Well, moving Revenge around in your rotation functionally does nothing. If Devastate is better than Revenge due to Sword and Board, you'd remove it from your threat lineup entirely. I don't think it will be, personally, because you can figure every 10 Devastates nets you 1 Shield Slam. That's what, 4 or 5 Revenges or so for one Shield Slam? There's probably some fancy math someone can work up to show expected threat from it, but my hunch is losing revenge would come out to be less than our typical threat cycle. I think if anything we'll just be using Devastate less so than we are now.

I don't see why people are still using revenge in their 6 sec rotation, with the change the Shield Block, what makes you think its goes to be available 100% of the time anyway?

I'd suggest using an additional devastate (with increased proc chance on S&B. Which i think is sub par talent but anyway), sure use revenge when it's lit up and slip it in to you rotation. But i think the days are gone when it is 100% part of your maximum threat generation cycle, unless blizzard increases the duration of which you can use a revenge after a block.

I don't think they'd have to increase the duration personally. Even in live now I rarely have to force a revenge by using block just based on normal dodge, block, parry chances.

It would make more sense to re-align the revenge CD with the shieldblock CD and up the total threat per use from it (target the same total threat as if you used revenge 5 or 6 times). The base ability would be the same TPS, but it'd gain efficiency in both rage cost and GCD use. You'd still use it every 30 seconds (best use of the GCD) but you'd use devastate more frequently and make S&B a better talent.

I think part of the problem beta-testing warriors are running into is that they can't use revenge on every cooldown like they can on live. In a low-rage situation (particularly for the guys who have sunwell or T6-quality gear), not being able to use your most rage-efficient attack on every cool-down is kind of a problem.

You guys also have to consider how quickly your abilities are going to decay as you level when you look at revenge. Most of the rating requirements double from today, so you won't have nearly the same amount of parry, dodge or block by the time you're level 75 or higher. Even if I have 60% avoidance today, that will plummet to ~30% by the time I'm close to level 80. Shieldblock becomes the best way to make use of revenge, but you get rage starved from it (doubling your block value is a significant damage reduction in threat gear) and you can only use it every 30 seconds.

Well i have almost 75% avoidance in typical sunwell gear , and 29% block. Halving that, would result in 37.5% avoidance, 15% block. With new anticipation buff, that ends up being around 55% chance to light up revenge - doesnt seem like a huge deal.

Edit: Of course 75% included 13.5% chance to miss, which doesnt light up revenge. Well that still leaves a 48% chance to light up revenge every 2 or so seconds (assuming one average hitting mob). Its possible that revenge wont light up every cooldown, but its not commong, neither really impacting in my opinion.

Um, your avoidance isn't going to be halved.

Assuming you have all the avoidance talents, you've got a base 10% parry, 5% dodge, and 5% miss, for a combined 20% avoidance, plus 3% or so for Anticipation in its current form. If you have 55% avoidance at 70, that means that 55-23 = 32% of that is from gear, and that part would shrink by half (to 16%), leaving you with 23+16=39% avoidance at 80, with the exact same gear. The same deal with block; you've got about 11% with no gear on.

EDIT: Also note that 5% dodge is a significantly higher chance to activate Revenge than 20 defense (which is only 2.4% dodge/block/parry).

Well, yea for a raid instance boss, sure you'd wear that. You'd never wear that for a 5 man or you'd be completely rage-starved. I know I usually only wear my full sunwell suit in sunwell.

This becomes a compound probability problem. In your example with the 48% chance, you've got a 27% chance you won't get revenge to light up over 4 seconds (0.52 * 0.52), 15% chance over 6 seconds (0.52 * 0.52 *0.52). That's in heavy avoidance/block rating gear too. You swap to something like a threat set with a heavier mix of hit, expertise, and block value and you're going to see an increase in that percentage chance to miss out on revenge from your cycle or seriously delay its use.

I don't know about you, but I've still got over 19k armor in my threat set, I'm still not going to get hit very hard. When I do block, it will completely negate the hit and net me 1 rage (especially if it's because I used shieldblock and nearly doubled my BV). TPR efficiency becomes a very big deal in that situation.

Yeah nevermind about revenge, for some reason i had a brain fart and thought it only lit up from blocks, not block/dodge/parry.

It looks to me like warriors have a long way to go before they are finalized, possibly almost as far as death knights. For example:

1. Warriors have no level 80 new spell listed yet, unless i've missed it somewhere. (Hunter: Kill Shot, Death Knight: Army of the Dead, etc.)
   
2. Since they removed the damage portion from shield bash, which also removed the "Causes Daze" effect, how are warriors supposed to daze their targets to get the added bonus damage to Heroic Strike? Does Piercing Howl do this now? Do we not get one? Do we rely on others to daze for us?
   
