Shha

"Blood Frenzy: Increases physical damage done to target for 10 sec, after scoring a critical strike with a weapon wielded in 2 hands"

Just a quick fix - BF is in fury tree now, but you have to use a single 2h weapon to make use of it. There are other "options".

 

Lithose

Shield Block now increases chance to block and amount blocked by 100% for 5 seconds. Cooldown increased to 30 seconds.

Can anyone confirm that shield block no longer has charges and blocks all attack for 5 seconds? If so, thats an amazing change.

 

Liar

Downloading the patch at the moment, will check that when I am done.

Did you guys see the new Meta gems yet (MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies)? The new Defense Rating/Shield Block Value meta gem baffles me. It is supposed to be a level 80 version of [Eternal Earthstorm Diamond] but it's garbage. We get 9 Defense rating more but lose 5% BV in a world where Block Values will scale through the roof? No thanks.

What did Arms gain for it? I was somewhat expecting this after reading that they moved BF deeper into the Arms tree to prevent hybrid specs. I do believe they did that not to screw us over but in preparation of some synergy in the Fury tree itself (so you can't get both and - most importantly - don't have to get them both).

EDIT: I actually misread the "suggestion" as an actual "fix". My point still stands though, so I am not removing this part of the post.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Tornaz

The actual problem with pushing Blood Frenzy so much deeper is that it becomes impossible to obtain a build with Decent white output and Tactical Mastery - because you can't get Flurry, TM and BF in the same build.

Given that stance dancing (remember that, we haven't had to do it in a while) will be necessary in order to gain the use of the Bleed effects properly (and, side note, to use TClap - which may be necessary because prot is so bloated that the tanks won't have it improved), and that you need to have DW and Improved Slam (DW because Ignite rolling is apparently working, and therefore you want to use DW to trigger your highest possible bleed value at the initiation of a stack) in an Arms build. The lack of TM also remove a large portion of OT capability

I don't think the changes to BF have anything to do with Fury per se, because it's still as impossible to get BF with a TG build. If their concern is BF being defined as the "must have" talent in Arms, they are going the wrong way about reducing its impact on the talent spec. The deeper it goes, the most pigeonholed we are, because it is still, from a raid perspctive, the single best available warrior talent. This is why I said earlier that I would almost welcome a nerf and comensurate drop in talent tier level for BF.

If the developers wished to induce flexibility, lowering the talents to the 25+ level (i.e. putting it where Sudden Death is now) would make for much more variety in builds. 28/43 (Dual Wield, Weapon Spec, Blood Frenzy) would look a viable choice, as would a large variety of potential Arms builds with varying degrees of OT capability.

With BF where it is now, I can see exactly 1 semi-viable PvE DPS build. Is it really the intention of the developers to reduce DPS warrior participation in raids to simply being a BF (de)buff bot? This ultimately was the problem that Shadow priests have in TBC - their utility outweighing their personal presence.


Still, we obviously aren't done with - the other deep (40+) Arms talents still need a lot of work in order to be attractive, Protection still isn't finished (Vigilance is still to be replaced) and there's no way we're going live with only 5 points worth of talents in the 4th tier. Let us hope that the developers realise how much of a mistake this change was and revert it.

 

Liar

(In Professor Farnsworth voice) Good news everyone, the new Shield Block is amazing. It does indeed block everything while it is up. It basically gives you full immunity as long as it up during AoE pulls. Really handy indeed.

Testing was done in DPS gear + Shield:

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Darmon

Can you also check if you get SBV doubled for SSlam for those 5 sec? 1 uber SSlam each 20 sec ( or 2 if lucky with S&B procs) might make it interesting on terms of threat.

 

Liar

Shield Block still increases your Shield Slam damage, nothing changed there.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

◊ Birdemani

This is my confusion. They claimed the other day they knew the problem with Blood Frenzy forcing the non tank warrior into being the BF debuff player. At least before this change there were a few options available to you to at least make your playstyle a bit more fun. Now you have no options; you must be deep Arms.

 

Emeraude

What it seemed like they were trying to do with Blood Frenzy was make it so that in order to get that debuff and provide that utility you'd have to spec deep deep into the tree intentionally gimping your personal DPS, so that your personal DPS + Blood Frenzy/Trauma utility wasn't > Fury's DPS.

