Shha

Well of course removing/reducing the penalty from TG would be abuff to dps. Thats basically what you said. I only stated, that of all the penalties blizzard could do, this one is probably least painful for pve, while also nerfing TG in pvp which does seem like their idea (good or bad). Remember - haste is the best stat point for point for arms now, and TG in future - as long as you dont go below cap/start clipping rotation. Haste for arms warrior works on ALL the damage he does - more white swings_> more slams-> tighter use of instant CD (if your weapon speed is 3.0 then slam cycle is 3.5 sec at least, and you can use MS/BT only every 7 seconds instead of 6).


Completely the opposite. Benefits of "new slam".

- Timings are made extremely easy - get your weapon close to 2.5 speed and follow a gcd limited sequence. With synced weapons especially its really not a big problem the reduced OH dps.

- Timings right now with arms are loose. Reason why a lot of people want slower weapons then 2.5 hasted, is because you need to give a really huge leeway on slam anyway. If you do slams correctly they START casting around 0.3-0.5 sec after white swing - making effective slam cast 0.8-1.0 sec. Why? Because if you dont (and some people dont wait), then you are clipping every swordspec/wf that could occur. Given how those 2 effects add 25% to white damage, its a huge effect, and waiting those 0.3-0.5 sec is sort of mandatory. With WF becoming a haste effect, and Sword Spec gone from slam builds, you are actually making the rotations much much tighter and cleaner.

Im really not sold on stance switching and using bleeds. Sure its a good amount of damage. So was the use of imp overpower - and that one was proven multiple times to not really fit into a dps cycle. Ever since BWL times, warriors know to NOT use an instant weapon damage/always crit move - why would people really want to use bleeds in such case? Well see how it turns out, but for me rend/BB might be a nice pvp talents, but not really something to fit pve dps cycle.


Possibly. No slam rotation now, works because of sword spec, hamstring dealing damage, and the mentioned problems with slam (either you cut 25% of your white dps in form of procs, or you cast slams a lot longer). The way I see it , you gain 20% more white damage by not using slam, 20% more WW damage, but you lose some flurry uptime, and lose around 70-90% of slam dps. Given how slam should account for around 60-70% of your white damage, it feels like still a considerable loss.

 

Crimsonstorm

Yeah its certainly easier to time the slams with the 5/5 flurry getting your swing time down, not worrying about windfury or sword spec.

It is a dps increase to do the slams. I think its asmaller %age increase versus no slams than before, but its definitely easier.

On bloodbath, I dont see any stance requirement on it, so I figured it could be part of the rotation. If you have to stance dance for it then it would be bad, definitely.

 

Malpractices

I would think that a simple fix to TG would be making it so you can use a 2 hander in your main hand only. Then get rid of the - haste penalty. This would solve the scaling problems and would be 30% dps upgrade to you main hand only(plus whatever stat bonus you are getting that is above a 1 hander). You are then getting an ok upgrade to dps with both white and yellow damage. Rage would be more consistant because of the 2.6 or faster off hand.

 

Beefyman

Can anyone in beta confirm if the new hamstring can kill totems? If it cant then then it really hurts our ability to fight shaman or just prevent flag captures in AB.

 

Gruntle

How would an ability causing exactly 0 damage be able to kill a totem? Of course Hamstring won't kill totems. Not that I'm in the beta but common sense should be enough to realize that

If I'm wrong you get to mock me for eternity.

 

Prinsesa

Hunter - Bestial Wrath/The Beast Within
Rogue - Hunger for Blood
Druid - Berserk, Enrage
Warrior - Berserker Rage, Bloodrage, Enrage

The Death Knight's Hysteria might be worth testing as well.

EDIT: Added Enrage

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Liar

You can also add Enrage on the Warrior side of the list which also happens to be the only Enrage mechanic I know of that is not triggered by the player. This is going to have some serious consequences in Arenas where you can just Rend up the enemy Warrior and hit on him until he procs Enrage for quad damage.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

AmPriS

Okay well I was testing a 37 arms 31 fury build tonight. I guess this is supposed to be the raid spec soon?
Anyways



The highest rend tick was 411(not shown). Back to what the above poster said about in arena, with that 4 time modifier to enrage , that would be some 1600 damage a tick, but just guessing at lvl 80 with better gear and it will probably do 2200(atleast) a tick to an enraged target.
Also another interesting thing, the 76 druids rip was doing 1100 a tick when trauma was active.

 

Crimsonstorm

Has anyone seen any info regarding when the next beta build will be released? Since thats likely to have our new warrior changes in it.

 

mistersix

Why do you think that? Only comments I've seen from blue is that they're working on us. Nothing specific enough to suggest we're in the next push. Did I miss a blue tracker somewhere?

 

Crimsonstorm

No nothing specific, just an expectation that we'd see stuff based on that theyve said theyre working on warriors.

 

Kartan

mmo-champion has the new talent calculator. BF now arms 41 point talent. GG Blizzard, GG indeed.

 

Zegai

Shield Wall is now the same ability (essentially) as Divine Protection. Only thing is, it is still free and doesn't incur a attack speed penalty.

