WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 137

calr0x · 10/21/08, 12:24 PM

(Sorry if has been discussed)

Assuming a normal mix of melee/casters, and ignoring single target attacks like slam/revenge, is it better for AoE aggro to Shockwave a group (assuming they are ideally grouped together) then use Shield Block post stun or Shield Block then Shockwave after SB expires?

TIA

Ambika · 10/21/08, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by calr0x

(Sorry if has been discussed)

Assuming a normal mix of melee/casters, and ignoring single target attacks like slam/revenge, is it better for AoE aggro to Shockwave a group (assuming they are ideally grouped together) then use Shield Block post stun or Shield Block then Shockwave after SB expires?

TIA

If we are assuming you are within melee of all targets, I would Shockwave the casters after I use thunderclap to maintain initial aggro. Chances are you are marking the targets for your dps to kill first and casters are usually high on the priority list. Make sure you toss in Spell reflect to keep them targetd on you while your dps beats them down.

Shield block I use from time to time but it's not necessary really as thunderclap and glyph of devastate makes things wonderfully easy to hold aggro on multiple mobs much like a paladin now.

DarthGreg · 10/22/08, 1:38 AM

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Recent Fury changes

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

As I posted recently in the hunter forums, we increased the armor on level 83 raid bosses by 10%. This will be a nerf to warrior dps.

In the case of Arms and Protection, we don't think any adjustment is necessary at this time. Arms is doing very competitive dps, while Fury has fallen behind. We experimented with lowering the proc chance of Sudden Death, from where Arms gets a lot of its damage, but weren't happy with the result and ultimately decided to buff Fury instead.

First, we increased the percentage of AP that contributes to Bloodthirst from 45% to 50%.

Second, we reduced the hit penalty on special attacks on Titan's Grip from -12% to -5%.

As I have said before, we have been somewhat reluctant to give Titan's Grip such a huge buff. It is now likely more powerful than several other talents in the tree and risks being the 51-point talent to which all other classes compare their 51-point talent. Nevertheless, we feel it was the right change to make.

When a Fury warrior missed a Slam or Bloodthirst on a boss, they ended up building up a lot of extra rage that couldn't be spent fast enough. I understand some players suggested an additional attack for Fury, and that is something we may still consider when we see players hit 80 and start experimenting more with the build. But it would be a very big change that involved touching talent trees and glyphs, as well as a lot of time necessary to iterate on the right values. The Titan's Grip change by contrast was a simple one, and judging by the number of players who have asked for it throughout beta, one that will be welcomed by the community.

catgrass · 10/22/08, 1:58 AM

I am not too sure if this is a stupid question, but I have been doing some research and could not find the answer, so I can only raise this question here and hoping someone could give me some directions.

Deep wounds, says causing average damage on the weapon, does it means if I use the same DPS weapons, it would be doing the same damage no matter if it is a fast speed weapon or slow speed weapon?

Reason I ask is, as Sudden Death is going to be change to proc on all attacks, it would make sense to use a faster weapon if it does not make any difference to the Deep Wounds. Or DW does its damage base on the weapon damage instead of its dps?

Malloron · 10/22/08, 2:30 AM

Originally Posted by catgrass

I am not too sure if this is a stupid question, but I have been doing some research and could not find the answer, so I can only raise this question here and hoping someone could give me some directions.

Deep wounds, says causing average damage on the weapon, does it means if I use the same DPS weapons, it would be doing the same damage no matter if it is a fast speed weapon or slow speed weapon?

Reason I ask is, as Sudden Death is going to be change to proc on all attacks, it would make sense to use a faster weapon if it does not make any difference to the Deep Wounds. Or DW does its damage base on the weapon damage instead of its dps?

Well, it does exactly what it says. "Average damage of the weapon", which means that a slower weapon, (same dps), will give higher DW ticks than that of a faster weapon.

The problem is that DW procs off all crits, and use the MH stats to calculate the damage, so, if you have read Shha's posts in the last couple pages, you will know that we are worried about TGs viability when DW is such a huge part of our dps atm, since a tiny lil dagger seems to be making the enemy leak blood more efficiently than a huge 2hd sword, as long as you use it in your left hand.

But, yeah, you want a slow MH.

salvaticus · 10/22/08, 2:43 AM

Originally Posted by catgrass

I am not too sure if this is a stupid question, but I have been doing some research and could not find the answer, so I can only raise this question here and hoping someone could give me some directions.

Deep wounds, says causing average damage on the weapon, does it means if I use the same DPS weapons, it would be doing the same damage no matter if it is a fast speed weapon or slow speed weapon?

