Mumbles

Well, I can assume it might help a bit, but I wouldn't think it's significant enough, 5% dodge in a clothie which has 0% for starters is a bit I dunno, irrelevant ? specially with multiple mobs (or why would he be AoE'ing ?), and 10% threat reduction in an AoE ? Even with the new paladin 'BoS' Hand of Salvation plus 10% less threat, plus mage/lock own threat reduction talents I don't think a warrior would be able to hold that agro.

I agree it might help slightly in that specific situation but I wouldn't pick a talent for that. Only thing I might think of right now would be a rogue off tanking an add, or even an enhancement shaman, but with shockwave, incite, and the new AP threat scaling TC it makes that off tanking irrelevant and unnecessary imho.

Any other ideas ? (I'm being honest here, not trying to be sarcastic or anything, someone might think about something I haven't thought of yet)

Best regards,

 

Ballistae

It's implicit in the talent description that you more or less expects the person to be targetted to get aggro at some point or another (why else the instant cooldown of taunt). 5% dodge can make the target survive a teensy bit better until you're able to taunt the mob of him/her, I suppose.

 

Fellwraith

It changes your taunt priority in 5 man's and 10 man's if you know one of the guys in your party gives you a free cooldown on the ability. There's plenty of times that wires get crossed or someone gets a bad case of the stupids and splits dps.

The 5% dodge is really pretty immaterial, but it does double their dodge from 5% base to 10%. Nice to have, but not the reason you take the talent. It's the instant taunt cooldown and passive threat reduction that makes it useful. I also don't see a cooldown on the ability, which means if a ranged dps pulls aggro you can hit them with vigilance, intervene to them with safeguard and get the mob back as soon as it gets to the dpser (edit: knowing full well they aren't going to die with 60% damage reduction and you taking the first hit).

Edit 2: You can also play games with the ability and use it to refresh your taunt cooldown after the target gets hit with a ranged attack.

 

kargathia

With the usual damage of everything above entry level raids (aka kara) 5% dodge extra on overpulling is about as reliable as gambling on a D/C of your opponents when playing arena: it may save the day, but probably you still end up smashed.

This as rogue who tried offtanking gruul a few times when the offtank died, 30-40% dodge buffed, and still I ended up smashed.

"...vincer potero dentro a me l'ardore
ch'i' ebbi a divenir del mondo esperto
e de li vizi umani e del valore"

 

Mumbles

Good point there, I was looking at it without taking into consideration the taunt cd refresh, was taking into consideration the 5% dodge and the 10% threat reduction only.

I'm assuming that it's one of those abilities that you turn on and it's stays on until you cancel it (pretty much like a paladin aura), so, it can help on those unconscious dpsers.

It has potential but I don't know, I feel that protection warriors should have a bit more attention talent wise specially after Paladins and Deathknights having our Thunderclap version with the inherent class utility in raids.

Best regards,

 

Jakuniku

Maybe a good use for the 5% dodge could be for a boss like Patchwerk where the extra mitigation might help for the hateful strike soakers?

 

Zerai

It seems a waste for such specific encounters.

Also with the fact of it seems clearly designed for more 5 man play, but given the shield slam being trained now, it seems most 5 man tanks will probably be fury/arms and the prot warriors will be more raid oriented.

Really hoping it gets modified to something better.

 

Fugazi

10% less threat is a big deal on some encounters where agro is an issue too.

 

Njial

I was looking over the Prot Tree as a whole, and was thinking about how it compared to some of the other talent trees in the game. Anyone else thing it would be a really big help to us if one or more of our 5/5 talents got knocked down to 3/3. Like say, Shield Spec, Anticipation, or Toughness. Cruelty or Deflection getting knocked down would help as well.

That's what happened to druids with Imp Mark, Sublety, and Natures Focus, Hunters with Imp Conc Shot, Pallies with Imp Devo Aura, Rogues with Vile Poisons, Shamans with Healing Focus, and Warlocks with Supression and Aftermath. Why not us?