They also increased shield spec to 2 rage again, but it still is a majorly lackluster talent.

Extremely disapointing if that's all. The change to BF is... well, unbeliavable to put it bluntly =p

EDIT:
New Recklessness...
Your next 0 special ability attacks have an additional 100% to critically hit but all damage taken is increased by 20%. Lasts 12 sec.
Instant, 5 min cooldown

Expected.

 

Mode

They flipped the positions of impale and deep wounds. Deep wounds now does 48% of weapon damage over 6 seconds (was 60 over 12 seconds).

Edit: This is a neutral change. Pure DPS warriors don't need to take a somewhat fruity ability if they don't want to and it's a DPS upgrade. It's also another nail in the coffin of the BF warrior. In PVP, it'll be trickier to keep up deep wounds to prevent rogues from running off and vanishing. Now if only they'd unlink enrage and flurry.

 

Zaroua

Deep wounds is 48% weapon damage over 6 seconds, moved up a tier but still has Impale pre-req.
Unrelenting Assault swapped places with Blood Frenzy (wtf?)
Trauma no longer has a pre-req
Improved Shield Wall reduces cooldown by 30/60 seconds
Shield Wall, Recklessness and Retaliation all have a 5 minute cooldown - not sure if linked but should be usable in arenas

Dogma also claims that God has a sense of humor and at times presents Him as a joker of sorts, thus again lowering Him to human level. While I am certain God has a "sense of humor" since He gave it to us, I find it most difficult to believe He finds humor in sin since He will cast the unforgiven sinner into the lake of fire for eternity. Not very funny at all.

 

Vodrin

Hunger For Blood may be an enrage, however it does remove a bleed effect when used, has no cooldown, and only costs a gcd if a bleed is on.

Unless I'm missing something its not going to be usable for bloodbath.

 

gia

From: Wrath of the Lich King - Warrior - Fury Skills

Is this a new ability? or something from a previous build that I had missed?

 

madpeon

I think it might still work given that you could have multiple bleeds on a target and it still takes 1s for the rogue to clear each one.

For example, if a rogue has Rend, DW, and Bloodbath all ticking on him, his first Hunger For Blood might remove the DW, but if he becomes stunned shortly after, the Rend and Bloodbath should both be ticking for 4x damage.

 

Tornaz

Pushing BF to 40+ deep in the tree smacks of forcing PvE viability onto Deep Arms specs. Sadly, even with it that deep in Arms, it's still a massively PvE ability which more or less forces the second Warrior in a raid into a deep PvE Arms spec, despite the loss of both personal DPS and other utility.

Notably, once BF is that deep in Arms, it's impossible to build any serious BF/Off-Tank builds, which was the last viable hope of Arms. 37 deep was just doable. 42 isn't. I hope they revert that change swiftly.

Frankly, I'm begining to take the view that BF is actually slightly too powerful in its current form, as it distorts the desirable and available warrior specs heavily. I'd almost be cheering for a moderate nerf and a comensurate drop in talent tier.

 

Faeviactus

Looking at the changes to the tree, it seems they are giving easier access to two-handed spec while grabbing titans grip. It seems I can take 5/5 titan's grip and grab 5/5 two-handed spec. By only grabbing 2 points in Furious resolve. This seems to be a good choice for personal dps(still lacking obvious raid utility). Sadly 10 of the points in the arms tree are throw away now. Parry is nice but only useful if I am getting hit, thunderclap improves utility. However, the rest are arguably useless to a pure TG dps spec.

My big question is given the conversations I have been seeing about whether or not blood surge will provide a benefit when trying to fit into various rotations. Would the 5% extra damage to Main and Off-hand provide a more consistent benefit and allow a smoother rotation?

 

Shha

Yea TG got a slight buff with 2 more points to get from 2h spec. However that comes at cost of Anger Management (or only 1 point gained). I personally like AM, but i can see it not being a big deal. Bloodsurge seems pretty useless for a Slam TG build, and is ok one for the no-slam rotation. Slam TG i guess is pretty set in stone with 2 dilemmas left only:

Booming Voice vs Unbridled Wrath vs Demo Shout.

Booming Voice might be really an useful talent with raidwide shouts - for one its easier to manage your shout because of area (especially commanding that you want on the whole raid). Longer duration also helps with that (especially with fights with spread out/collapse parts etc). Its also one of the thing a lot of people seem to forget about shouts when saying "prot/arms for two shouts". I really cant imagine prot warrior draging the boss around all time to keep shouts on everyone. 20 yard buff isnt that big - just look at sunwell fights. Reverse Twins is maybe the only fight where your tank would be able to keep his shout on whole raid all the time, while doing his job.

Unbridled Wrath 3/5 gives a really nice boost to rage generation. Im not sure if haste effects affect it - I would assume not, but it might not be the case . If haste doesnt change %, then the talent becomes really nice with 2x2h being down to 2.5 swing and generating a rage point EVERY time.

Demo shout - Im not sure, there is more ways now of providing the debuff if needed - well see if fury is one to make use of it.


Other is simply - Precision vs Furious Resolve, with the answer depending on your raid and tank threat.