3. There's no new listed rank of revenge from lvl 70 to 80. Historically there is a new rank every 10 lvls. Perhaps they have some mechanic change in mind for revenge, since the old mechanic is pretty reliant on having the old imp shield block with it blocking 2 attacks and almost always having revenge lit up.

I'm sure there's more incomplete issues, but those are just the ones that jumped out at me.

I like the way the trees are setup so far, but i'm sure they'll change around a bit. Like, if you wanted to, I think you could come up with a respectable pvp spec in any of the 3 trees by putting 51 points into them. Arms would likely be the best at it of course, but you could do a 51 fury setup built for stupid burst damage that could be interesting if you had a hunter, rogue or MS warrior around for the MS debuff. There's also enough points now to do an interesting tri-spec, something like this. Good luck killing that spec, heh.

The most interesting changes are to prot though. With the change to strength to block value ratio, it means you can wear gladiator gear as prot spec for pvp and put out some pretty good damage with shield slam. Here's some numbers:

This is at 70:
Assume 430 damage (avg) for shield slam before block value is added to it.
Assume maybe 550 strength in pvp gear (you can get more, Crimsonstorm was the highest I saw while glancing at armory, with 740ish )
Add in 185 block value from [Brutal Gladiator's Shield Wall].
Add in 59 block value from the Gnomeregan autoblocker. (optional of course, but fun).

Assuming Shield mastery, Vitality, Improved Shield Bash and 1h Spec, you get Shield Slam Damage of 1333 before damage reduction. Not too shabby, especially considering if you activate the auto-blocker that number goes up to 1647.

To me, the block value issue was always the thing holding prot spec pvp back in the past. If you used any gear with block value, your crit went in the toilet, and vice versa. Now that BV is no longer an issue, and combined with cool toys like back to back shield slams using sword and board, shockwave for big damage and halting assist trains in their tracks and the awesome safeguard talent, prot could be very interesting in arenas. Don't know about dominant, but certainly annoying. I'd use a spec like this maybe.

Exactly where my brain was going too. Revenge's place in the cycle is more about it's inability to proc SnB than anything else.

That 740 str youre seeing is full pve dps gear I think, with Cat's edge (a 1her+shield would lose a lot of str). Normal pvp gear you should be at least 600 though, which is 300 BV.

I think Prot pvp will be fine for battlegrounds, but not arena. Lack of MS debuff still kills it.

It's a shame that we aren't getting any kind of port of the T4 4pc set bonus into a talent to be honest. The revenge proc on that tier set makes for some truly awesome Shield Slam crits.

Long-time listener, first time poster ... anywho, I was running through some paper doll numbers on my beta warrior earlier today with a buddy and noticed that TG appears to be using a non-slowed weapon speed when computing white damage AP contribution instead of the 20% slowed 2hd speed. Whether or not this was intended, I'm not sure but please check my math to make sure I'm not crazy (and btw, I scanned the thread to see if this had been noticed but didn't see any posts referencing it ... if I missed one I apologize)

My Warrior on Beta:

Using: [Twinblade of the Phoenix] MH
2390 AP Unbuffed

Twinblade Stats:
375-564 Damage / 3.6s Speed (4.32s w/ 5/5 TG) / 469.5 Avg. Damage

White Damage from AP is: [(AP/14)x(Weapon Speed)] + [Weapon (Average) Damage]

So, using the 3.6 speed initially we'd have:
[(2390/14)x(3.6)]+[469.5] = 1084.07 damage

Using the TG slowed speed (5/5 TG) we'd have:
[(2390/14)x(4.32)]+[469.5] = 1206.99 damage

However, looking at my paper doll stats on the character tab, I have a damage range listed as 989-1179 (1084 average) with my MH swinging at 4.32s ... so it would appear that TG computes AP contribution on white attacks at the non-slowed speed instead of the final (pre-buff) speed of the weapon ... with me it accounts for roughly a 11% loss in anticipated white damage per attack. I missing something here?

-- Addendum to address different levels of TG --
Points in TG (1 --> 5)

4.61s
1256.49 average damage
272.56 dps

4.54s
1244.54 average damage
274.13 dps

4.46s
1230.89 average damage
275.98 dps

4.39s
1218.94 average damage
277.66 dps

4.32s
1206.99 average damage
279.39 dps

So, even though your average damage is higher with each successive point left out of TG, you're still seeing an upward trend in white dps with each point invested in TG. So, and correct me if I'm wrong, you'd be doing more, not less, white dps with each successive point in TG (albeit only 2.4% more from 1-->5 points). Still, TG is computing white dps addition using unslowed weapon speed and granting less contribution than it should to white damage based off AP.