Could also perhaps make it better by making some of the less used talents attractive by lessening their ranks...

Imp Bloodrage, Imp Revenge, Imp Def Stance, and I would argue that Safeguard will most likely be added to the list as well. There aren't alot of of single point talents around, but it wouldn't hurt to have a few more.

Duty is heavier than a mountain, Death is lighter than a feather.

 

Bahkauv

Warlock´s Suppression was changed so much, that you can hardly compare the old and new talent.

Old: 3/5 was 6% chance to hit (affliction spells only)
New: 3/3 is 3% chance to hit and 6% less mana cost (affliction spells only)

Basically, as mana for affliction is a non-issue, you get half of the old effect for the same talent points invested. And a quite useless effect, as you still need 202 hit rating for Soul Shatter and Shadow Bolt, at least.

Along those lines Toughness 3/3 would give you 3% more armor and 6% chance to hit with a 2H weapon ;-)

Regarding Vigilance: In MH we always have a Tank-Paladin, and it is usually the same Warlock that draws aggro after some time. It would be a nice talent to make it easier for another tank to grab the bad guys before they kill the Warlock.

 

Hidden

Your talent change couldn't have had anything to do with every caster hit talent being changed to 1%/point at all?
And by the way, 6% less mana cost means 6% less wasted cooldowns on Dark Pact or Life Tap, I'd hardly call that useless.

More on topic:
I'd really like it if they combined some more talents like they did for other classes, some ideas of what could be merged:
Improved Shield Block and Improved Shield Wall
Improved Defensive Stance and Shield Mastery
Improved Sunder Armor and Focused Rage

I'd also like it if some talents that are only useful in special situations were either merged with other talents or got an additional effect. Safeguard for example looks pretty good for PvP/5-man instances but I can't really find a good use for it in raids when looking at current encounters. Going through Sunwell bosses:
Kalecgos: As you're tanking most of the time and pulling aggro is nearly impossible anyway it's pretty useless here
Brutallus: I can't see an use here either, pulling aggro is most of the time a wipe or the player is dead anyway, Intervening the other tank would probably be a bad idea due to positioning and the possibility of getting too many stacks
Felmyst: Maybe you could save someone who has pulled aggro when bombing the adds, but that shouldn't happen anyway
Twins: Largely depends on strategy, having done reverse only I can't think of any use here
M'uru: Don't know about the Void Walker tank but it's pretty useless when tanking an entrance with a melee group, Intervene has a minimum range after all, doesn't look really helpful for Entropius either
Kil'Jaeden: If you even have a Prot Warrior here he still can't rally make use of Safeguard, maybe use it on the one that gets illusions but it's not really needed

Generally Intervene is more of a tool to move faster in raids/raid encounters and I don't really see the talent helping here and I don't like "wasting" 3 talent points for something very situational either, it could for example additionally increase your attack speed by 1.5/3/4.5% so you'd have at least some use of it when you're just standing there and tanking that big boss.

Edit: Another idea when looking at the talent tree would be merging improved Demoralizing Shout into improved Taunt, in my opinion the top of the Fury tree needs some changes anyway.

 

Mode

I agree that it would be a great pvp and 5-man talent, but there's so much good stuff in prot that I just can't justify it. It'd be nice if they swapped it with relentless assault. Lowering the cooldown on revenge is something every warrior would love while giving pvp warriors a snare break would ensure our viability in WOTLK (although it would probably need to be changed to just intervene; a snare break every 15 seconds+a 3 sec stun on a target would be severely overpowered).

 

Tornaz

I'd argue that some amalgamation of talents into one would be more worthwhile. Improved Disarm is a primary candidate for this - if the talent was amalgamated into Improved Revenge, then it would be a useful effect.

As it stands, the Protection tree is too bloated to ever consider taking Imp Disarm, simply becauise it's not critical for the purpose of raid tanking, and the tree holds too many other useful talents. I find it difficult to make a protection warrior build that works as it is - I'm already contemplating not taking Imp. Thunderclap for my prot build, and forcing an Arms warrior to do that for me.


