Shha

Point taken

 

Rishkkin

It has

 

Cardynal

I would be somewhat surprised if the following bug gets fixed directly.

Mage ignites have been bugging out the entire time in BC when 2 crits land at roughly the same time. You would actually have to adjust your play style due to it. But considering it's much more uncontrollable for the "warrior ignite", I could see them looking into it a bit more.

Personally I feel that warrior dps needed to be brought down some. If you look at the WWS parses...you see quite a few warriors over 4kdps with the 17/44/0 spec.

 

dr_AllCOM3

You have to register there. That limits your feedback

I can, EU.

First, DW is taken by dual-wield . We should take the time and call it Deep Wounds, easier to read and less confusion.
Good feedback! You should post it soon.

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

Russta

Make sure your resident Protection Warrior keeps Vigilance on you at all times. That will keep your threat in check enough to go all out when combined with a Hand of Salvation or two. Well, it does for me at least.

 

Lord Pendragon

Hey guys,

With the announced change to TG, is it still possible (at level 70) for a 2x1h fury build to offer competitive dps? I'm currently running a TG-fury build dual-wielding BoHs. Our guild has just started working on the nerfed Illidan. I've always wanted glaives, but I couldn't see myself bidding on them if I'd be taking a dps hit, while rogues still see them as pure upgrade.

I guess the crux of my question is: Now that TG will only be a -5% hit penalty, is it reasonable for a warrior to run a 1h fury build with glaives?

 

Rishkkin

You could still download it, right ?

True, in the same time I had to register to post here :-P

You can still provide feedback on the simulator here, I'll try to keep an eye on the thread, it just won't be as easy to track since the thread isn't reserved to it.

 

Shha

Frankly you have 2-3 resets in TBC. You are NOT getting a glaive set, and neither your rogues are. Thats the reality. Now given freak chance you get 2 drops in a row - glaives will still be best dps a warrior can get at 70. They will be more marginal then the huge 30% dps increase - but so it will be for rogues.

One thing however - we talk about a set here. A single glaive is definitely an upgrade to your rogues, while its a downgrade (OH) or slight upgrade (MH) for you.


@Doc . It seems noone can post on US forums - I cant check it, but I cant log on for 2 days + , and it seems there were ZERO new posts on any forum i checked those past days. I just assume noone can log on (transfers dont work either). Therefore if you feel like it, you are free to post it on EU under your name or with me mentioned .

 

Moogul

You have an error in your calculations.

You are multiplying the average damage of the offhand by the offhand speed, but the average damage already includes the offhand speed - it is weapon dps * speed.

ie. you are doing:

Calculate weapon damage of your offhand
ex: 180-335 for Vanir's Right Fist, average damage is 257.5
- Add AP modifiers
ex: with 3500ap on Vanir's Right Fist, that's 3500/14=250, or 507.5
- Multiply weapon speed
ex: with Vanir's Fist, 507.5*2.5 = 1268.75

but it should be:

Calculate weapon dpds of your offhand
ex: 103 for Vanir's Right Fist,
- Add AP modifiers
ex: with 3500ap on Vanir's Right Fist, that's 3500/14=250, adding AP = 353
- Multiply weapon speed
ex: with Vanir's Fist, 353*2.5 = 884

Ijago <Casual Jerks>

 

Enkidu

I don't know if the intention is for it to double dip into the offhand penalty, I'm just stating it as a possibility since it double dips into positive damage modifiers. Since currently the offhand mechanic is rather broken no real conclusions can be drawn, on beta it's 15.9% of your average offhand damage:
OH_DW_TotalDmg = (AP/14*WpnSpd+AvgWpnDmg)*OHPen*.16

Double dipping under Deathwish it would be (for the main hand):
(AP/14*WpnSpd+AvgWpnDmg)*Deathwish*.48*Deathwish

 

Shha

There is no "double dipping" with new OH deep wounds. I explained it in my quoted post already, but in case someone omitted the quoted part.

Right now Deep Wounds from OH follow simple rule:

Take damage of your OH from paperdoll (aka ((WeaponMax+WeaponMin)/2+AP/14*WeaponSpeed)*(0.5...0.625 depending on your Dual wield spec talent) , which is already modified by the OH penalty (once)

Take 16% of the damage there.

Divide by 6 to get a single tick.

The lower then expected damage of deep wounds doesnt come from "double" or "triple" dipping like some suspected. Simply - the game doesnt recognize deep wounds past 1st lvl of talent for OH - so no matter how many talent points in Deep Wounds you have, it will act like you put 1 there.

 

Shha

THOSE warriors dps is getting seriously nerfed either way - it mostly comes from the huge deep wound escalation when using slow/fast (addressed already). With handling current bugs the dps for top warriors using dual glaives and such, will cap around 3800. its a bit too high however remember - Blizzard came back to the concept of warriors being "most gear dependant", and we talk about absolutely best-in-slot geared warriors using double legendary. For a typical sunwell warrior but without legendaries and with some upgrades to go dps will get to maybe 3200 or so.

 

• landsoul

I'm not seeing such a huge nerf if they release the new bloodthirst model. Slow / Slow beat Slow / Fast by negligible values. Even then it wouldn't matter. If you don't have both glaives and this goes through you might as well hang up your one-handers folks.

Also looks like the only time Dual Wield would be better than newTG with equal gear is pretty much glaives on a demon boss.

I second the motion that DW is already taken by Dual Wield. Can't really call Deep Wounds anything else but itself.

 

Rishkkin

DWs ?

