Draenei shaman racial also giving melee hit slipped my mind.

Heroic and Inspiring Presence have been homogenized to give both melee and spell hit now so any Draenei class works.

I'm not completely sure if it's raid wide though with what isn't these days, it's not like it'll be hard to get in a group with one.

Originally Posted by Vitalstatistix

It doesn't look like ANY of the minor glyphs are even worth mentioning when it comes to DPSing in raids.

I slightly disagree with you on this.

I have many anecdotal tales of just being about to hit Charge and being pulsed into combat. I believe the extra 5 yards from the Glyph of Charging will make for a nice burst of 25 Rage we don't tend to get now especially considering Arms won't leave Battle Stance anymore.

Duranthor · 10/14/08, 1:17 PM

So we get to use haste gems now.....Ya? What do you guys think about that?

Machinator · 10/14/08, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Duranthor

So we get to use haste gems now.....Ya? What do you guys think about that?

Not much since str/crit/hit gems are more dps.

Also I am getting Execution/Savagery as best enchants for TG, followed by Exe/Mongoose, and then Mongoose/Savagery.

Emeraude · 10/14/08, 1:30 PM

The build going live right now has a lot of class changes. But it doesn't have all of them. Some changes, particularly those that affect high level abilities and some of the changes we made more recently won't be in today's build. But you will get them all on or before Nov 13 when Lich King goes live.

While we have done some balance testing at level 70 with the changes, we tested at level 80 a lot more, since so many players are focused on Arena combat and endgame raiding. Balance at 70 is going to feel different from 80.

If you played WoW at the 2.0 version before Burning Crusade shipped, you'll remember that this can be a crazy time. You have new abilities through talents, but not new core abilities, and not enough talent points to get everything. There are major gear changes, major mechanic changes, and a lot of class changes. Some of those are going to take some getting used to, and despite our best efforts, it's entirely possible we'll find something broken that needs to be hotfixed right away.

The game should start feeling a little more normal again when Lich King ships. It's cool to keep providing feedback and testing things out. Just try and be a little patient and understanding over the next couple of weeks as players learn about the changes (especially players who weren't in the beta), get all of their broken mods working, and we make whatever fixes we need to make on our end.

Update from Ghost on the build today, means we might not see 5 second BTs or 12% Titan's Grip on Live Servers today, hopefully it somehow made it on, but if it didn't, meh.

Russta · 10/14/08, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Update from Ghost on the build today, means we might not see 5 second BTs or 12% Titan's Grip on Live Servers today, hopefully it somehow made it on, but if it didn't, meh.

And Sudden Death will remain ridiculously overpowered!

Kysimir · 10/14/08, 1:56 PM

I know what the icon says, but I know blizzard... so I have to ask.

Bladestorm: Does it effect all targets in range, or 4?

Originally Posted by Russta

And Sudden Death will remain ridiculously overpowered!

I dunno, in the hands of a pro, sure... but I think most warriors will hit it everytime its up, but will lack the rage regen to support such a dump.

Machiavelli1780 · 10/14/08, 2:11 PM

Starting premise: I have read that armor penetration is now not an effective warrior stat based on changes on how it is calculated.

I guess the question then is, should I try to swap out my current Arp gear in favor of something else? With more crit, haste, ap, what?

My roughly 1100 arp is gonna translate into roughly 23% armor ignore. If I used mace spec, it would be 38%. Does other gear, specs outperform that for raiding?

This also does not count executioner proc. Is executioner still best 2h weapon enchant?

Grymm · 10/14/08, 2:26 PM

Blizz talent calculator updated:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator

Old AttT. Old (rage reduction) UF. 15% TG. 10% enrage. 50% devastate. 60% deep wounds (mechanics unknown)??? 3 pt, 6% 2hd spec, SD on crit, Blood frenzy has the haste. Older version of vigilance.

This is merely indicative of what is going live and not necessarily correct.

Aedon · 10/14/08, 2:27 PM

What does the Arms PvE build look like now? Sudden Death build? could someone link me the spec. Also for people going TG if they do what spec are you going? Im talking about before Wrath, level 70. and then link me the level 80 ones.

Mongerthod · 10/14/08, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Machiavelli1780

Starting premise: I have read that armor penetration is now not an effective warrior stat based on changes on how it is calculated.

I guess the question then is, should I try to swap out my current Arp gear in favor of something else? With more crit, haste, ap, what?

My roughly 1100 arp is gonna translate into roughly 23% armor ignore. If I used mace spec, it would be 38%. Does other gear, specs outperform that for raiding?

This also does not count executioner proc. Is executioner still best 2h weapon enchant?

Yes I have also been wondering this. In my current full sunwell gear I have 1800ish ArP without exe up, so would swapping out leggings of divine retribution for something like s4/archi legs provide more dps? Granted I'm not stacking armor pen, this is just what I have in my normal gear.