All of the 10% spell hit talents have been changed in a similar way. Suppression, Shadow Focus and Arcane Focus.

It's a shame really, Arcane Focus gave my mage a real major difference in equipment priority than other mages. I presume they have a good reason for it.

 

Muggins

I think you've misunderstood what i wrote, either that or i'm doing the exact same thing to you now.

What i was saying is that i agree that for a main tank the hybrid build wouldn't be suitable because the drop in threat output would hold back your raid far too much, but on an offtank that isn't always called on to be tanking on a boss(i'm thinking mainly on T6 content here where most fights were 1-2 tank bosses) the drop in threat shouldn't be too much of an issue, especially in light of bringing the debuffs to the raid.

I hope that clears things up a little.

Edit: Interestingly just after i typed this i found this little quote:

"The goal is for Arms or Fury Warrior to be able to tank nearly as well as a Prot Warrior in terms of threat generation. Where the Prot Warrior is unique is in his defensive utility and playstyle."

Source

 

Deathwing

Looks like the amount of spell miss on a boss is being lowered from 17% to 9% and that last percentage is bridgeable too. Got that from the warlock thread.

 

Suesse

Haven't we heard this before though? I guess we'll see what happens, it sounds like the talent tree isn't nearly done.

 

Merple

This makes sense. An off-spec warrior should be able to hold threat just fine, the issue is really whether they can stand up to the raid boss as well as the prot warrior can.

It's also a question of maintaining the same threat generation while taking less damage.

Good in theory. We'll see where it goes.

-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.

 

Three

For me the point was as an OT build, with a side of additional survivability/utility in PvP.


Last I looked, MS was usable in all Stances, just as Shield Slam is.

If they are going to share a cooldown (and that would be a bummer), then the build is far less fun.

 

Hisstok

I dont know, I tank pretty well for about three seconds when I pull aggro, seems to be about right, just need more survivability.

 

Mumbles

I second the intention of changing allot of the protection tree as it stands. Taking your intervene example, the movement impairing effect component of the talent should actually be a skill component and not added through the talent. The damage reduction component seems good to stay on the talent, and it is actually useful, our tanks (with the exception of some fights) have a happy trigger finger on intervene, and it's always good to have that dmg reduction component, but, I agree it's not a 'Must have' talent.

My current concern at the moment, is the change of protection tree to make a protection warrior wanted in a raid.
If we think about that blue post stating the intention of a DPS warrior to hold agro as a protection warrior, the changes other tanking classes got, mostly ripped out from the warriors (blatantly paladin thunderclap version) I foresee some min max guild ditching protection warriors at all in raids, at least progression raids, just have to think Brutallus, it's better to have a feral druid, protection paladin and a deathknight in a raid in WotLK than it will be having a protection warrior, as they bring alot more raid utility, from blessings, to a casual heal, battle rezz, 5% crit aura, raid buffs and boss debuffs etc.

With the crushing blows removal (or change as they haven't been removed at all it seems) protection warriors loose they're biggest advantage of being the MT, the talents we have at the moment, seem more focused in improving the warrior tanking in 5 man content instead of the big game objectives, raiding, Vigilance doesn't deserve to be a 31 point talent, Shockave even less a 51 point, I would put Shockwave as a 31, and find something new and raid focused talent for the 51 point.

Best regards,

 

Fellwraith

It's been said numerous times in this thread and on the beta forums that vigilance is being changed. Bitching about a crappy talent that isn't going to go live is a waste of time.

Paladins were just as good as a warrior was at preventing crushing blows (and even better than a warrior in some cases).

As the guy who's setting up tanking assignments every night, I welcome having interchangeable tanking classes. I really don't want there to be one class that's dramatically better as an offtank or a maintank for every single fight. It's fine if 2 of them are slightly better than the other 2 for some fights, but it shouldn't always be the case. It means I can take a night off without feeling guilty about it and I don't have to make people respec or call the raid if people can't make it that night. Each tanking class should share some of the same basic components but not have all of them (it's fine if they function slightly different but have the same result, e.g. other classes getting a thunderclap-like slowing effect).

