Merple

Imp Intercept v. Heroic Leap

While this is probably immediately evident to everyone but me, Heroic Leap isn't all that much more mobility than Imp Intercept, in spite of what it may seem. Mobility on Demand, perhaps, but not so much more actual movement.

I don't know how to do the math for this, but I'm sure someone does.

Were you to use your movement abilities on cooldown, as I my ugly scribblings show, you'd actually only get ~10-15% (not sure which) more movement with Heroic Leap than you would with Imp Intercept. For instance, in a 10 minute fight, you'd get 30 Improved Intercepts OR 20 Intercepts + 13 Heroic Leaps (33 Movements)

Either way, the power of Heroic Leap comes more from the ability to use it shortly after an Intercept, which definitely has it's uses. Mobility on demand + Slightly more overall mobility = Better.

I was just surprised. I figured at the outset that a HL build would be _far_ more mobile, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.

 

PsyBomb

Whistles, that is the problem and where the dehaste affects AP. The number used in the calculation formula is the one listed on the weapon's speed, NOT the much slower speed it'll actually be striking at. This is the same thing that makes haste (and Flurry) so good for Fury, the calculation is based on the written speed and not the actual one.

Assuming 1400 AP for simplicity, you get 100 DPS out of it. Thus, it'll increase a white speed 3.6 weapon's strike by 360 damage, whether it's hitting at 3.6, 4.2, or 2.8.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Daronsk

Having taken a look at a variety of the specs being discussed in this thread I'm really liking the 27/44 spec.
(http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...12050110501300)

However there are still a few questions to be answered about this spec and its mechanics...
1) would it be better to go 3/3 sudden death or 3/3 bloodsurge?
It seems to me in early content when your relative crit% is still low bloodsurge would be the better choice, but would this (and when) change as your crit % becomes higher and rage generaton increases?

2) Fast/Fast or Slow/Fast?
Obviously in going Fast/Fast you would gimp your Slam and Whirlwind damage, but at the same time you'd be drastically increasing the uptime of Sudden Death. Also something to keep in mind is as your gear improves the relative amount of time you spend whirlwinding would decrease so maybe this is another "when to switch" issue.

 

Deathwing

Perhaps I'm taking the phrase far too literally. When I read "negative haste affects AP", I was expecting something like it reduced the damage of your Bloodthirst.

However, you mean it affects AP->DPS conversion? That is, at 0% haste, X AP converts to Y DPS, and at -20% haste, X AP converts to Z DPS, Z being less than Y?

 

tib

To avoid any further derail, you are. I simply ment negative haste affects both the wpn and the ap contribution on your autoattacks. Nothing more, nothing less

 

Deathwing

I like that spec too currently because of TG's current implementation. But why stop at Fast/Fast? Why not get two really fast daggers(don't know how common 1.3 speed daggers will be) and then try to focus haste and crit.

 

Crimsonstorm

14 AP results in an increase in damage per swing of 1*Base Speed.

So for a 3.8 speed weapon, 14 AP = +3.8 damage per swing.
For a 1.6 speed weapon, 14 AP = +1.6 damage per swing. (To use extreme examples).

With Titan's Grip, your 3.8 speed weapon now swings only every 4.56 seconds (before haste and flurry). But you still get only 3.8 more damage per 14 AP, not 4.56. So basically, Titan's Grip reduces your white damage by 20%. (Or to be more accurate, you do (1/1.2) = 83.3% as much white damage as before).


So lets say you had the choice of using 100 dps 1H weapons, or 130 dps 2H weapons. And you have 4200k buffed AP.

White dps with the 1Hers is 100(weapon)+300(from AP) = 400 dps, before accounting for misses, crits, armor, etc. (The OH is 62.5% as much).
White dps with the 2Hers and Titan Grip is 130(weapon)+300(AP) = 430, multiplied by .8333 to acocunt for the negative haste of titans grip = 358, before accounting for misses, crits, armor, etc. (The OH is again 62.5% as much).

This results in a loss of about 10% of your white dps.

Now, your special attack dps will increase, and also youll get more stats from the 2Hers. This ends up resulting in a SMALL dps increase, for 5/5 Titan Grip (around 5% I think). HOWEVER, it also severely messes up your rage generation and thus means that you wont be nearly as close to your theoretical max dps. So in reality I dont think youll see much gain at all. Certianly less than if you instead put the Titan Grip points in Axe or Sword spec I think.

