Rub

Perhaps I should have worded it differently. I think going forward every tanking class will be, or at least should be able to tank any given boss fight, minus anything that's a "gimmick".

I was thinking gear and spec wise it will be easier to probably have a Death Knight decked out in resist gear to tank the elemental boss over the other classes, but that doesn't mean a warrior, pally or bear couldn't do it as well, it would just be more of a "perk" to have a DK available.

 

Rustik

Blizzard stated in the WWI that the intend was for all tanks to be viable for 5 mans (thus warriors get Ground slam for aoe threat and a buff to t-clap).

But in a raid setting, the tanks will have certain specialties, The warrior (supposedly) being the single target shield wall with pure damage reduction against a hard hitter, a pally being the aoe tanker, for lots of little'uns, and the death knight for magic damage.

All tanks can be used to tank a 5 man. But in a raid setting there will be encounters where a specific tank is -preferrable-, if not required.

 

• Morsexy

I just find this type of post so overly distressing.

Next we're going to read how good 51 pt arms is since you could spend all 10 seconds of your disarm using bladestorm!

I don't think in my current flame tank gear I'm even at the cap with anticipation. Frankly him not coming out and saying "well certain gear will have to be rebalanced etc to compensate for this" makes me just more disgusted.

We get current wonderful examples of this idiocy at work with [Shadowmoon Insignia] and [Steely Naaru Sliver], I mean haha trick or treat?

 

king_darius

Can you explain the Shockwave numbers you're seeing? Is AP increasing faster than we'd heard?

 

mondar13

Hello,
I've modeled TG vs. 1 hand dual wield in a C++ program that i would like reviewed. If this needs its own thread please let me know. The C++ program is here
http://pastebin.com/m1cf1a121

Please, would someone care to check my formulas and algorithms?

I've added an update that models WW
http://pastebin.com/d7b001ac9

 

Liar

Do you mean in tanking gear? Because I got these crits in my DPS set with around 2.5k-2.8k AP buffed.

EDIT: TC is also doing upwards of 500 dmg in DPS gear. I started replacing cleave with TC spam because its better DPR (and I DPS in battle stance on beta compared to zerker stance with dual wield on live).

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Alaron

With the the addition of the Death Knight class, competition is steeper than ever before for melee DPS spots in a 25 man raid. While the introduction of raidwide shouts are a great change for the flexibility of group composition, the fact that there are only two shout buffs means that the synergy benefits of bringing more than two warriors sharply declines. I think that it is fair to say that the majority of raids, particularly those with a desire to maximize their efficiency, will be looking at only taking 2 warriors - 1 tank, and 1 dps.

As such, the location of Blood Frenzy is a point of major concern. While it has received some discussion earlier on in this thread, it hasn't been really been discussed recently. I wanted to briefly bring up the topic again, since I think that it is very important, especially in light of the upcoming changes. I'm not sure how heavily the blizzard designers read the feedback in these forums, but since I can't post on the official beta ones at the moment, I figured I'd bring up my specific thoughts on the issue here.

The Blood Frenzy debuff provides a 4% bonus to all physical damage. In an average 25 man raid, we can assume an average of about 10 people whose DPS will directly benefit from this buff (including the tank, whose increased threat will benefit everyone). This 4% damage bonus for 10 people can be roughly considered equivalent to a 40% personal dps increase in terms of what the warrior brings to the raid. Obviously, Blood Frenzy is an amazing warrior talent. Unfortunately, it is so amazing, that it is essentially a must have in a 25-man environment. Why is this unfortunate, you might ask?

The problem is that the location of this talent, and the lack of any equivalent in fury makes the deep fury tree completely unviable if you only take one DPS warrior. If this is the case, you MUST spec at least 32 points into arms. Further, without bringing battle shout to a second group, that third warrior brings next to no raid synergy. When you look at almost every other spec in the game (except rogues, who bring essentially unmatched personal DPS at endgame), they bring some form of synergy beyond their personal DPS. If you enjoy the fury playstyle, the best fury that you can hope for is to play as a 32/39 hybrid. There is nothing that you could spend those points from arms on in deep fury that could possibly provide an equivalent 40% DPS boost. No matter how good your personal DPS as Titan's Grip (assuming that the talent was changed), it simply wouldn't be comparable without creating a pretty massive personal DPS imbalance.