I don't need to be a special flower to guarantee my raid spot. Good players will still get their spot even if every single class has similar capabilities. All these changes do is make it easier for a raid leader to get a competent tank into a fight they need them on, rather than requiring a niche tanking class to be successful (there's nothing worse than showing up for M'uru attempts only to discover both of your protadins are MIA for the night). There's still a lot of things in the warrior ability list and talent trees to differentiate them.

It's also worth noting that lots of people don't want to tank. They like to see big numbers or brag about how huge their dps is. Most people don't understand that tanking is largely a selfless role in the raid, much like healing. Having a dps'er re-roll to deathknight doesn't guarantee they'll want to continue tanking once they get a taste of it. I don't think you'll have a huge amount of competition, even with a fourth class capable of tanking.

 

Morgo7h

Sorry if this has been brought up already-

I am not sold on the new talent "Incite" being used, as some have suggested, in place of Cruelty. Just within my own playstyle, I don't use cleave while tanking, and I rarely use Thunderclap outside of five-mans except situationally and to apply the debuff. While I feel the 15% crit gain to Heroic Strike would be beneficial, it feels too unreliable (being crit and all) to take the 5% crit out of Cruelty from my white attacks, Shield Slam (which will be up more often), and Revenge (which benefit even more from crit, I suppose, with the improved version, albeit slight.)

That's why I'm considering bribing an arms warrior or an off-tank to take Imp TClap for me, so I can have both Cruelty and Incite. I just don't know if I can live without knowing that I'll always have the extra slowing effect on my target- this is a tough choice, because I feel that situations and raid compisitions are rarely consistent enough to sacrifice taking Imp Tclap and having someone who might not always show up do the job for you- a prot warrior with upwards of 25-30% crit on Heroic Strike dumps would be interesting to see, though.

This brings me to the trend that is obvious in these new talents- with the removal of raid-wide threat reduction in the form of Blessing of Salvation, the slight buff to our threat capabilities, and the distinct talents that are necessary to support that slight buff, I predict that we will see a much clearer line between Warrior MTs and OTs. Our role is all about increasing success by reducing risk, and we will probably need every talent point worth of threat capability we can get early on in WotLK until we determine just how the tanking scene is going to play out. It's an opportunity for our class to shine, really, and will further the gap between skilled tanks and those who need not apply.

 

Mumbles

I read the vigilance things regarding future changes, i just spoke about it's place in the talent tree, and as another example of talents which are not directed (or primarily directed) to raiding.

I second everything you said, and fully agree regarding the raiding spots for tanks, my 'rant' or 'whine' if you prefer, was towards not wanting a prot warrior at all, simply because they bring no raid utility, and, as far as we know at the moment, there is no game combat mechanic that favours the protection warrior.
I'm not saying I want fights that can only be done with protection warriors or favour them allot more than others, what I would like in WotLK is a requirement for a balanced raid group which can complete the whole instance without changes in raid composition along the way, in order to defeat a goal, all tanks should be wanted exactly the same, running raids with, preferably, 1 tank of each class/spec which would be the optimum situation, but in the case of absences the ability to have for example, a feral druid replacing the missing protection warrior for that raid without a big penalty to the progression of the raid.

The way I see it now (disclaimer, I know it's going to be looked at, this is just my personal opinion of how things are as we know it) is that in min max hardcore guilds that want to down bosses at all costs, a protection warrior wouldn't bring any more benefit than any of all other tanks, because of they're lack of raid utility and the ability of the other tanks to be able to do the job the same or even better than a protection warrior.

Best regards,

 

muulan

now that pally's got their shield slam and devastate...
give us consecrate

They are no longer specialized as AOE tank since they have all the (if not more) tools for MT
Remove the 4target cap on Thunderclap.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....53665HiXkH.png

 

Njial

Yeah, Thunder Clap never did very much damage or threat, always though the cap seemed a bit random.

Duty is heavier than a mountain, Death is lighter than a feather.