WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 137

Nezralix · 09/16/08, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bostung

Numbers

Well, it looks like the 75% threat modification blue comment was either wrong or the change was reverted. Either way, that's good news. It certainly makes Thunderclap more appealing than I was thinking it was going to be.

Dots · 09/17/08, 2:08 AM

1.45/0.7=2.0714

That is the old Defensive Stance threat multiplier with BoSalv baked into it, the number certainly makes sense.

Darmon · 09/17/08, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Darmon

I use for my avoidance tests the dualwield ogres from above Shatrah, using 75 avoidance or so. Don't autoattack, the only rage should be from dodge/paries/blocks

Using the test above, on current PTR you do not gain rage from dodge/pary.

Sabethaya · 09/17/08, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by Dots

1.45/0.7=2.0714

That is the old Defensive Stance threat multiplier with BoSalv baked into it, the number certainly makes sense.

But the old Defensive Stance threat multiplier was 1.30*1.15:

1.30*1.15/0.70 = 213.57% BTW

Bostung · 09/17/08, 3:47 AM

Originally Posted by Sabethaya

But the old Defensive Stance threat multiplier was 1.30*1.15:

1.30*1.15/0.70 = 213.57% BTW

True, but all the official posts talking about making Defiance baseline stated that the new modifier would be 1.45, rather than the 1.495 that actually resulted from the multiplicative stacking. I suspect 1.45 is the number that served as the base before they "baked salv in."

aylene · 09/17/08, 3:51 AM

I do believe my subject of discussion to be fairly non-mathematical and rather emotional therefore not precise as to the point these forums usually require, but is there anyone out there sharing my opinion on the removal of Titan's Grip and instead getting something totally different?

I've been running alot of different TG builds and I always fall back to the feeling that the gameplay the previously mentioned talent favours feels very clumsy and random to the utmost. Whenever I get a miss streak right after dropping flurry I feel like tearing my hair off due to the naturally slow speed of the 2 handers. And whenever the crits reappear the rage is up at 100 again in one mainhand / offhand crit and excessive rage can't be dumped quick enough as long as the offhand continues to crit. What I'm trying to get at is the fact that I don't like the non-flowing playstyle TG implies.

I must say for myself I'd prefer seeing some rework on the live version of rampage moved down two tiers on top of the new rampage which in my opinion appears to be in terms of Blizzards ideas about adjusting max / min raids. I would as well like to keep the one-handers for a more flowing playstyle that doesn't make me want to put a hammer through the screen whenever I'm on a bad streak. But then again I'm realistic enough to realize Blizzard would never change an end talent this close to the release of WotLK.

Anyone care to elaborate on the clumsy, RNG-ish gameplay Titan's Grip advocates? What could be improved about it? Or do you enjoy the high-numbers of the 2 handers?

Nyel · 09/17/08, 8:44 AM

Has anybody done the calculations as to what enchants might be better for TG in live?

For lvl 80 the obvious combination will be Enchant Weapon - Berserking - Spell - World of Warcraft and Enchant Weapon - Accuracy - Spell - World of Warcraft

But im wondering for when patch 3.0.2 goes live, i have a [Bloodmoon] and [The Blade of Harbingers] that will need to be enchanted...my best guess would be to do Exec/Sav, but ive heard people give praise to dual mongoose as TG.

What are your thoughts on this?

Hozz · 09/17/08, 9:01 AM

I dont think a 51 point talent should have a cost, a penalty. It seems like they want us to wield two 2h weps because 'Its cool'. Well maybe its just not going to work out and they ought to rethink the whole thing?

Unending Fury is terrible for how deep it is. What you get for 5 points is shit considering Enraged Assault no longer exists.

kargathia · 09/17/08, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by aylene

I do believe my subject of discussion to be fairly non-mathematical and rather emotional therefore not precise as to the point these forums usually require, but is there anyone out there sharing my opinion on the removal of Titan's Grip and instead getting something totally different?

I've been running alot of different TG builds and I always fall back to the feeling that the gameplay the previously mentioned talent favours feels very clumsy and random to the utmost. Whenever I get a miss streak right after dropping flurry I feel like tearing my hair off due to the naturally slow speed of the 2 handers. And whenever the crits reappear the rage is up at 100 again in one mainhand / offhand crit and excessive rage can't be dumped quick enough as long as the offhand continues to crit. What I'm trying to get at is the fact that I don't like the non-flowing playstyle TG implies.

I must say for myself I'd prefer seeing some rework on the live version of rampage moved down two tiers on top of the new rampage which in my opinion appears to be in terms of Blizzards ideas about adjusting max / min raids. I would as well like to keep the one-handers for a more flowing playstyle that doesn't make me want to put a hammer through the screen whenever I'm on a bad streak. But then again I'm realistic enough to realize Blizzard would never change an end talent this close to the release of WotLK.

Anyone care to elaborate on the clumsy, RNG-ish gameplay Titan's Grip advocates? What could be improved about it? Or do you enjoy the high-numbers of the 2 handers?