Reason I ask is, as Sudden Death is going to be change to proc on all attacks, it would make sense to use a faster weapon if it does not make any difference to the Deep Wounds. Or DW does its damage base on the weapon damage instead of its dps?

Average Damage = (min+max)/2

Gruntle · 10/22/08, 4:30 AM

Just to make it clear (before we get a zillion questions) the hit cap for yellow attacks with 5% hit penalty will be:
At 70 vs 73 bosses: 221
At 80 vs 83 bosses: 460

With Precision 3/3
At 70 vs 73 bosses: 174
At 80 vs 83 bosses: 361
(combat ratings from Whitehoof's thread)

Also, boss armor increase of 10% will also increase the relative value of ArP at 80 by a bit (10% more armor means that 10% more armor is ignored). Anyone have any ideas on the boss armor of lvl 83 bosses yet?

edit: Fuzzum is of course right, not much point in giving the figures without Precision, added them.

Xires · 10/22/08, 5:22 AM

the tg change looks very good

what is the expertise cap for lvl 80 warrior with/without orc racial? could s1 help me.

Dots · 10/22/08, 5:30 AM

With the changes to boss armor, Deep Wounds will be an even bigger part of our damage. It definitely has to be nerfed somehow, at least OH procs have to use the OH damage range instead of MH.

Borodin · 10/22/08, 5:46 AM

My assumption on the Armour is that they would have had the equivalent armour values to generate the same Damage Reduction at 83 vs a Level 80 Player as for a Level 73 Boss vs 70 player.

Currently I get that a Level 73 Boss mitigates 27% of physical damage via Armour DR (with both Major and Minor Armour Debuffs fully applied i.e. 5 Sunders and a CoR or FF).
Adjusting the base armour up by 10% this increases this mitigation to 30% (after those debuffs).

So my figures show the armour change is a net 3% reduction in physical DPS.

The armour curve might not be so simple so if anyone knows how it plots to 83 I can update the following...

Working off these values I've rerun my Threat Values and this time split out the value for a Hit from the values for "Hits with Crit potential" included (e.g. if you have 30% Crit Chance with Shield Slam and a Crit is +100% damage - the damage component of SS' threat will be increased 30%).

Here's the values I get for hits vs an Armour-debuffed boss, the Warrior having 2,500 AP, 1,500 BV, 15% base Crit chance, Level 80 Tank Weapon (forget the name, Red Sword or similar) and all Protection talents:

                   Hit      Hit with Crit Potential
Devastate 1	 861	1042
Devastate 2	1024	1253
Devastate 3	1195	1475
Devastate 4	1376	1711
Devastate 5+	1568	1961
Sunder Armour*	 975	 975
Revenge**		3965	4522
Shield Slam	5939	7242
Conc. Blow	2943	3385
Shockwave 	2943	3164
Autoattack	 809	 882
Heroic Strike	2123	2599
Thunderclap	2265	2605
Heroic Throw	2972	3417
Damage Shield 	 471	 542

*Obviously Sunder Armour cannot Crit
**Much lower than before as I'd erroneously included Revenge under "Incite".

Chardonnay · 10/22/08, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by Borodin

***Can Damage Shield Crit? I doubt it...

Of course it can, for 200%. (proof) I've seen it crit for 900+ with SB and trinkets up.
Crit rate seems to be equal to shieldslam's crit rate.

Ultramax · 10/22/08, 6:34 AM

Edit: Beaten.

Kinzuru · 10/22/08, 6:36 AM

Don't know if someone tackled this here - tried the search option and failed... please don't flame (ok flame me.. wait what?)...

Just noticed Blood Fury is different - no self mortal strike - but seems to be on same GCD as everything else....

I'm trying to use it as prot - usually use it as fury... this is my macro...

#showtooltip Devastate
/script UIErrorsFrame:UnregisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE");
/cast Devastate
/cast [modifier:shift] Cleave; Heroic Strike
/script UIErrorsFrame:RegisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE");

is there a way to use blood fury so it actually goes?

I put it before devastate - and it uses blood fury ok, but the first time i push it - devastate doesn't go off, only when blood fury is on cooldown...

I put it after Devastate - and it only goes off when im not targetting or in range of a mob...

Put it after heroic strike - same thing.

Any ideas? am i fucked? do I have to push it manually?

i hate my life.

thanks in advance.