The current problems with Blood Frenzy atm are as follows:

Blood Frenzy is extremely powerful, to the point where it makes Fury Warriors are almost defunct on raids.
Blood Frenzy, again, is extremely powerful, to the point where people will spec into it, stop, then spec the rest Fury.
They do NOT want to give Blood Frenzy to Fury, because that would have the opposite effect of making the Arms tree defunct.
They do NOT want to put Blood Frenzy in a comfortable spot so Fury Warriors can get access to it, because then you'd have the debuff on top of Fury's DPS, which is too powerful.

Now did Blizzard succeed in their endeavor of nerfing Blood Frenzy to the above? I don't know, it's really hard to say, the 43/28 build isn't drastically different from 33/28, in fact it's a still a stronger build with Sudden Death, Trauma, the new Axe spec, etc, even with all the worthless filler stuff the Arms tree has before you get down to Blood Frenzy.

The change to Deep Wounds makes it slightly harder to keep up, but again, you can just rend if you really need to, the power of the build is the utility that you provide is huger then the personal DPS loss you'd take every 15-20 seconds keeping a bleed effect up.

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norikk

Not really, Arms still has PvP

Yeah but Fury DPS being too good can be easily fixed by tuning talents like Flurry, for example

 

Shha

43/28 build is consierably weaker because of WF change. You have to get rid of flurry to basically get weapons in desired speed range for slams. In other words while other builds trade the current WF extra attacks for extra haste, the BF build just loses current WF extras gaining nothing in return.


Ill repeat my main point, because I guess people get wrong impression of my posts. I see no reason for ARMS to be a viable warrior build. Please post one reason why they should keep ARMS viability. I completely agree that warriors should be able to use different PLAYSTYLES (2h, 2x2h, DW, slam or no slam - you know all those "options") and be competitive in pve (well at least 2 should be viable). However which TREE it will involve is really not important in my opinion. If they make Arms a PvP spec, and at same time diversify the fury tree internally - so it allows for few different competitive playstyles - it will be with a benefit to all warriors.

 

soverpowerd

I see no reason for FURY to be a viable warrior build. Please post one reason why they should keep FURY viability.
I see no reason for RET to be a viable paladin build. Please post one reason why they should keep RET viability
I see no reason for FERAL to be a viable DRUID build. Please post one reason why they should keep FERAL viability

Get the picture? It's how I like to play, we're not here to justify anything to you.

 

Emeraude

Blizzard wants both trees to be viable in PvE. I don't know why this is, or why they're going to such great lengths to do it, but based on Blood Frenzy/Trauma it's easy to see this is the case.

Well actually I do know why this is the case, like the poster above me said, they(Arms Warriors) want to have that playstyle in a raid.

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Liar

Arms is the PvP tree. Even if they removed all the PvE talents, people would still spec it.

I also have to agree with Emeraude here, I don't get why Blizzard wants to make all 3 trees PvE and PvP compatible. I'd rather they make one good PvP tree, one tanking tree and one PvE DPS tree where you still get to dib into the first 1-2 tiers of your non-primary tree for some added flavor. Blizzard is kidding themselves if they think people won't respec for PvP/PvE just because they spread out one or two PvP talents in each tree.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

soverpowerd

Let's try not to muddy the conversation with preconceptions about pvp trees and what not. What's a pally's pvp tree? holy? I've seen plenty of them do well in ret. How about warlocks? I know sl/sl used to be all the rage, but that's not their only way to play. It's obvious that blizzard has been attempting to change the game over the course of Burning Crusade. Every class will have it's optimal build for doing certain things, it's always going to be like that. And a pve focused arms spec isn't all that great for pvp. BF/Imp slam is, however, one of the more challenging specs to play in warcraft. Some of us like a challenge that way, some people like the hurr hurr mash buttonz style of fury. I really don't see the problem either way.

 

Liar

Warriors do one thing and only thing in PvP currently: Apply a healing debuff and DPS. You cannot compare them to other classes like Paladins because they can do more than just DPS. The comparison with Warlocks is better but then again, they only do damage without having to worry about applying a healing debuff to begin with so they got variations depending on the team (but so do Warriors: ER and the cookie cutter 33/28 spec - and some more as long as you get the key talents in arms).