 

Daronsk

1) Dagger are not axes, therefore you would not have axe spec.
2) Daggers are normalized at a faster speed then one-handed axes,swords,maces,fists so rage gen and ap would be negativly effected.

 

Muggins

I would say that it depends a lot on how it defines its target, the talent description says 'slam down on all targets within 5 yards of the target area' which would lead me to believe you choose your destination through a placeable aoe target similar to blizzard/rain of fire etc which you then leap to. If this is the case you have the added tactical benefit of moving to an area that doesn't contain any targets which, while you waste the damage/stun done by the ability, could save your neck(behind on the heigan dance? leap ahead and live! getting trained by the opposing arena team? leap behind that pillar! want to get from the blacksmith in ab to the stables quickly? take a flying leap over the water! etc).

Alternatively it could just use your pre-defined target mob as the focus and the aoe stun affects the area around them, in which case it would indeed be a slightly better but much more expensive intercept.

Personally i'm hoping for the first version.

Edit: Just found this video on youtube: YouTube - WotLK (beta) Fun with Heroic Leap which actually seems to show it acting in a blink style. So while its able to move you to a space without a target (hurrah!) you don't seem to have much control over where exactly you're likely to land, so no leaping onto AV towertops (boo!).

 

nfw

The biggest draw of heroic leap is that it appears to be stance indepedent, so you won't lose all your rage just to chase someone down

 

Merple

I wasn't really commenting so much on how it worked, but more on how often. That said, I kind of assumed that it would be your first version, which, you're right, is a much more interesting and useful mechanic.

I was simply commenting that HL builds don't move THAT much more often.

And interestingly enough, a MS warrior with the 4/4 PvP gear bonus gets 40 movements in a 10 minute fight, v. 33 for a HL build in PVE gear, so there you go.

-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.

 

Deathwing

On what though, whirlwind? Is going from fastest axe(1.5) to fastest dagger(1.3), about a 15% increase in attack/s, worth 5% loss to crit and a lower damage whirlwind?

 

Muggins

This is true, but its only movement toward a hostile target which you can't always bank on, whereas heroic leap is movement anywhere irrelevant of target. So While theorectically you're getting more movement out of imp intercept in practice it won't always be viable making them much closer or perhaps edging more towards HL depending on the fight in question(heigan or alar for example).

 

Tornaz

You misunderstand. The change from a 1handed weapon to a dagger is not just about the weapon itself.

Daggers are an entirely different weapon type, and use a much lower weapon normalisation factor (1.7 for daggers as opposed to 2.4) for AP contribution to instant weapon attacks.

 

Deathwing

I don't misunderstand at all. What instant weapon attacks would a DW fury warrior be doing besides WW?

 

Nite_Moogle

Slam. Bloodsurge sort of sucks if you're using a dagger.

At its most rough calculation, Titan Grip is +20% yellow damage, -20% white damage. This looks good on paper, but it breaks down when you use weapons that are slower than the 2H normalized speed. As AP increases the contribution of AP to your yellow attacks does not scale as fast as your AP contribution to white attacks and TG slowly falls behind despite the advantage of no glancing. Bloodsurge is its ace in the hole and some heavy math is going to be required to figure out where the break points are.

 

Deathwing

Slam is not normalized, weapon type will not make any difference. In the case of slam, it will just be weapon speed, and some axes, tanking ones mainly, can be fast already.

 

Tornaz

Why on earth would you be using anything other than a Titan's Grip 2-hander on a Bloodsurge build? Slam is built (rage cost and damage balance wise) with the assumption that it's being used with a 2 hander. It has to be, or it would be overpowered.

 

Deathwing

I never said I would use Bloodsurge or Slam. I think I'd rather max out Furious Resolve with a build centered around Sudden Death.

Anyway, now that's out of the way, back to the real question at hand: does using two real fast daggers impact anything besides Poleaxe spec and WW's damage? If no, I think this could be a viable build. Besides, who else is going to take the fast daggers? Hunters can't have everything.

 

nakoda

quick question: are they making raid mobs stunnable again?

