And of course, all being deep talents means you can't just crossspec and get a massive scaling talent, which is apparently seen as bad by Blizzard. I guess that is the idea behind them being in all trees, but not shareable. They want deep specs to gain something in terms of scaling.
But if the idea is to prevent players from having more than one of these talents, why not just have 1 talent (or one for STR and one for STA)?
That way there's still no way of gaining multiple bonuses by crossspecing, and every deep spec can get a moderately scaling talent.
It's just odd that there are very similar effects available in every tree, but taking up much more of the available talent real estate than a unified talent would.
It almost looks like seperate designers have each thought that their tree could benefit from the same bonuses.
These talents are rewards for speccing that deep into a tree, putting them up as Tier 1 talent would destroy that. Imagine if every Druid, regardless of spec, could grab Heart of the Wild - Spell - World of Warcraft, where would be uniqueness of being a Feral Druid go?
Now, don't get me wrong. I understand why the Prot Tree has Vitality - Spell - World of Warcraft because as a Prot specced tank you want to have more health than a DPS spec would and the Strength scales nicely for BV, threat and Prot DPS (But it's not enough, currently Arms gets 5% health via talents, Fury 6% Stamina via talents which are all better than Vitality for our health pool. The DPS specs get more health than the actual tanking tree - what gives?). I don't, however, get the purpose of Strength of Arms - Spell - World of Warcraft at all. It's a boring concept to just add stats like that, especially for a DPS spec. Atleast Furious Resolve - Spell - World of Warcraft reduces your threat on top of giving you more health.
Actually, now that I am done typing this I feel like I have to agree with you. Why aren't they making a Tier 1 talent that gives us 5% more health if all specs end up with one of these talents to begin with? The add a +10-15% Strength talent somewhere in Prot and tack on the -threat on some Fury talent and come up with something to take the place of Strength of Arms. Guess these talents aren't comparable to Heart of the Wild - Spell - World of Warcraft at all, but I wish we had such talents in each of trees. A real reward for speccing so far down.
Exactly. if it was a unique effect from one tree, then of course it wouldn't make sense to make it available to all. But when it's a duplicated talent from all of the trees, why not consolidate?
All I can say is Divine Strength - Spell - World of Warcraft. A tier 1 talent (arguably) better than our tier 10 talent, easily accessible for any spec (ret or prot) it might be useful to. I'd rather they just get rid of Strength of Arms and put in a talent that adds some real flavor for the position in the tree that it's in. Such as a proc on Mortal Strike critical hits to allow stance changes for ~6 seconds with no rage penalty, for example. Just imagine the possibilities for both PvE and PvP.
These talents are rewards for speccing that deep into a tree, putting them up as Tier 1 talent would destroy that. Imagine if every Druid, regardless of spec, could grab Heart of the Wild - Spell - World of Warcraft, where would be uniqueness of being a Feral Druid go?
Now, don't get me wrong. I understand why the Prot Tree has Vitality - Spell - World of Warcraft because as a Prot specced tank you want to have more health than a DPS spec would and the Strength scales nicely for BV, threat and Prot DPS (But it's not enough, currently Arms gets 5% health via talents, Fury 6% Stamina via talents which are all better than Vitality for our health pool. The DPS specs get more health than the actual tanking tree - what gives?). I don't, however, get the purpose of Strength of Arms - Spell - World of Warcraft at all. It's a boring concept to just add stats like that, especially for a DPS spec. Atleast Furious Resolve - Spell - World of Warcraft reduces your threat on top of giving you more health.
Actually, now that I am done typing this I feel like I have to agree with you. Why aren't they making a Tier 1 talent that gives us 5% more health if all specs end up with one of these talents to begin with? The add a +10-15% Strength talent somewhere in Prot and tack on the -threat on some Fury talent and come up with something to take the place of Strength of Arms. Guess these talents aren't comparable to Heart of the Wild - Spell - World of Warcraft at all, but I wish we had such talents in each of trees. A real reward for speccing so far down.
That was my point. "Congratulations, you made it this far down the tree, here is your cookie."
Now, wether the talents are actually worthy of such a destinct position is another matter. I feel that Furious Resolve and Vitality are (Vitality could use a change to the Stam%, seems odd the other specs get more), while Strength of Arms is definately MEH.
As I see it, that is one of the core problems with talent system as it is. If some talents becomes "must-have" then why even bother having it as a talent, why not just give it as a learned ability? Why have to micro-manage huge amounts of points if the vast majority of us ends up in min-maxed cookie-cutter builds or slight variations of such?
I'm getting more and more bored and annoyed with the talent tree system. I think a much better alternative would be an Inscription-like system with a few largely cosmetic talents and a some major ones that caters to a specific style (massive 2-hander, nimble dual-wielding, stout 1-hand and shield ...pandaren kung-fu?). Give all the basic talents to all but make a few major talents improve on them. As a poster suggested above, all could get a watered down Mortal Strike and a talent to bring it up to it's current level, and so on.
It would be endlessly easier to balance for Blizzard as well, and it would allow classes to be more flexible and shine at both being controllers and dps/healing. For raiding you'd still want to the talents that emphasize your role for better min-maxing, of course, but even when not performing that role, you'd be decent.
You could make some of the talents require quests to visit weapon masters or defeat this or that enemy (much like the current warrior quests) or such in order to only allow certain levels certains talents.