This is not founded by any mathematical basis, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway.

It very much sounds like the problems you have while leveling a warrior, if you miss twice in a row you're mainly sitting there and cursing at the screen because it just feels so clumsy and amateuristic.
If titans grip performs the same way it'll feel better when more hit is stacked.

nakoda · 09/17/08, 9:57 AM

Question for Bostung: I noticed you didn't test with Incite. I am pretty inept at creating tests like yours, but given that you started with no talents as your control, wouldn't you want to test with Incite as well as Imp TC in order to see the full range of crit based damage affecting threat levels?

I'm also just going to pipe in and say the 15 minutes I got to try on the PTR last night made me giddy with joy. I've been playing prot since 11/2004, and I've always dreamed of actually feeling like I'm cracking skulls with my shield. Now if Elves could ride Mechanostriders, my dreams would be fulfilled.

Halion · 09/17/08, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Borodin

I love the Vigilance change I think it makes the talent a must-have for a Raid environment with a Warrior Tank.

Blizzard mention they don't want it being cast on someone who is hit all the time (i.e. 2 tanks buffing each other) but whoever takes this buff will need to be a communicator who warns you when it's been removed.

Can someone bring me up to speed with how this mechanic works? Being a Prot Pally who often tanks alongside a warrior, I was looking forward to a free 5% dodge at times when threat wasn't enough of an issue to worry about the 10% loss.

It seems this isn't the intention of the ability.

I notice that it grants 3 taunt refreshes, following this logically, it is 3 hits and the buff is gone?

My thought now is that this would be a useful ability on something like Maexxna's Enraged Web Wrap, toss Vigilance on the MT for a free 5% dodge, might have fallen off by the time the wrap ends, but it has served its purpose. (Assuming of course either 2 prot warriors or a non-warrior MT and a prot OT)

Borodin · 09/17/08, 10:43 AM

Vigilance has a 30 minute duration or 3 hits. The 3 hit limit is designed precisely so you can't grant 5% dodge to another tank (also dropping their threat 10%). If you there was no 3-hit limit 2 Prot Warriors could Vigilance each other, each gaining 5% Dodge and negating the threat drop. 5% Dodge is powerful on a tank, evasion got out of control in TBC....

The intention is you protect someone weaker like a Healer or more likely your highest threat DPSer because the 10% threat drop is now supposed to be a threat leech - cast on your top Warlock and 10% of his threat becomes the Prot Warrior's threat. It was this mechanic I described as a "must have" but it's not made it onto the tooltips and probably not into the PTR yet.
The Taunt refresh is just a bonus really - ideally they won't ever get attacked.

mistersix · 09/17/08, 11:07 AM

Has anyone noticed if they've baked the threat leeching part in yet or not? I'm not feeling it on beta but I'm also only running with their built in meter and not a better addon so it's hard to tell.

Nakoda, you're a man after my own heart. I'd love a mechanostrider as well. Heh.

Bostung · 09/17/08, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by nakoda

Question for Bostung: I noticed you didn't test with Incite. I am pretty inept at creating tests like yours, but given that you started with no talents as your control, wouldn't you want to test with Incite as well as Imp TC in order to see the full range of crit based damage affecting threat levels?.

I wasn't really trying to make a guess at the amount of threat Thunder Clap would be putting out. I was more trying to work out the behind-the-scenes numbers for Thunder Clap and Defensive Stance, so that they could be used for future theorycrafting. I didn't test Incite because it seemed pretty straightforward. It should be granting an extra 15% chance for Thunder Clap to critically hit, and if it doesn't, they'll fix it.

Xav · 09/17/08, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bostung

So, back on the tanking side of things, I did a few tests on the PTR to try to determine the threat mechanics of Thunder Clap and Defensive Stance. I'm hoping this reflects what we'll see in the expansion because I like the numbers I'm seeing. I'll follow up with my method and data, but let me start with the results:

Results:

Stance Threat Modifiers:

Battle: 80%
Defensive: 207.35%
Berserker: 80%

Thunder Clap:

Threat Modifier: 175%
AP Coeficient: 12% (24% with improved TC)
Improved Thunder Clap doubled all damage, base and AP
150% damage criticals
Seems to use melee hit/crit (key word: seems. This part of the testing was sloppy as hell)

It's not entirely clear for me by your posts, but are you saying the 207% modifier from defensive stance is on top of the 175% tc multiplier? Because that's how I was seeing it ingame. I was doing rough testing on abilities (and similarly concluded Defensive Stance is a 200~% multiplier, or giving you 100% extra threat regardless, even white hits)

And I was seeing my Thunderclap generate about 400% of its damage in threat - Thunderclaps for 800 would be 3200 threat roughly on all of the mobs, which is right around 175+207.35 (I didn't actually do any math, but when I saw TC hit for ~8xx and then see ~32xx threat on the mobs with me doing nothing else, I figured that's what it was doing.