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am all for different play styles like Shha mentioned, I just don't see the point in spreading out the PvP talents instead of consolidating them into one tree because there will only be 1 real PvP spec anyway (I have no hope of a working TG PvP build because of the hit/crit requirements). And if that happens to be Arms, then it wouldn't matter if BF would be removed from the tree if Blizzard can still model the trees in a way that you can play Slam spec with TG. Nothing would change for you, instead you'd put the points into the PvE tree and hit BT instead of MS.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Tornaz

I understand your points.

Point 1 you are entirely correct on. As I have said, the only real routes are to reduce the effectiveness of Blood Frenzy, or to add something to Fury which is equally desired for raiding purposes. Forcing BF deeper into Arms doesn't make it any less desirable - it just makes playing the Blood Frenzy warrior in a raid less flexibile in terms of talent specs, and therefore less fun. In addition, requiring 40+ Arms investment also makes it impossible to form a BF warrior which can also be a capable off-tank.

Point 2 is accurate, but it's important to realise that people aren't specing "fury" so much as they are speccing Flurry. One of the major things that has always held deep Arms utilisation back (and always will) is that any rational player wants Flurry. Drop Flurry a couple of ranks (place it where Enrage currently is, for example) and you would see a much wider range of deep Arms builds.

Regarding points 3 & 4, it's important to stop just discussing things in terms of deep talent trees. Deep Fury and Deep Arms are not the only possibilities. Hybridisation is important to consider. Anything over 21 deep in Arms excludes TG, which we are lead to believe is the premier high personal DPS talent.



Essentially, as it currently stands, Arms for raids is caught between the need for a highly effective PvE raid buff, the large number of very poor or useless talents in mid Arms, and Flurry.

That leaves exactly zero room for any tweaking, a lot of bad talent choices (as PvE is concerned), and no offtank capability.

 

Machinator

People speculate on whats the pvp/pve tree because blizzard hasn't said what they are trying to do. This is especially true when they do things that are the opposite of what little they mentioned.

"Nobody should get a raid spot because their one talent brings a huge dps (or mana or healing or health) benefit to the raid that no other spec can provide. "
...and then move BF deeper in arms.

They could have saved a lot of headaches if they just added that there is still more warrior stuff to come, add something to fury, nerf BF, or just a general direction. Right now for fury I don't know if they are trying to make it more viable for pvp, or give them something to equalize BF and trauma, or just give them a ton more dps. Makes it hard to evaluate anything without making assumptions on what blizzard wants to do. The only way to stop speculations is for the devs to state their intent.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Gellor

Well here's hoping they make MS trainable and give arms a new 31 point talent in our review. It could happen, I mean they made degeneration a core DK ability so that a deep unholy spec (Scourge Strike) didn't become the de facto DK PvP build. I'd like to think they would give warrior's the same consideration.

 

moxy

I'm kind of discouraged with the prot changes this weekend. Giving us the exact same Shield Wall as the pally is a buff sure, but it was an expected one, and it makes me feel much less unique. The only warrior advantage appeared to be that we take no threat penalty and we can talent it down to 4min with 2 points of questionable worth. And then the very next day, what happens? Paladins get 2 points to remove their threat penalty and reduce CD to 4min making it identical to ours, except that theirs is rolled into their no-brainer 6% stam talent...

And still vigilance remains.

 

Longhorn

Did they reduce the baseline cooldown of shieldwall from 30 minutes?

Because right now this change is baffling me: Improved Shield Wall now reduces the cooldown by 30/60 secs. (Previously increased duration by 3/5 secs)


2 Talent points to move an ability from a 30 minute cooldown to 29 minutes as absolute trash.

 

Ovidus

It's been mentioned several times the cooldown has been reduced to 5 minutes. Even the post above you notified it.

 

moxy

I think all the Blood Frenzy discussion is a little premature until we hear more about the much ballyhooed "Raid Debuff Review". It will probably be nerfed, removed, or made to overlap somehow with Expose Armor or Heart of the Crusader or some as yet unknown enhancement or DK talent. It will almost certainly not remain as is and unique.

 

Liar

I think we can be pretty sure that Imp Shield Wall will not stay as it is. It is most likely going to get a treatment a la Improved Disciplines - Spell - World of Warcraft for a secondary effects like increasing it's duration (or maybe merge with another talent, there are plenty of Shield based talents).
The changes before the Warriors get their pass are just small bonuses here and there, and I wouldn't be surprised if they only lowered the CD of our Disciplines this patch instead of in the "Warrior patch" because of the new Paladin Shield Wall to even things out and prevent most of our whining.