As for 2h specs Machiavelli, what I've read from previous posts is that axe seems to outperform mace, with swords being last in dps.

Bregonn · 10/14/08, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Alexplayswow

For WOTLK tanking I'd go: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Bloodcraze in a tanking build? You do realize it requires you to be crit, which should never happen?

Fellwraith · 10/14/08, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Grymm

Blizz talent calculator updated:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator

Old AttT. Old (rage reduction) UF. 15% TG. 10% enrage. 50% devastate. 60% deep wounds (mechanics unknown)??? 3 pt, 6% 2hd spec, SD on crit, Blood frenzy has the haste. Older version of vigilance.

This is merely indicative of what is going live and not necessarily correct.

If that's accurate, I wonder if the higher damage amounts on revenge made it into this patch? I'm pretty sure there was an interim build for the Lichking beta that had the old AttT, a nerfed devastate, and no changes to revenge.

I was going to give people a hard time for not taking imp revenge in their tanking builds (it's more threat than 2 points in incite is going to get you at 70, especially in low rage situations), but if you don't have the higher damage amounts, then the talent isn't nearly as good.

AttT is a must-have for tanks if it's the strength version. Cruelty is ok for tanking, but you can live without it at 70. My base crit rate is still over 6 or 7%, even with the loss of agi on tanking plate. All of your special attacks except revenge will be over a 20% crit rate, that's more than adequate.

I'll probably end up with some variation of a 5/3/53 build today. I'm not sure if I want imp spell reflect over 2 more points in shield specialization.

Warstehgnome · 10/14/08, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

If that's accurate, I wonder if the higher damage amounts on revenge made it into this patch? I'm pretty sure there was an interim build for the Lichking beta that had the old AttT, a nerfed devastate, and no changes to revenge.

I was going to give people a hard time for not taking imp revenge in their tanking builds (it's more threat than 2 points in incite is going to get you at 70, especially in low rage situations), but if you don't have the higher damage amounts, then the talent isn't nearly as good.

AttT is a must-have for tanks if it's the strength version. Cruelty is ok for tanking, but you can live without it at 70. My base crit rate is still over 6 or 7%, even with the loss of agi on tanking plate. All of your special attacks except revenge will be over a 20% crit rate, that's more than adequate.

I'll probably end up with some variation of a 5/3/53 build today. I'm not sure if I want imp spell reflect over 2 more points in shield specialization.

That is not the build that is going in. The build we have atm is the one that was on the PTR recently. Their calculator says it has been updated but that is about a month old with the non-buffed revenge and AttT for str.

If you were on the PTR recently, you know what you are getting. It it certainly not blizzards calculator as that is quite old and non-updated.

Soloman · 10/14/08, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

I'll probably end up with some variation of a 5/3/53 build today. I'm not sure if I want imp spell reflect over 2 more points in shield specialization.

The only major problem I have with imp spell reflect is twofold.

First is the range which unless they recently upped it, was 10 yards on PTR. How often are you really within 10 yards of your entire group?

Secondly is the SR mechanic itself. After playin the PTR quite a bit: running heroics, kara, ZA, some SSC/BT. I honestly found very few situations in which I could actually utilize imp SR. True aoe's are unaffected, only volley types are really noticable.

So all in all if you really want imp SR take one point max (for the utility).

Personally I keep leaning towards a 7/3/51 build. Imp charge, 2 in punture and imp revenge 0/5 anticipation. Mostly I just run heroics atm or OT in raids which I do without all that extra dodge anyway. wrath final build would be 7/8/56

Fellwraith · 10/14/08, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Soloman

The only major problem I have with imp spell reflect is twofold.

First is the range which unless they recently upped it, was 10 yards on PTR. How often are you really within 10 yards of your entire group?

Secondly is the SR mechanic itself. After playin the PTR quite a bit: running heroics, kara, ZA, some SSC/BT. I honestly found very few situations in which I could actually utilize imp SR. True aoe's are unaffected, only volley types are really noticable.

So all in all if you really want imp SR take one point max (for the utility).

I'd be taking imp SR for mitigation/avoidance reasons. Reflecting party members is ok (although they get the threat, I don't so it's not necessarily a good thing), but the main reason is for 4% fewer single-target spells landing on me. That's a lot of spell damage reduction for some encounters.

Threat's really not an issue in lichking beta and I doubt it'll be an issue at 70, so I'm looking to maximize survival with talents.

Alexplayswow · 10/14/08, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Soloman

The only major problem I have with imp spell reflect is twofold.

First is the range which unless they recently upped it, was 10 yards on PTR. How often are you really within 10 yards of your entire group?