Fuzzums · 10/22/08, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Just to make it clear (before we get a zillion questions) the hit cap for yellow attacks with 5% hit penalty will be:
At 70 vs 73 bosses: 221
At 80 vs 83 bosses: 460
(combat ratings from Whitehoof's thread)

Also, boss armor increase of 10% will also increase the relative value of ArP at 80 by a bit (10% more armor means that 10% more armor is ignored). Anyone have any ideas on the boss armor of lvl 83 bosses yet?

To be completely clear, since most warriors taking TG will also take 3/3 precision, I calculate that the required hit rating will be ~174. Calculations are for level 70.

15.77 HR per Hit percent, Base chance to miss with specials vs +3 mob 9%, adding the TG penalty of 5% to specials requires +14 percent hit chance which (14*15.77)=221 as Gruntle posted.

Counting 3/3 Precision, final chance to miss with specials vs +3 mob = 14-3=11% which is (11*15.77)=173.47 HR or 174 to be safe.

My apologies if I'm missing something obvious.

Liar · 10/22/08, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kinzuru

Just noticed Blood Fury is different - no self mortal strike - but seems to be on same GCD as everything else....

I don't play any Orc chars but if it is indeed on the GCD then such a macro will not work. It only works if it is not tied on the GCD, then you could just do
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Devastate

That said, I think it's a bad thing to do (if it worked). You want to stack BF with trinkets and buffs like Bloodlust not just everytime it's up. Hence I suggest you learn to keep it on CD yourself without the macro, but this is definitely up to you.

Origence · 10/22/08, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

When a Fury warrior missed a Slam or Bloodthirst on a boss, they ended up building up a lot of extra rage that couldn't be spent fast enough. I understand some players suggested an additional attack for Fury, and that is something we may still consider when we see players hit 80 and start experimenting more with the build. But it would be a very big change that involved touching talent trees and glyphs, as well as a lot of time necessary to iterate on the right values. The Titan's Grip change by contrast was a simple one, and judging by the number of players who have asked for it throughout beta, one that will be welcomed by the community.

What I thought since the first beta talents is that Sudden Death was in the wrong tree and I still think it. A rotation with Rend/OP/MS/Slam is busy enough already and is fury who lacks ways to use rage and has plenty of free gcds and the faster hits generating rage quicker also goes better with Execute bringing rage back to 0 or 10.
They have said they want Arms as the single 2H tree that plays in Battle Stance. And right now dual wielding in berserker is what goes best for arms. So they should remove or change these dualwielding friendly talents and improve the talents and abilities more aimed to 2H. Like Rend, if they want arms warriors to stay in Battle Stance, Rend has to be meaningful and right now the 2 points in Rend for +20% are quite ridiculous. Not as bad as old Imp. Rend but is a poor talent again. And for what I have seen Rend does around 3-5% of damage even with a 100% uptime. I think Improved Rend being an ability +2 talent points should do more damage than deep wounds. A theoretical deep wounds, obviously not the actual one that is massively good.

Basically that, Sudden Death to Fury and retune Rend/Deep wounds could fix the actual issues of both trees. Also maybe putting Deep Wounds where Sudden Death is now so fury don't have access to it.

Armaul · 10/22/08, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Kinzuru

Just noticed Blood Fury is different - no self mortal strike - but seems to be on same GCD as everything else....

This is correct. Blood Fury can no longer be macro'd alongside other GCD-triggering abilities. Except in the dubious cases of /castrandom or /castsequence.

You can, of course, still macro trinkets in with your abilities. To Liar's point, I too would avoid doing so as well... unless you can restrict the macro to use trinkets when it's ok to be lazy. Namely, when you're soloing.
Example: /use [nogroup] Coren's Lucky Coin

Pixen · 10/22/08, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Origence

Like Rend, if they want arms warriors to stay in Battle Stance, Rend has to be meaningful and right now the 2 points in Rend for +20% are quite ridiculous. Not as bad as old Imp. Rend but is a poor talent again. And for what I have seen Rend does around 3-5% of damage even with a 100% uptime. I think Improved Rend being an ability +2 talent points should do more damage than deep wounds. A theoretical deep wounds, obviously not the actual one that is massively good.

As far as I can tell, the change to Imp Rend (50% to 20%) was made to offset the substantial increase in scalability the new Rend receives from gear. I pulled the numbers for the 3.0.2 and 3.0.3 ranks of Rend from Wowhead, plugged in a S2 sword and 2k AP, and came up with:

Old Rend 8
Wounds the target causing them to bleed for 255 damage plus an additional [0.3 * ((MWB + mwb) / 2 + AP / 14 * MWS)] (based on weapon damage) over 15 sec.