Plus, I don't see Vigiliance changing in a non-Warrior patch anyway, so no worries. It's our turn soon.

On a slightly unrelated topic, I'd like to see more talents like Improved Disciplines - Spell - World of Warcraft and Unrelenting Assault - Spell - World of Warcraft in our DPS trees. They are what I would call "Feral Druid talents" because they offer bonuses to both the tanking and DPS aspect of the class. Good stuff.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

kahmul

as i looked into scaling of def-warrior with strength being greatly increased with wotlk i took a side glance at the pala, who ought to wear almost the same gear by then.

for the warrior
Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Threat Modifier:
1.45 Def-Stance threat bonus
Dmg Modifier:
0.9 Def-Stance damage penalty
1.1 1H-Spec
~ 1.05 Cruelty
Strength Modifier:
1.1 Vitality
1.1 Kings
>1.8238 Full Modifier

Shield Slam: 1 Str= 0.5 BV = 0.5 Dmg before mod = 0.715 Dmg with shield mastery + imp SB
> 1.3 Threat/6sec = 0.22 Tps

Devastate: 1 Str = 2 Ap = 0.343 Dmg = 0.69 Dmg per 6sec rotation = 1.25 Threat/6sec = 0.21 Tps

Auto hit: 1 Str = 2 Ap = 1/7 Dps = 0.26 Tps

Heroic strike through Incite: <0.15*auto hit dps = 0.039 Tps

Assuming we skip Revenge (does not scale) an using TC instead (apparently scale with 0.1*Ap before talents now)

Thunder Clap: 1 Str = 2 Ap = 0.2 Dmg before talents = 0.46 Dmg with imp TC and Incite = 0.805 Threat (1.75 Tc-Modifier) =
1.47 Threat/6sec = 0.25 Tps

Shockwave: 1 Str = 2 AP = 0.5 Dmg = 0.157 Dmg increase clipping Devastate = 0.286 Threat/20sec = 0.015 Tps

Taking a positive calculation towards Sword and Board assuming it would not replace a threat skill and occur
without disturbing the rotation (SS CD) we have ~ 3ppm adding per 1 Str = 3.9 Threat/60sec = 0.065 Tps

==> 1Str = 1.058 Tps

The actual scaling would be a lot worse as no armor modifiers are included. The usage of
Revenge is probably still preferable due to its high base dmg/base threat. Sword and board is going
to perform even worse under live circumstances.

whereas the pala would be
Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Threat Modifier:
1.9 Righteous Fury (not enhancing auto hit)
Dmg Modifier:
1.05 1h-Spec
Additionally for spells: 0.91 for hit difference spells - physical school
Strength Modifier:
1.15 Divine strength
1.1 Kings
>2.523675 full modifier

Shield of Righteous: 1 Str = 0.5 Bv = 1 Dmg before mod =
1.495 with shield of templar and Shield spec = 3.77 Threat/6sec = 0.63 Tps

hammer of righteous: 1 Strength = 2 AP =
taking a 2.4 speed weapon: 0,342 dmg before mod = 0.86 Threat/6sec = 0.14 Tps

auto hit: 1 Str = 2 AP = 1/7 Dps before mod = 0.19 Tps

Seal of Righteous: 1 Str = 2 Ap = 0.09 Dps before mod = 0.23 Tps

Judgement of Righteous 1 Str = 2 AP = 0.9 dmg before mod = 2.06 Threat/8sec = 0,26 Tps

Consecration: 1 Str = 2 Ap = 0.07 dps before mod = 0.17 Tps


==> 1 str = 1.54 Tps

The actual numbers could differ, as this calculation dose not include the possibility of using
Avangers shield while tanking, using Exorcism/Holy wrath against Undead/Demons and skilling
Seals of the Pure/Reckoning for more threat. Threat is scaled down slightly by armor for auto hit
whereas all other skills deal holy dmg. The calculations do not include possible cooldown overlays
causing skills to become available at the same time.

applying armor values as they appear in bc (20-30% dmg reduction with SA,CoR, without armor pen) the pala seems to scale almost twice as good as the warrior. I'm pretty interested how/whether this will be balanced to contain the usefulness of both classes at all gear levels.