My proposed solution? We have increasnginly been seeing buffs to other classes to give various playstyles more raid synergy and desireability. This is great. In fact, this is why Blood frenzy was intitially introduced. Fighting with a single Two-Handed weapon is a completely different playstyle than dual wielding one handers, which is different than the new concept of dual wielding two-handers. As such, blood frenzy was introduced to give arms a place in a raid. While traditionally the personal DPS tree, I think that deep fury needs to be able to pick up some sort of additional raid synergy talent to make it a desireable choice instead of or in addition to Blood Frenzy. Obviously, in keeping with the original intent of the blood frenzy talent, enhancing the overwhelmingly lackluster deep arms talents would also be valuable so that the playstyle associated with deep arms remains a viable option. This would provide a potential raid desireability and viability for all three DPS warrior playstyles that will be presented in this expansion.

I'm aware that they are currently working on a major update, and that groundless speculation doesn't add much to the discussion. However, I really believe that the lack of a group synergy buff in deep fury that would compete with blood frenzy is a significant problem that needs to be addressed in the upcoming warrior update.

 

Shha

None of the resistance fights require you to be uncrittable though. Close is nice, but you dont HAVE to be uncrittable. The fight already takes into account the possibility (unremovable) of getting no resist - so quad damage. Double damage from crits doesnt sound all that bad in comparison.

I never really understood the huge pressure on being uncrittable on fights like illidan flames. Fire resist is obviously your main stat but just do some quick math. Lets say you lack 10 defense to get capped. Thats 0.4% chance to be critted. The fight assumes variation of going from 25% damage on majority of the fight to 3% of 75% hits and 1% of 100% hits. The only time when crit is "worse" then just an unresisted hit (which happens pretty frequently) is when you combine 75% or 100% damage hit with a crit. Chance of that occuring = 4%x0.4% = 0.004%. Once in 25000 hits. With tclapped attack speed of 2.4 it adds up to SEVENTEEN hours of tanking a flame or hydross, before your lack of crit immunity gets you to the point where it can result in a hit larger then expected.

Sure thats statistics, and the hit can happen right away. But honestly there is plenty of things that can go wrong in any boss fight with far greater possibility. I understand the idea of gearing for "worst case scenarios", but there are certain limits.

In short - Hydross/Flames, never really required a crit immunity, and because of resist mechanics (1% always to get QUAD damage blow), I doubt any resist fight will.

 

Zaroua

I came to a similar conclusion and made a post in this thread a few weeks ago. Blood Frenzy/Trauma are too good to pass up, yet aside from the few early tier talents in Fury, a DPS Warrior adds nothing to the raid - unless Warrior DPS is higher than other classes, I see little benefit to bringing more than 1 DPS Warrior instead of getting more raid synergy from another class. And yes, here's to hoping that the changes they are bringing to Warriors are better than what the scary "Warriors dropped Anticipation in T6" post portends.

Dogma also claims that God has a sense of humor and at times presents Him as a joker of sorts, thus again lowering Him to human level. While I am certain God has a "sense of humor" since He gave it to us, I find it most difficult to believe He finds humor in sin since He will cast the unforgiven sinner into the lake of fire for eternity. Not very funny at all.

 

Shha

Well what i suggested is one of two:

- Move BF to fury

or

- Give a real 51 pointer to fury - aka what im looking at is maybe a 3rd shout as 51 point talent in fury? A haste shout? ArP shout?

 

Alaron

Though not specifically referring to warriors, there is an interesting post about on the beta DK forums about raid debuffs. It seems that they are going to be taking a look at debuffs in general. The intent is apparently "to combine some when [they] can and give different specs alternate ways of providing the same debuff." (Source) I'll be interested to see what (if anything) they come up with for fury.

 

Darmon

The DK beta forums contains much more about the general design philosophy of the developers. Take this blue post for instance
source

For me it opens up a lot to speculate about the role of the warrior and the difference between specs.

 

◊ Birdemani

Does that mean they want all classes to be able to tank as 0/0/0? I'm curious to see them explain that one a bit more.

 

Kandryn

Regarding Blood Frenzy, Raid Synergy, and 25-man Raiding, don't you think that if you take Bf in the arm tree, you should push to 37points and take trauma? You can still manage to get 5/5 flurry and also bloodthirst in the fury tree to get something like 37/3x.

I am the Bf warrior of my raid and i am considering that kind of spec, but i can't decide wether i will go dual or keep a 2hander since slam cycle is almost out of the question with the wf change.

 

Machinator

I havent looked at the other classes as in depth, but with so many debuffs and bleeds Im not sure how much Trauma will be 'need to have'. I think its better as the thing Arms brings to the raid but not needed, as they tried to do with BF. (I think that was the intention?)

What would people think of a compromise with BF? If Deep Wounds are rolling, they could be a decent amount of damage, or at least certainly more than now. Why not just switch Deep Wounds and Blood Frenzy. Fury will put 17 in arms anyway, and the loss of Deep Wounds doesnt give TG-Fury big bleed ticks.

Also seeing all the changes to threat, is it possible that they intend Fury to do more raid dps than arms by having a higher threat cap? I dont have a beta key but reading what other people say about threat, albeit before they make the warrior review, its possible. Though I dont know if that is a good way to go about it.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Kartan

The problem with that is that BF is tied to rend and deep wounds. BF without deep wounds, you would need to keep up rend.
That said, I would really like BF being moved to the fury tree. It is a bit cruel to force DPS warriors to choose between Dual wielding f'ing two handers and BF (and by proxy, a raid spot).

 

Machinator

Ah I forget that it requires a bleed effect, always just been a given that dps warriors have one on. Perhaps combine BF to deep wounds and lower trauma.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Ryuuichi

Don't know if anyone has picked up on this yet, but the latest talent calculator on the official site, no longer has a cooldown listed in the tooltip for 5/5 sword spec.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator

 

Graul

Updated blue reply regarding tanking.

WoW Forums -> Comprehensive Prot Review

 

Roywyn

Depending on how you see and interpret it, they actually want something like that.

They want all classes to be able to tank on a certain level regardless of points spent.
* Defiance (+15% threat) and the bear/paladin equivalents were made baseline, because they were huge no-brainer talents and required for some decent threat.
* Shield Slam was made trainable because non-prot warriors had no scaling high-threat move at all. Sunder spam worked fine at 60, but in Outland your DPS simply outscales your static threat moves.

Hence they made Shield Slam trainable because they felt that (non-prot) warrior couldn't fulfill the baseline tanking in a leveling instance without it.
Of course, prot warriors take less damage, do more threat, have more constrol, have stuns and more emergency options.
But a non-prot warrior can perform on a resonable level as well now, without having core abilities as talents.

Same with paladins - consecration and seals should do most of their job, and they added a baseline shield slam equivalent as a high-threat move.


When it comes to Death Knights, they don't really have a dedicated pure tanking tree.
Frost is tanking oriented, but there are also very attractive tanking talents in the other trees.

So they don't want DK tanking to depend on talent X, because it's very reasonable to focus on another tree with talent Y instead, leaving you unable to take X as well.

I'm not sure I like that design, but that's how they set things up for now.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Starfox

Just logged in on my twink on the beta realm to check if it's the same ingame

and yea, the cooldown thing on warrior swordspecc is gone from the tooltip

Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.

 

7Sam

I spent a good part of my evening on War Tools website, many of the changes I made came from this post and some came from our thread here at EJ.

I would like to see what you guys think of this talent trees and I would love it if you alter in ways that will make it a bit more realistic\balanced.

War Tools :: Talent tree Warrior Talents v3


Note: I see this as a work in progress rather then a finished project. There for be warned, you might get that "lack of polish" feeling when using this talent trees, when you do.. try think of ways to remove that feeling (altering talent location and description comes to mind)

 

Gellor

Interesting quote from same dev (Ghostcrawler) in druid forums:

Quote:
Imagine running a raid with no warrior tanks at all.

Link to full post below.

WoW Forums -> Feral Concerns in WotLK

As warriors we can do things, DPS and Tank, and in his quote he's saying it's a good thing 1 of only the 2 things we can do might not even be required anymore. To say I'm massively disappointed, is the understatement of the year. Pally's and druids can all spec for healing/dps and tanking, we only get 2, and to be honest pally's and druids bring lots more raid synergy than prot warriors. Not to mention that both classes currently pwn us hardcore on mitigation now. MT town, warrior population ZERO.

 

Tornaz

The problem really is in the design of the warrior class. If Arms and Fury are viable tanks, then Protection will be overpowered at the same level. If Protection is balanced, Arms and Fury are underpowered as tanks.

I'm honestly hoping that bliz will remove the Protection tree and rebuild the Warrior from the ground up, focusing on playstyle instead of the current talent trees focus on static stances.

 

Muggins

I think you're going a little overboard here. The idea of his post was clearly aimed at showing that the devs are working toward making all tanks, whether they be deathknight/druid/paladin/warrior, equally viable to main tank in raids. Some might be stronger in certain aspects of tanking than others but if you suddenly don't have any prot warriors turn up one night, you don't call the raid off when you have enough ferals sat on the sidelines to do the job.

Regarding the mitigation front, we haven't even seen any pieces of lvl 80 gear never mind raid gear, for all we know druids might not get any extra armour on their gear and mainly use rogue gear armour levels to bring them down from the armour cap. Finally as has already been mentioned quite a few times we are due a polish pass sometime soon in which, among other things, vigilance will be getting changed.

So how about we stop with all the doom and gloom crap, instead lets see what actually comes along near the 80 mark and if its looking bad then we can raise some at least partially informed concerns between tanking class equality.