 

Vulmio

Yes, I beg for Vigilance all the time. For Salvation, our paladins need a little practice haha

 

nfw

Intervene also reduces threat by 10%, so you can have the prot warrior intervene you when convenient, or even have two DPS warriors intervene each other.

 

Enkidu

I didn't suggest there is double dipping into the OH penalty currently, I suggested it might be a part of the intended function once deep wounds actually works properly since of how it interacts with damage modifiers (as in, keeping the offhand deep wound damage low). Unlikely, but possible.

 

Rishkkin

1.3 : Added Dual Wield Spec & OH Penalty

Deep Wounds Simulator @ Tankspot

 

• ebs2002

First of all, I'd like to apologize for not putting this in a new thread; I would if I could, but I don't have enough posts to do so yet.

So, I've been working on some numbercrunching at Tankspot, specifically Arms DPS, and the Execute Magic Number (at what rage should you execute? at what rage is it better to dump into MS/Slam/WW). Unfortunately, the TankSpot community is using my sheet, but doesn't have the theorycrafting base that EJ has and I haven't been able to elicit much technical feedback regarding my work.

The thread is: Warrior When to Execute? - TankSpot

Direct Link: TankSpot

Brief rundown: fill in your stats/spec/set bonuses/glyphs/boss armor, and it will tell you:

A) Average Hit/Crit (and glance for white attacks) damage of each ability
B) Average damage per ability usage (crit_chance*crit_dmg + hit_chance*hit_dmg)
C) Average Damage per Rage of each ability used
D) Rage value to make execute meet each ability's Damage per Rage (ie, when Executing or Slamming has the same efficiency).

Takeaways
A) More efficient executes by using (D)'s output
B) Rotation decisions. If Mortal Strikes dmg/rage is lower than Slam's dmg/rage, then you should ignore MS

It's definitely a work in progress, and I'm looking for feedback and any math errors I may have made along the way (much better to get these figured out before going deeper).

I'm also wondering if I forgot to include anything that may affect your Slam/MS/Execute damage, and any raid buffs that are not currently covered that could have significant effects on the output. For your reference, anything that affects your Rage per Second (i.e. white damage), or anything affecting the damage or cost of Slam/MS/Execute, are fair game.

I am not interested in modelling buffs that aren't up "all the time", like Recklessness, Death Wish, or Trinket clicks/procs at this time. They will be included eventually, but not until I am confident that my base numbers are correct and I have moved on to an actual DPS calculation.

I'm also looking for information on how I can determine your average DPS, specifically how to model Sudden Death procs in a spreadsheet. Also, if anybody could provide some info in calculating SEP values, it would be greatly appreciated. I know I could write a program in C# or Java to do all these calculations, but I'm much more interested in keeping this as a spreadsheet if possible.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Nevermind, I had an error in my Execute function. Seems like it was always using about minimum rage.

Rage is hard to model in a spreadsheet, especially Execute.

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

• ebs2002

Here's what I was thinking of doing to get a rough estimate.

1) Determine how much Rage/Sec you get (I have this already)
2) For a given rotation, determine how much rage/sec each ability costs (I have that, complete with factoring in rage lost while slamming)
3) After maxing out your rotation, determine how much "excess rage" you have to execute in a second.
4) Determine how frequently Sudden Death should proc for you on average (9% of swings, factoring in weapon speed and number of instants to take place in a given period of time)
5) Somehow use those two numbers to determine execute frequency and average cost.

If you have 3 rage/sec in a 53/8 spec with an execute glyph, your execute in essence costs 5 rage (10 left over from sudden death). That means that, in theory, you could execute every 1.67 seconds.

On average, in a 10sec span of time you will have:
1 Overpower (30% chance every 3secs)
2 Mortal Strikes (assuming imp MS and it's in your rotation)
2 Slams (assuming 1slam fits into your rotation easily)
3-4 White Attacks (assuming 3.5spd weapon with some haste thrown in)

9 attacks in 10secs amounts to roughly one attack each second (too lazy to use the calculator), and so you should get a SD proc every 11secs or so.

If it fires every 11secs, and you have an excess of 3 rage/sec, you'll be executing for approx 33 rage.

 

Hisstok

Quick question

as a 2h arms build, how are you guys stancing? eg: do you stay in battle stance the entire fight? do you goto bezerk to pop reck? what abilities do you then use?

I've been going execute -> zerk stance -> bloodrage -> recklessness -> MS -> execute if it is up, if not WW -> execute if it is up, if not bladestorm (to enjoy the +3% crit) finish with an execute then back to battle stance

In my mind, it seems like this is a good cycle to do once a fight (or twice if it's a long one) since it only costs 1 gcd to pop reck and all it costs me is ~1 overpower, but I'm not noticing a dps increase from it, though this may be attributed to the massive lag the last few days, Comments?

 

• ebs2002

I had been staying in battle stance the entire fight. I bladestorm in it because I like to dump all my rage after it ends before executing, and that includes Overpower (Execute with full rage is nice to see a big number, but it's crappy use of your rage).

Your cycle seems like it would be more DPS, although a lot of micromanagement and thinking involved. I may try it, but with how easy fights have been lately I'm not even that worried about pushing my DPS even higher and prefer to just coast. I know, I'm awful...

 

Russta

I never leave battle stance unless there's an absolute need to Intercept.

On a related note, I've discovered a new fondness for Retaliation. Pop it with Sweeping Strikes before a Bladestorm on a nice big pack and watch the numbers roll!

 

Rishkkin

Not a big damage increase, but squeeze in an Heroic Strike just before activating BladeStorm.

you can put that in a macro if you want to minimize the time between your HS queue and BlS