No you are not missing anything, I think though it was pretty obvious that the TG 20% penalty was meant to be a nerf to dps to compensate for using 2h. If the dps from AP was calculated post-20% slow effect, TG would be actually BUFFING your 2h performance - furthermore, getting 1/5 TG would provide superior dps to same spec with 5.5.

Titan Grip is working just as it is meant too. You swing 20% slower, the swings dont change in damage at all.

When you gain haste, it doesnt make your hits do less damage or anything, that would be silly.

Titan Grip is -20% haste. It significantly reduces white damage. White damage with TG is significantly less than when youre dual wielding 1Hers, even though the weapons themselves are higher dps. This is offset by bigger WW and Slam attacks, and more stats on your weapons. It also gives a bigger and bigger dps loss the better your gear gets. So while it starts out strong in a low gear, non raid buffed scenario, like grinding or leveling, it becomes kindof bad with raid buffs and strong gear, to the point where it may even eventually lower your overall dps.

I think the haste penalty needs to be lowered somewhat to make it a good talent, or changes into some other penalty that doesnt hurt our scaling potential.

Problem is, the haste penalty is really NOT hurting our damage too much. The haste penalty is THE thing that enables working slam rotation , since its impossible now with new WF. As i said as you get faster weapons/more haste, you might even want LESS points in TG just to slow down your weapon enough. If they removed speed penalty alltogether you would have 2 choices:

- Use slam rotation anyway, effectively slowing the weapon to same value anyway

- Stop using Slam between instants, only use one per 12 sec cycle (possibly with bloodsurge), and replace other 3 slams (decent damage/rage), with heroic strikes (horrible damage/rage - 1 heroic costs you about as much as 3 slams and deals considerably less damage - even with incite). You would get maybe equivalent of 9 instants instead of 11 , and gain 20% white damage.

Overall in either of those scenarios, TG is actually NOT a nerf to pve dps - while reducing pvp burst potential. Heh, dont make blizzard change the haste penalty inton something actually hurting

Well I said - changing AP contribution, would change the TG penalty to a bonus - it would basically mean "you attack wirh 2h AND 20% harder, but 20% slower". While some buff might be in order, you are basically proposing something way overboard. In addition like I said - it would make points in TG DETRIMENTAL, after 1st one. Any point past 1 in TG would reduce your dps...

Well, there is always the option to put up some sort of reverse TG where you start at -0% haste with 1/5 and can spec to -20% haste with 5/5 TG. While it does sound somewhat backwards, that would solve part of the problem by rewarding you to actually spec 5/5.

Well or just start it at -30% haste, and instead of reducing it (which might not be beneficial sometimes), instead add 2/4/6/8/10% to all damage while active. Or start at -20% if we feel TG needs a buff and add sme 2/4/6/8/10 .

Without the haste penalty from TG, and with Flurry and Windfury, a 3.6 speed weapon goes to 2.4, or a 3.7 speed weapon goes to 2.47 (great for a perfect slam cycle, accounting for latency, where you just spam the attacks each cooldown and dont have to worry about your slam clipping the autoattack.

With the 20% haste penalty, even a 3.4 speed weapon goes to 2.72, requiring adding haste rating to get it down to a good amount.

If it didnt have the speed penalty, or had a smaller one, it would allow us to use a slower weapon (bigger hits, slams, whirlwinds), or to stack less haste. Its pretty easy to simply avoid haste items and just get str/crit/ArP instead. If the penalty were reduced a few % I think it would turn TG into a good talent (from a talent where its probably worse than just getting a weapon spec).

The Slam rotation should be the same as used now for 2H arms. But the slam in the TG rotation isnt as beneficial as the one in current 2H arms, because you still only benefit the amount of a MH swing, but you reset the swing of both of your weapons. So its easier to hurt your dps if you dont time it well.

Its also hard to find time for all your cooldowns, you get one free cooldown every 12 seconds, but in addition to battle shout and possibly demo shout, you also have to do rampage, and you could get some good dps out of bloodbath, since there are some good bleed damage multipliers out there.

I think that the slam rotation might only do slightly more dps than simply using your abilities as soon as they are on CD, and getting Bloodsurge and doing some instant slams (which you cant fit into the slam rotation).

The advantage of bloodsurge would be being able to stick an instant "non swing resetting" slam into your rotation where a normal slam would be, the problem is that it is no dps increase due to the slow slow speed of your weapons unless you go "instant slam -> crit bloodthirst -> instant slam->whirlwind, every 2 full rotations, and even then you are probably only gaining one extra swing so while the talent seems decent it probably isnt useful for a TG build at all especially considering how slim of a chance it is that you will actually get that "maxed dps" rotation to proc during anything but recklessness.

Yeah, bloodsurge in the slam rotation would be better used to get 3 other talents, like points into precision or something.