Overall the new build helps a bit with fury - deep wounds nerf was expected - with rolling DW its still a great talent, and 48% seems fair enough. Extra talent points really help too.

BF change means you cant take BT.
Leaves you with 2 choices

- Oldschool 1x2h Slam. It doesnt seem that bad - because of the WF change, you take out flurry completely (and enrage as result, leaving you with a lot of talent points. You are a perfect debuff/buff bot - with ability to have imp shouts, booming voice, imp demo, imp clap etc. Compared to TG build, you lose OH damage, Get imp MS (there really isnt anything better to take - even though imp MS is garbage since you cant fit 2 in rotation) instead of BT - thats somewhat comparable and 15% or so of AP. Fair enough for BF/Trauma/imp demo/clap etc. Its easier to play then now as well - same reason as ones i listed for TG.

- SD - you can focus on SD alone with 2 fast weapons. Main problem with the build is the complete crap for talent points allocation. You want endless rage/BF as it gives you rage to blow on executes. That leaves you with 15% flurry only and no OH spec - you lack fury talents. On other hand Arms gives you so many talents and absolutely no good place to put them in. I guess double weapon specs? Fast Axe in MH, Fast sword in OH?


Mode - Deep wound change is a nerf. Since they seem to stick to rolling DW model for now - duration doesnt matter for dps - you will get your damage out of it sooner or later. Main difference I guess it reduces the somewhat insane numbers you could get during recklessness.




On a side note - with all the new talents - Bloodsurge/SD/DW rolling - it seems days of Str/Ap stacking for dps are over. Crit seems to be undisputed king of dps stat for warriors now - unless something really changes or i missed something.

 

madpeon

Confirming that Recklessness, Shield Wall, and Retaliation are now all 5 minute cooldowns without a shared cooldown.

Edit: Triggering one stance ability prevents you from activating another stance ability until the previous one fades.

However, Recklessness was changed to 3 charges which only affect special abilities.

 

Kavtor

And shield wall is down to 50%, from 75%. And on a 4 minute timer talented.
Unlinked, 5 minute timers sound really, really powerful in arenas.

They really should just trade BF & Trauma with enrage and shuffle the tree's about to reflect the changes. Or else fury really needs a reason to be viable. If arms is the PVP tree, and the primary DPS tree, all fury warriors are left with is competing for a 3rd warrior spot with every other melee DPS class. Blizzard is going to have to choose between either trying to make all three trees as viable as possible across all play styles, like the death knight, or keep the tree's specialized like they are. Going half way, while stuffing great raid buffs in deep arms just isn't consistent. Fury would need some serious damage potential to offset that.

 

Graul

A current 33/28 build is not taken off the virtue of BF alone, and for guilds that do this, they must be completely oblivious to what actually contributes to raid DPS. That Warrior has to be doing moderately decent personal DPS on top of the contribution that BF brings, otherwise if it can't even match at the very least a 17/44 build, you would just take the 17/44 build. Giving everyone else a 4% physical damage bonus and not doing even 75% of the damage (personal) a dedicated Fury Warrior can do just seems to be for the epeens of everyone else, not actually improving the raid. The only exception would be if you don't actually have a Protection Warrior there tanking to Sunder and Thunder Clap.

As an example, my current 33/28 gear is still somewhat lacking. I'm either just under the hit cap (8.82%) or over (9.75%) and am lacking a little crit, but even with that gear I can push 2k on Brutallus. Factoring ALL of the physical damage done on our raid, my total contribution comes out to be 2425 and that was with two Bloodlusts. As Fury I've done 2467 with one Bloodlust, the rest of the buffs being the same. Now if we had another Hunter things might start favoring BF a little more, but as it's been stated from the start, if you're really a min/maxing guild then you need to factor how much damage you really are bringing and compare that to another build. Not every raid setup is going to be identical and not all players can play each spec the same either. Anyway, the point of all of this is that with BF moved that far into the Arms tree now, it seems to severely hamper the personal DPS of the build, so I don't understand how this is supposed to make Arms more viable than it already is, when (with what we know now) right now the current 33/28 seems to be far superior.

If anything, this seems to be the way they are making Fury "more viable" because it's making Arms actually do less than what it can currently do. But doesn't this just go right back to the pre TBC days where Fury was "the" DPS spec Warriors were while Arms was always second best?

Well, this certainly helps for PvP, but is a pretty drastic nerf to any raid encounter.

 

Shha

Well unless they add a raid debuff/buff to fury that will make it viable to bring BOTH arms and fury - it will always be the case. Either arms or fury will be prefered, and they will never reach balance.

That said - on the span of last years, I didnt like all the changes they made to fury/arms tree - namely ones that focused arms on pvp and fury on pve. However whats done is done, and right now my stance is : "Well fine, if you really pushed all pvp talents into arms, lets just go the whole way - put enrage and other stuff in arms, give BF to fury tree, and lets stop fooling ourselves and artificially boost arms viability".

Honestly it hardly matters what tree my talents are in. I could care less. Im interested in playstyles. So Id rather have them focus on making diff playstyles 2h/2x2h/2x1h viable instead of forcing us into talent trees