I ask because of the new DMG aspect to Revenge, and Shockwave. Also, is Conc Blow getting a threat buff (I don't think so but some how that question got buzzed inside my brain and it will not go away till I ask someone)?

 

• adamb10

I just thought of something. With the Shield Block change, how will guild wanting to do Illidan post BC be able to tank him? Doesnt Illidan cast shear like every 10 seconds?

 

Pyros

If you do it at 80, you'll just tank the shear, it's not that bad really. If you do BT at 70 well... yeah I guess you're not killing Illidan. Do people actually do lvl 60 raids at 60 currently though? Don't know of any, I know pugs sometimes go to MC with not maxxed people and stuff, but it shouldn't really matter.

 

Fellwraith

You can also be passively immune to shear with the right gems, enchants and gear. It's much more time consuming to get geared up to tank it, but it's do-able as a warrior without shieldblock.

Ideally you'd just use a paladin if you're undergeared for it.

 

Gruntle

I think a Sudden death build with fast daggers might actually work quite ok, you will have puny WW damage but the main offensive move will be Sudden death executes anyway. I don't think this type of build will beat a TG build (once they fix the talent, I don't think the current version will be the final one), it would be strange if deep fury wouldn't be no 1 on individual damage.

However a Sudden death build with BF and Trauma (something like 37/34/0) might actually be a very good option for BF builds. This type of build would be a Sudden death+Bleed build where keeping up Rend is going to be important (but less problematic than for other builds since executes will empty your rage bar before stance changes). But fast-fast will not be good for that since the bleed damage (at least Rend and DW) scales with weapon speed, thus slow-fast onehanders will likely be the best setup (also enabling you to get some extra punch from a weapon spec, likely axe spec since sword spec will only really work with slow weapons after the 6 sec hidden cd change).

edit: Come to think of it, isn't it quite strange that Sudden death that favors fast weapons are put in arms, where all of the other talents really work best with slow 2-handers? Sudden death is an oddball talent in my opinion, it would have been an excellent addition to the pre-wotlk fury builds but with TG and slow weapons it is no longer very useful for anything (well not for pve anyway, unless you count the BF build I posted above).

Adding some more comments to other posts to avoid making a new one.
I agree with landsouls analysis, TG will have to be changed in some way for it to be viable. TG is a cool talent but I really think it will be hard to balance it properly. There are so many things that need to be taken into account that I don't really think we can theorycraft how it will pan out. The main problem is going to be rage management, getting ~50 rage per 4.5 sec on average (about what you would get using a renormalized rage gain, assuming a c-value of 320 instead of 275, and with Cataclysm's edge+ 3500AP) is not going to cut it. Even if we end up getting 75 rage per dual swing on average it will not work since there will be a lot of surplus rage after crits. You'll need huge amounts of haste to get rage generation to be workable.

 

kharpalo

this is something i did on other forums and i might got the whole concept wrong so feel free to enlighten me.
I edited the maths later on the original post so it might seem kind a stupidly written.

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if im not totally wrong haste benefits titans grip 20% more but cant be arsed to do the math now, but the idea is basicly that you get 20% bigger chunk reduced off from your swingtimer for same haste cause of the 20% talented attackspeed reducement while the weaponspeed it calculates attack power stays same.

So conclusion 10 haste while dw one-handers equals actually 12 haste if you are using titans grip. Is it smart to stack haste in expence of AP?, propably not if you are not dw 2 handers so its hard to doany speculations until we see glimpses of lvl 80 dungeon loots.

ok here is simplified pattern lets asume 3.8 sec weapon

3.8*0.2(titans grip)=0.76
0.76+3.8=4.56 seconds as a final swingtime with penalty, now lets include flurry for both non-TG and TG builds

without TG lets asume 2.6 weapon with 4/5 flurry to make maths very simple

2.6*0.2=0.52
2.6-0.52=2.08

with TG

4.56*0.2=0.912
4.56-0.912=3.648

now we compare speed increase we got from flurry to the actual weapon speeds which are used as modifier for attackpower

with 2.6 weapon

0.52/2.6=0.2 giving the same 20%

now with 3.8 weapon

0.912/3.8=0.24 giving 24%

This means haste ap ratio is 20% better for titan grip builded warriors than it would actually be if you were using one handers unless i fucked up maths somehow but looks pretty simple to me