Secondly is the SR mechanic itself. After playin the PTR quite a bit: running heroics, kara, ZA, some SSC/BT. I honestly found very few situations in which I could actually utilize imp SR. True aoe's are unaffected, only volley types are really noticable.

So all in all if you really want imp SR take one point max (for the utility).

Personally I keep leaning towards a 7/3/51 build. Imp charge, 2 in punture and imp revenge 0/5 anticipation. Mostly I just run heroics atm or OT in raids which I do without all that extra dodge anyway. wrath final build would be 7/8/56

The problem is you have 2 points unspent if you dont do imp SR. And there really aren't anymore enticing talents to choose from for those 2 points. What's better than 4% less to get hit by spells, with what's left? I'm stuck in that department so I'm forced to go SR.

Bloodcraze in a tanking build? You do realize it requires you to be crit, which should never happen?

Curse me for speccing too fast and posting! My fault, you are correct. Was trying for CP not BC.

okay, alex i looked at your specs, and i like them. they make sense to my mage mind if you will..the only thing is that , i thought tactical mastery and even anger management were good to have for tanking. can you explain why they aren't needed?

Your rage is abundant in the expansion, no rage talents necessary as Protection. It's a waste. And that's even without using warbringer or zerker rage or regular BR. I'm not kidding when I say I'm never rage starved as a MT or OT.

Soloman · 10/14/08, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by Alexplayswow

Your rage is abundant in the expansion, no rage talents necessary as Protection. It's a waste. And that's even without using warbringer or zerker rage or regular BR. I'm not kidding when I say I'm never rage starved as a MT or OT.

This may be true for actual WotLK in WotLK gear, I'm not really sure as I'm not in the beta.

For 3.0 though there are many times in heroics and raids that I've been able to spend my rage much faster than I would like (ofc no threat issues but I just want boatloads of rage all the time

)

Also for heroics I really like the stun from imp revenge, its handy and entertaining.

Same with Warbringer/imp charge, If you actively look for ways to make it useful (intervene a partymember instantly charge back to mob). You'd prolly end up like me and consider them practically mandatory. By that I mean it's one of those talents that once you get used to it, not having it around feels almost crippling (sure I could intercept like i used to, but i lose rage when i do that so why would i ever want to

)

To each their own, I prefer imp revenge and imp charge. Some prefer imp SR, some can't live without cruelty..

On a side note:
Has anyone run dps numbers on imp tclap for an arms build?

Considering its an unlimited aoe dealing mediocre damage would it get a spot in an aoe pull rotation?

Alexplayswow · 10/14/08, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Soloman

This may be true for actual WotLK in WotLK gear, I'm not really sure as I'm not in the beta.

For 3.0 though there are many times in heroics and raids that I've been able to spend my rage much faster than I would like (ofc no threat issues but I just want boatloads of rage all the time

)

Also for heroics I really like the stun from imp revenge, its handy and entertaining.

Same with Warbringer/imp charge, If you actively look for ways to make it useful (intervene a partymember instantly charge back to mob). You'd prolly end up like me and consider them practically mandatory. By that I mean it's one of those talents that once you get used to it, not having it around feels almost crippling (sure I could intercept like i used to, but i lose rage when i do that so why would i ever want to

)

To each their own, I prefer imp revenge and imp charge. Some prefer imp SR, some can't live without cruelty..

On a side note:
Has anyone run dps numbers on imp tclap for an arms build?

Considering its an unlimited aoe dealing mediocre damage would it get a spot in an aoe pull rotation?

I speak from beta experience regarding the endless rage

I love the idea that I can PvP as prot. 4 stuns: Shockwave, Endless charges, Concussion Blow and Revenge. Prot is the best Warrior spec as of now in terms of overall value.

Soloman · 10/14/08, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kysimir

Excellent Question. I don't know

Main reason I ask is I know from a prot perspective with only mediocre pvp/dps gear I was able to pump out some pretty good numbers while i was testing a 38/8/15 pvp type arms build.

defensive + unrelenting assault's revenge can literally destroy most melee when they engage me. I suppose I could drop AttT for imp revenge and Last stand, or some other variation but I figured the version I was testing had most of the tools to get an idea.

ricked · 10/14/08, 5:55 PM

I havn't yet seen if there is going to be a new prot rotation for 3.0 and/or WoTLK. I probably missed it but if someone could point me in that direction...or tell me i'm dumb and that its the same + more aoe, that'd be awesome. thanks.

/edit

Soloman · 10/14/08, 6:20 PM

Prot is actually moving more towards a priority system rather than a rotation.

From memory it'll be:

Shield slam
Revenge
Dev
Tclap

So a normal rotation barring S&B procs would be SS,Rev,dev,dev

If you get a S&B proc on anything it takes priority of the item normally in that spot.

Generally mine looks more like SS,rev,SS,dev,dev,SS,rev,dev,SS,dev,rev,SS etc..