New Rend 8
Wounds the target causing them to bleed for 215 damage plus an additional [1 * ((MWB + mwb) / 2 + AP / 14 * MWS)] (based on weapon damage) over 15 sec.

Now, assume a Merc Glad Greatsword and 2k AP

Old Rend 8 with 2/2 Imp Rend
1.5 * (255 + 0.3 * ( (365+549)/2 + (2000/14)*3.60) ) ) = 819.45 damage over 15 seconds.

New Rend 8 with 2/2 Imp Rend
1.2 * (215 + 1 * ( (365+549)/2 + (2000/14)*3.60) ) ) = 1423.54 damage over 15 seconds.

Also consider that Rend now gets a 1.35 multiplier on targets above 75%, changed from a 4.0 multiplier on enraged targets. This could add a decent chunk of damage in boss fights.

Imp Rend still adds a decent chunk of damage; in the example above, you're still getting 238 extra damage from it. In the 50% version of imp rend, you were gaining 273 extra damage from the talent. Not a huge dropoff. 50% increased damage with the new scaling would have been a bit much.

Vitalstatistix · 10/22/08, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by catgrass

... as Sudden Death is going to be change to proc on all attacks...

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

We experimented with lowering the proc chance of Sudden Death, from where Arms gets a lot of its damage, but weren't happy with the result and ultimately decided to buff Fury instead.

This seems to imply that they are not changing Sudden Death and it will still proc off crits. Or is GC referring to even further nerfs that they only considered in-house?

EDIT: Ah, it seems the proc change on Sudden Death is already on the PTR (as per the latest patch notes).

levk · 10/22/08, 1:44 PM

The other comment from GC states they want arms to use weapons other than axes. By the way, with the proc on hit change anybody feels like going back for [Hand of Justice]? I have it and I'm pretty sure it's white damage since the patch. Before the patch people reported 1.33% proc at 70. I don't have numbers but it sure feels few and far between.

• LodeRunner · 10/22/08, 2:18 PM

No because using the Hand of Justice would be a pretty retarded trinket to use when there's things like Shard, DST, Brooch, ZA one, Tsunami Talisman etc. Seriously why even bring that up?

DarthGreg · 10/22/08, 2:35 PM

Anyone tried a 15/38/8 build for raiding at 70? I was intending on going into Sunwell with a 15/46 slow/fast setup this week to see how much I could cheese Deep Wounds, but I'm wondering if Incite is a good trade-off for (what amounts to) 4% AP, Bloodsurge, and Imp. WW.

Rub · 10/22/08, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by DarthGreg

Anyone tried a 15/38/8 build for raiding at 70? I was intending on going into Sunwell with a 15/46 slow/fast setup this week to see how much I could cheese Deep Wounds, but I'm wondering if Incite is a good trade-off for (what amounts to) 4% AP, Bloodsurge, and Imp. WW.

Future of a DPS Warrior

Grymm · 10/22/08, 3:31 PM

I'm "raiding" as 15/38/8. I have imp ww but only 1/3 decrease dw/reckless talent. I like the spec. 60%+ crit on HS with deep wounds and heroic strike glyph is pretty sweet. I have "raiding" in quotes as my server has been pretty screwed up for a few days so I only have 1 bad brutallus kill to show for it. I'm MHing the Vanir's Right Fist and OHing a Swiftsteel Bludgeon. I have double executioner as the Swiftsteel used to be my MH for execute swapping. It would be better as mongoose. Maybe it would be better with MH mongoose as well. Once I have a couple good fights with it, I'll have a better idea of how I like it.

Kinzuru · 10/22/08, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by Armaul

This is correct. Blood Fury can no longer be macro'd alongside other GCD-triggering abilities. Except in the dubious cases of /castrandom or /castsequence.

You can, of course, still macro trinkets in with your abilities. To Liar's point, I too would avoid doing so as well... unless you can restrict the macro to use trinkets when it's ok to be lazy. Namely, when you're soloing.
Example: /use [nogroup] Coren's Lucky Coin

to maximize efficiency, wouldn't it be best to use it every time its up?

I understand that using it during bloodlust would be baller --- but if you never use it, in contrast, unless blood lust is up --- arnt you missing out on the additional attack power u could have once every 2 minutes?

edit: and i decided to put it in my taunt macro -- but im scared to question, does intervene have same GCD as blood fury then?

#showtooltip Taunt
/script UIErrorsFrame:UnregisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE");
/cast Blood Fury
/cast [modifier:shift] Intervene; Taunt
/script UIErrorsFrame:RegisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE");