Kaan

Yarr! Tools :: Warrior 8472

I think this would be the most viable DW-Fury spec for now. You retain sweeping strikes and gain sword spec and bloodsurge. TG is too unbalanced/difficult to play so I ignored it for now (though, when slam is changed to not reseting swing timer, I could think of talenting 2/2 Slam and playing TG with Slam/BT/WW>HS Cycle).
Last talent point can be spend into 1% more Precision, 1/3 Furious Resolve (-4% Threat and +2% stamina) or 1/2 Whirlwind .

 

Nite_Moogle

Yes.

 

Fugazi

The more I look at safeguard, the more it looks like it will push warriors in to an offtank role instead of a main tank role. Or it will just get nerfed. It parses out to around 12% overall mitigation on your main tank if used every 30 seconds, and it lets you select when to mitigate the damage. It seems powerful enough that encounters with heavy tank damage will either be too easy with it, or balanced around requiring it.

 

Jagiya

The speculation pointing at how underwhelming Sword & Board is would easily be remedied if it procced an additional Shield Slam; ie. Sword Specialisation/Windfury.

I'd personally prefer a 2% chance to proc an extra (rageless) Shield Slam on every Devastate over the current model.

 

Anasurimbor

No, 45% threat isn't essentially the same as now. Now we have 49,5% because it has to multiplied (1.3*1.15=1.495). So it would be a nerf.

 

◊ Ugato

Well, I have to take exception to this. Overpower is a bad example for min-maxing purposes, because you'll be purposefully removing chances for you to use this ability (read: moar expertise). Deep wounds... unless they change the way it operates, that's just laughable.

I don't see any difference in the descriptions of the weapon specs, even after looking up current ones and comparing. Perhaps the Talent calcuator for WotLK talents only shows the old description. I don't know. The only catch for me is knowing if a 2h sword and DW swords would end up (**relatively, adjusted for weapon speed of course) with the same number of procs. If another weapon adds its own procs, then I'm guessing OH proc'ing MH hits will help balance the two.

Axe is a flat + to a stat, and thus irrelevant. Mace is just irrelevant to the PvE discussion.

Impale... Well, it's a flat 20%. That's the same argument as "You shouldn't use BL and Drums at the same time" without even the disclaimer that it's true if it pushes you under the minimum GCD for casters.

**e: are sword spec hits relative to speed? Even if they aren't, the OH proc question still applies.
e2: I've confused myself thoroughly now on the sword spec procs. I'll come back to this later.

 

Nite_Moogle

Incorrect. Axe spec has been improved to also increase the amount of damage done by critical hits by 5% in addition to granting 5% crit. This brings it more in line with sword spec.

Whirlwind is the only attack that deals offhand yellow damage. All other special attacks are main hand. Trauma is also going to improve bleed damage by 30%, so don't write off the free damage from Deep Wounds.

 

◊ Ugato

Ohhh that's what I missed. That's pretty nice.

Yeah, if they make bleeds viable, it's an entirely different story. If they make the concept of refreshing dots without inadvertantly killing a tick a universal one, then Deep Wounds suddenly becomes more useful.

Heroic Strike, BT and WW are the 3 specials you use for Fury dps. Realisticly there is one ability that hits with the OH, one that doesn't, and one that's a special case. BT hits are comparable to a 2h, WW you mention, and HS falls under the "less damage, but more hits" category.

e: more, I really shouldn't be posting now, but hey. I'm addicted.

HS is debateable, and I'm even willing to concede the point, but it'd be a pretty small difference. Slam would be a deciding factor in the 2h vs 1h idea, but this is assuming slam won't reset the swing timer, in which case you wouldn't use it in a Fury rotation without godlike reflexes.

But, now that I think about it, this is rather pointless debating... The real determining factors will be: How much bleeds are going to get buffed (including the dot-tick mechanic question), and if Titan Grip will be viable (as, in its current form, it doesn't seem to be).

Impale is a given (or a toss-up, as it is in its current form for Fury specs: Impale vs. Defiance, depending on your expertise level) or at least a different (pointless) argument from 2h vs. 1h.

Also, since I'm on a roll here, I'll just go on record: If they simply change Slam as they're changing Steady Shot (which I think would warrant removing the Improved Slam talent, though that's another argument altogether), then I'll be a staunch supporter of Arms DPS.

 

Pitbuller

Also sword spec proc 5s CD.(slower is better but not that much)

Tg is +-0 dps talents with auto attack, Bt, WW rotation. But you get bigger instant slams, +10damage(2h spec) but yuo lose 10talent points. If you can get 1% damage per talent point then Tg will lose(choises are some combination presicion, impale, 5/5 weapon spec, imp execute, sudden death, furious resolve, heroic leap)

2h spec and bigger WW/slam vs -20% haste and 10 talent points?


Edit: WW is 162.5% weapon damage instant attack. With Tg this is biggest special you have.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Oloo

Just looking through the wotlk wiki an I noticed the Anger Management change:

Anger Management - "while in combat" removed from description.

Is that right? That we'll passively gain rage no mater where we are or what we're doing? Does that mean we'll be able to start every boss fight with 100 rage? Start every arena with 20?

 

Nite_Moogle

It's just a tooltip update. Anger Management has generated 1 rage passively forever, but it's not enough to stave off rage decay completely when you're out of combat. The rate at which you lose rage when you are out of combat it is effectively reduced by one per tick, and you gain one rage per tick when you're in combat.

 

Oloo

Ah that makes sense, and is something i actually knew too. Never mind. Would have ben nice to go back to the days of the bloodrage bug and start fights on full rage.

 

Fallacy

That's how it works for rogues, AFAIK. If anything, it should garner more procs, even with the cooldown.

 

Mardraum

Wait a minute...

Wont the dual wield talent increase your offhand damage with titans grip?

 

PsyBomb

Current assumption is that both DW spec and 2H spec will apply via Titan's Grip, but good luck prying loose points from a TG build to get past Impale.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

PSGarak

Impale doesn't really favor 2Hers for whirlwind. The average damage bonus as a percent of the attack is the same either way, if Whirlwind already favors 2Hers it will increase the favoring marginally. On the other hand if it favors DW, it will increase that favoring as well. Impale does make Heroic Strike favor 2H weapons. The weapon damage portion on a non-crit was alreay there from the auto-attack, the bonus damage is static, but a crit heroic strike with impale gets an extra piece of the weapon damage that would not have been there before. This is only true in finite-rage situations, though, or else you can HS every autoattack and it makes no difference.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Beefyman

I like bloodsurge the way it is. It beats "hit X ability every CD" playstyles and I think it adds a nice boost of damage to those who are willing to use it.

 

Jabez

I really like the new warrior talents personally with one exception. With crushing blows gone(with what we know at this time at least) why would you want to use a warrior MT over say a druid(who also now gets a panic button)? One day being tired I misread shield block as: "Will block the next attack by 100% dmg". Shield block currently, albeit somewhat arguably, is the skill that defines a warrior as a Main Tank in raid settings. Moving the skill to a 30 second cooldown(20 talented) and removing one charge of it in essence removes a vital point of warrior tanking. Blocking for 800 compared to 400 every 20 seconds really doesn't cut it in my opinion for a class defining ability.

As I mentioned earlier about my misreading shield block, how would you guys think such a skill would fit in? Personally I think it would redefine warriors as endgame tanks without being to powerful(Talent could be 50%/100% instead of reducing cooldown on it to balance it) a, and Blizzard would have an easier time making new fights from a tank balance pov.(Imagine Brutallus today, a fight which heavily favors druids(especially for new guilds). Having that version of shield block could balance that class issue, simply by the warrior being able to 100% mitigate an attack during stomp. On the other hand it wouldn't favor warriors either because druids would still have their class defined way of dealing with it). I realize I might be rambling, but this is a discussion forum and would like to hear what other tanks think about the new shield block changes

 

PSGarak

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that Shield Block is a class-defining skill, or are you saying that the ability to remove crushing blows is what defines warriors as a tank? And is this as a tank in general, or only when compared to druids? If block value becomes more important, even if it's only in 10-mans, Shield Block will remain a very important part of warrior tanking, and I disagree that avoiding crushes is what defines warriors, but I'll hold off on more detail because I'm not very clear on what your point is.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Jabez

Sorry if I was unclear. The main reason warriors are maintanks per today, and not druids, is because of our shield block ability and it making us less vulnerable to crushings(in my opinion at least). In wotlk, that "edge" gets taken away from us in addition to druids getting a panic button. My post was a suggestion on how to make shield block "more" than a "avoid xxx dmg every 20 secs", or an invitation to a discussion about it if you may, because quite frankly I'm a bit worried about warriors being viable as Maintanks over druids/paladins in WOTLK.

 

Pharcyd3

I think one of the most interesting mechanics of Titan Grip is that, as it stands, Whirlwind will become the most powerful instant attack. I did a little bit of number crunching:

Assuming 3000 attack power, and max rank of Mortal Strike (+380?) and using The Blade of Harbingers(x2 for WW).

Average Non Critical Damage:

Mortal Strike: 1556
Bloodthirst: 1350
Whirlwind: 2058

Here are the formulae I used:

Mortal Strike Av. Damage = (Weapon DPS * Weapon Speed) + ((Attack Power / 14) * 3.3) + 380 = (134 * 3.5) +((3000 / 14) * 3.3) + 380 = 1556

Bloodthirst Av. Damage = AP *45 / 100 = 3000 * 45 / 100 = 1350

Whirlwind Av. Damage = (Weapon DPS * Weapon Speed) + ((Attack Power / 14) * 3.3 + ((Weapon DPS * Weapon Speed) + ((Attack Power / 14) * 3.3))*0.75

I checked this on my own spreadsheet, and it seems that WW will continue to outperform both Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst at essentially any amount of attack power. Could someone with a better grasp of the mechanics involved do a calculation to confirm/deny this? If it's correct will they roll back WW to how it was previously?

P.S. I know that I missed out important talents that a MS build would contain, which would affect the value shown (Two handed weapon specialisation), but I think the disparity is sufficiently large that it's not important.

 

Voxx

In my personal opinion, the defining characteristic of warriors as an end-game tank is that we have (arguably) the highest single target tps as well as multiple tools for handling different situations. Shield Wall, Last Stand etc. The fact that we're crushing "immune" is not really the class defining trait because Paladins have it far better than we do.

So basically I don't think the changes to Shield Block will break the warrior class as an end-game tank, or "the" end-game tank.

I was thinking about this as well, and if you want to just guess at the numbers of 2h weapon damage at 80:

Whirlwind now hits for about 1500 (conservatively) with a 2h weapon and raid buffed. If you want to take the damage inflation as about 75% from 70 to 80 then that 1500 would become 2625. Throw in the offhand weapon damage and you're looking at 1640.625 + 2625 = 4265.625 damage hit.

I think the burst potential of Fury is going to go through the roof with Bloodsurge and Whirlwind with Titan's Grip, then maybe a Bloodthirst and two white hits all in the span of about 3 seconds. That's going to be something like (assuming about 6.7k raid buffed attack power to match the Whirlwind estimate and something like 240 added damage to Slam):

4265.625 * 2.1 = 8957.8125 (Whirlwind)
3015 * 2.1 = 6331.5 (Bloodthirst)
2965 * 2.1 = 6226.5 (Slam)
2725 * 2.1 = 5722.5 (Main Hand)
1703.125 * 2.1 = 3576.5625 (Off Hand)

Grand Total: 30814.875 Burst Damage in 3 seconds. (Ability, gcd, Ability, gcd, Ability, 2 White hits in the time span)

I don't know how much the health pools are going to inflate by 80, but you're looking at pretty well destroying someone in 3 seconds as it stands now. This is assuming about 6700 attack power to reach the really really rough estimates for how much our damage will scale based on the inflation we saw from vanilla to TBC. I also have no basis for the 240 added damage to Slam, I just pulled that out of the air.

In any case, that's some very very insane burst damage potential. But if you want to look at it like this, compare the Fury warrior of WotLK to the Barbarian of Diablo II. Whirlwind was the biggest baddest ability you had and you could dual wield 2h weapons. It looks like Blizzard is finally letting the Fury warrior go the route of the Barbarian. I mean, Heroic Leap? Titan Grip? Whirlwind? It looks pretty familiar to me. I think Whirlwind is actually intended to be the big bad boom of WotLK. How much it's going to be tuned or whether I'm right is yet to be determined I guess.

I think that with the new cooldown on Sword Specialization you'll find that Titan's Grip would be more viable than it seems at first. Also, with the Bloodsurge talent I don't think you'll need the points in Improved Slam at all. Maybe something like 25/46/0 with 1 point in Titan's Grip, 1 in Sweeping Strikes, 4 in Sword Spec and aiming for 3.1 ish speed 2handers if Blizzard decides to itemize some decent ones around that speed.

 

PSGarak

Druid tanking is currently balanced around the fact that they can get crushed and warriors cannot. I heard say in one of the threads that changes under consideration are redoing bonus armor on gear, and druids' agi->dodge conversion rate, effectively lowering their tanking abilities on both counts, presumably to equalize both classes in a crush-less environment.

I would argue that warrior tanking is more defined by the fringe benefits they bring for themselves and the raid that would otherwise have to be applied by some other warrior, like thunderclap, sunder armor, and demoralizing shout, as well as their generally broader range of tanking abilities including non-agro control methods. Basically, they're the most flexible tank while bears mostly specialize in smoothing burst damage and paladins specialize in multiple targets or single fast-hitting targets (and DKs will presumably specialize in casters). Shield Block is mostly notable for being the primary damage-mitigation ability and synergizing with revenge for agro. I think its current implimentation puts blocking as a form of damage mitigation meant to stand on its own rather than something whose primary benefit comes from preventing an occluded mechanic. My greater concern is actually the loss of revenge synergy.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Ceral

In my not bleeding edge tanking gear I have 75% combined Dodge+Block+Parry. A Boss hitting me twice inside the 5 seconds revenge cooldown, would mean a 6.25 % chance to not enable revenge by gear alone (right ?). Not only is 2 hits in 5 seconds quite low, 6.25% doesn't strike me as much either. Count in using other skills, the "on use" shield block and GCDs I'd say that concern is rather unwarranted. That is of course, short of significant gear changes in WotLK or some artifical Sunwell Radiance style debuffs. Opinions ?

 

Shha

I was thinking of making this post few times honestly, but usually decided its not worth too much to discuss talents "without context" of future encounters. However lets give it a shot.

1) Prot talents. For now I'll leave them out. Not really because I'm only concerned about dps, but more because the game as such is balanced around prot warriors. The encounters are tuned to match tanking capabilities at given gear level, not other way round. Therefore there is very little use of discussing the usefullness of prot talents IMO. They will make sure to give us encounters that make use of new skills (like they did with spell reflect lets say), and the encounters will be "doable", and "balanced" for our prot spec. One thing about crushing and Druids:

- In a non crushing environment atm, Druids generally fare better if there is not much magic dmg. Not a big discovery here.

- In a crushing environment, not only druids are worse, but they get progressively worse - thats the big problem blizzard is facing now. Compare the stats for some uber crap green/blue gear you started TBC with with end game ones.

a) Early TBC.

Assume 25% avoidance which is low (especially for druids), just for seeing the extremes.
Druid takes 50% hits, 25% crushings. So in realm of 87% "hits"
Druid are capped on armor given inspiration/ancestral fort

Warriors have defensive stance for -10%
Warriors take around 70% hits 5% crushings (with so low avoidance block wont ALWAYS be up) for arounf 77.5% base "hits" - Defensive stance reducing it to 70%.

All in all Druids take around 25% more physical damage, before counting armor/shield block stats. Given their mitigation at this lvl of 75% vs warriors maybe 65% with consumables druids are ahead - even in crushing environment

b) End game. With 80% avoidance on both (not hard to do with Scorpid sting etc), and druids being capped on armor before the armor buffs:

Almost EVERY hit a druid takes is a crushing. I stress it again. so 15% crushing 5% hits = 27.5% hits
Warriors are over 72% mitigation from armor (assuming armor buffs) - so the difference is LOWER then what defensive stance alone yields them.
Warriors also shield block for around 10% less damage.
All in all vs crushing bosses end game druids given similiar avoidance (this is tricky part - most warriors go with more stam at cost of avoidance which can change the results), Druids take over 50% more damage then warriors.

Now given sunwell radiance and such, the difference isnt that big, but still its pretty huge, and that scaling problem should be toned down in WOTLK (honestly i dont mind the mechanic too much - its fine if as you progress with gear the class strong points shift a bit - but its a bit too large of a difference now).




2) Dps.

Right now the talents make little sense and pigeonhole dps warriors into one spec. Let me start by mentioning a subject that I mentioned few times on general forums and was bashed by people who never even wanted to try to understand it.

Blood Frenzy - I honestly think it should be moved to Fury tree. Lets see the reasoning.

a) Spec Variety. BF as such was mostly added by blizzard to justify arms/2h warriors in raids. Its fine, acceptable solution. For our use lets just rephrase - we WANT 2h warriors to be justified in raids.

However, as much as i agree with this motion, I never could understand why it had to be ARMS warriors to get BF. Arms as such is a tree with some "enhancers" - various procs like imp hamstring/sword spec etc. Its fine to give 2h warriors some "oomph", but why not just give BF to 2h Fury builds.

All in all as far as dps spec balance goes with the WOTLK talents, I think the goal is to make PLAYSTYLES viable, not talent trees. For lets say a warlock , making TALENT trees viable is the same as making playstyles good - affliction focuses on dots, demo on pets, and destruction makes u a "mage". For warriors the cut isnt that clear - you cant really say that arms "focuses on 2h", when only talents focusing on 2h pve dps is 2h spec (MS is worse then BT in terms of damage output even for 2h). Everything else is universally applying to any spec.

So playstyles that should be made viable are:

1x2h
2x2h
2x1h

Right now even with BF in arms the only spec supported by WOTLK talents if you give it a thought is 2x1h. Rationale :

For BF builds you need 32 points in arms (lets leave BT away), and you obviously want to go to 5/5 flurry so 30 in fury. That leaves 9 talent points. Titan's Grip is out of the question because of talent limitation so 2x2h playstyle goes out of the window. Obviously you pick BT (better then MS and possibly giving bloodsurge). When you pick BT , you can realize that the main thing going for 2h just went away - your main instant attack is BETTER with DW. WW is comparable, instants are better. Slams? Well Slams are bad atm as it is - I dont think they will make them "weavable" since it would completely destroy warrior playstyle and some talents - although I can definitely see them making "bloodsurge slams" not reset swing timer. Slams are just a "lesser evil" for current 2h warriors, since they have no other good rage dump. Heroics are obviously bad with 2h, so BF/Arms warriors slam. However with Wotlk you get:

- Dual wielding BF warriors will find Heroic a lot better.
- Sudden Death provides the best rage dump possible - yes executes are worse efficiency then BT/WW, but they still completely outclass slam/heroic.

So comparison between 2x1h, vs 1x2h for BF warriors comes down to:

2h BF warrior

5% 2h spec.
Low Sudden Death uptime (even with 50% crit, it will be up around once per 6 2h swings, so once per 15-20 seconds)
Rage dump in form of Slam (low effectiveness)
Lots of wasted Talents - after the 32/31 start (BF+BT, no MS), there are no talent points to pick really.

- Imp WW - doesnt fit into slam rotation = useless
- Precision - Useless as 2h warriors are rarely not capped on hit
- Imp MS - USeless as the lower CD doesnt fit into rotation, and BT is higher damage then MS even with 5% buff)

So you waste a lot of talents on either pvp or occasional stuff, and pick up 3 pts into imp zerker stance.

2x1h BF warrior
High Sudden Death uptime - Especially with 2 fast weapons (Covered later)
Higher white damage from dual wield
Rage dump in form of execute+ occasional HS
No wasted talents.

Extra note - it seems that fast/fast setup will be prefered - all you really lose is WW damage (and its not much due to weapon normalization. Right now a difference between 2.6 and 1.5 weapon is around 100 damage on MH and 50 on OH for WW. 150 damage every 10 sec = 15 dps, even counting crits and such its maybe 25 dps. Instead you get like 60% higher SD uptime and better heroics (heroics are more effective with fast MH).


So BF warriors will probably go with a spec like:
Yarr! Tools :: Warrior 8472 With the weapon specs being somewhat debatable

For non BF, 2x setup is better (I dont think I need to really explain why). Now people are discussing TG as in if its beneficial or not. Its debatable yes. But remember - its 5 talents ... if for 5 talents i have a choice of getting something DEBATABLE, or I get WEAPON SPEC, the answer is simple. Also again - SD with 2x fast weapons seems like perfect rage dump and very easy to fit in rotation unlike even heroic. I really dont see why TG would be ever used if the choice is:

TG :
Higher WW damage (might be a lot higher IF the one hand wielded 2h are normalized at 3.3, which Im not so sure is the case) - still even 50% higher WW damage, isnt much when it makes up 10% of dual wield warrior damage - NOW , and probably less with better rage dumps in WOTLK.
Better stats (due to higher bonuses on 2h - although it can depend on itemization - right now it mostly means more stam)

2x1h

Sword/axe spec (5% on its own)
SD as rage dump instead of very ineffective slam (even instant procced slams are worse then execute, since they cant really consume enough rage)
Higher White damage


So all in all I hoped I showed why with current talents the only real specs for warriors will be

2xfast 1h basing on SD
32/39 for BF 29/42 for non-BF (which also very very heavily shifts the balance - BF will be really mandatory when all you lose in terms of dps is like 400 personal ap).

Given how OP BF will become with this setups (about as good personal dps as fury), and the fact we will have another melee class to fit in, Im 100% sure DW BF will become the ONLY useful warrior dps spec.

Now what Id like to see is:
Switch Enrage with Deep Wounds/Impale combo. If we make arms a pvp spec we can as well go the whole way - I really dont think its that bad. Dual wield pvp builds wont be affected (if they prove useful) so no variety loss here

Switch BF with Imp zerker Rage. Make BF work only after CRITICAL HITS WITH 2H WEAPON.

This will bring balance to warrior specs

- Personal dps spec of 29/42 for dual wield
- BF spec with Titan Grip and slams
- BF spec with SD and executes as filler for 2h.


Another thing to mention here. Its time to say it loud. If dps warriors are to be viable in WOTLK their damage contribution should be higher then now.

a) Another melee class makes it so having more then 1 dps warriors is questionable as it is. I dont think 2 dps warriors should be required - 1 prot+1dps is reasonable. But still the average class count for 25 man raids/10 classes is 2.5. So 3rd warrior should be Viable.

b) Warriors are NOT offtanks. Sorry but even now, if we run trash , our offtanks are druids, paladins etc. Our dps warrior basically NEVER offtanks because there is no need for it. Wotlk will bring ANOTHER tanking class. Seriously, dps warriors will not be brought in general with "offtank function" in mind. Last boss i recall having a dps warrior OT would be FLK. Dps warriors = rogues/mages/warlocks/hunters etc as far as utility goes. They are a PURE dps class.

c) Warriors right now are highest maintenance class. The old myth of "melee does more damage but takes more raid damage" isnt exactly true atm. Rogues take LEAST raid damage of any class due to their escape mechanisms. They dont get half of the damage warriors have to endure due to vanish/cloak/imp sprint to break snares etc. If a warrior brings as much dps as rogue to the raid, rogue is clearly better now. So Wariors SHOULD outperform rogues in dps contribution - although not necessarily in personal dps - shouts/bf matter too.