I hadn't really thought of it in that way but reading the above this whole talent thing is just going to get more and more unworkable as the expansions tick by...anyone for a respec with 101 talent points or more.
When it comes down to it each tree in any class has at most 1-2 routes to the high end talents (2 for PvE and PvP at best - 1 if "avoiding the dross" is the best you can do)
You could replace the lower teirs with a single mega-talent that subsumes the "default" options in previous teirs into a predictable/testable 1-click option e.g:
Then the expansion adds a set of 3 new teirs of talents to provide a level of relevent customisation without the whole need to test interactions / synergies and assumptions about what talents a "raid tank" will have taken (with the consumate room for error and frustration on the part of new players that a "wrong spec" leads too).
The whole point of talents is to customize your characters. Whatever they'll do, there will always be one build that's better than the others, with a few talent points you can actually customize depending on your gear level / playstyle / whatever. They want talents to be no brainer to make the whole balancing task easier, obviously.
Put a 5 points talent in a tree that's so awesome all the players will take it, there you go, you know a fury warrior will go deep into the tree to get TG, and you can balance lower tier arms / prot talents according to that because the player will have only x talent points to use there.
I see that as necessary really. And they really should make the 51 points talents so nice you will want them and will sacrifice whatever you have to to get them, for the same reason. That would not only ease the talent trees balancing but "force" players to go deep in their main talent tree and reduce the number of hybrids, which they seem to want to.
I took Imp Zerk Rage simply because if we're gonna have a Stormstrike-like ability as Enraged Assault (NYI) - Spell - World of Warcraft , might as well make the best out of popping Zerk Rage every 30 seconds. Hell, it might even out the rage gen coupled with Anger Management.
However, there is something wrong with that build, and that is 5/5 Unbridled Wrath.
Im sure 5/5 wont be needed to get 1 rage every swing, so as to get the other points in Imp Demo or something else (most probably Imp Demo). So im just curious if there are any of you in beta who could calc that out to see if we would need 2/5 or 3/5.
This will probably be obsolete if our talent review is thorough, but its still a good question.
I took Imp Zerk Rage simply because if we're gonna have a Stormstrike-like ability as Enraged Assault (NYI) - Spell - World of Warcraft , might as well make the best out of popping Zerk Rage every 30 seconds. Hell, it might even out the rage gen coupled with Anger Management.
However, there is something wrong with that build, and that is 5/5 Unbridled Wrath.
Im sure 5/5 wont be needed to get 1 rage every swing, so as to get the other points in Imp Demo or something else (most probably Imp Demo). So im just curious if there are any of you in beta who could calc that out to see if we would need 2/5 or 3/5.
This will probably be obsolete if our talent review is thorough, but its still a good question.
I think you're going to want 1/2 Improved Whirlwind to synch WW and BT rotations in a 2:3 ratio
I hadn't really thought of it in that way but reading the above this whole talent thing is just going to get more and more unworkable as the expansions tick by...anyone for a respec with 101 talent points or more.
I think that would be good timing to release WoW II rather than invest all resources into balancing. Or raise the level cap w/o introducing new talent points. Some sort of paradigm shift.
I do find some of the high-tier warrior talents, that buff stam and/or str, rather dull. The choice between them is like "battle vs. commanding shout" but w/o the conveniences of real-time selection and shared effect.
That build makes me wonder how enraged assault will affect TG. Before that skill best TG use was 21/50 with imp slam and full slam rotation: This leads to:
a) Having imp slam AND bloodsurge is pointless. With a slam rotation (which seems in modelling a lot better) bloodsurge is completely wasted.
b) Berserker Rage is somewhat pointless in a slam rotation, because it eats a gcd. Bloodrage on other hand works fine (it is enrage effect as far as i know)
c) In a slam rotation imp WW is pointless since you use it every 2 BT, aka every 12 seconds regardless.
d) You have 1 free gcd every 12 seconds or 10 in 2 minutes. Its tight enough. You will want to refresh Rampage every 24 seconds (36 obviously doesnt work), so 5 times. You need to refresh battleshout at least once. It leaves only 4 gcds up. Using zerker rage->enraged assault would fit in nicely, but unfortunately it takes 2gcds. So you will use 2xBR + enraged assault, leaving only 2 "slots" for zerker rage+enraged assault, It will also take slam spot, thus giving you less damage then expected. Any more enraged assaults are bad.
All in all the "TG no slam" , gained 2xenraged assault compared to "Slam TG" with the latest changes. I still think its better to go with slams, but it definitely leaves you with more to think of. Still 3% hit, extra rage on zerker rage is not worth losing either aggro reduction with furious resolve, or 5% damage through 2h spec.
Two talent suggestions that I took from a delirium last night.
Heroic Leap (51 Arms) - You leap through the air when using your Intercept ability, removing all movement-impairing abilities on you. In addition, your Intercept stun affects all enemies in 5 yards.*
Titan's Grip (51 Fury) - Allows you to equip two-handed axes, maces and swords in one hand. **
*the leap would help on PvP by overcoming some obstacles like the tomb in the middle of Lordaeron, for example, and you would always see the nice animation when Intercepting - fun!
** swing time reduction to be defined by testing - 0% might be overpowered, and I suck at math.
Doesn't it look cleaner, or am I just silly? If they want TG to be the defining talent of the Fury tree, make it a real reason to spec all into Fury!
P.S.: If anyone thinks this is a good enough idea to be brought to the beta forums, think about something to replace TG on the current tree :P
Well if we are into figuring own talents, what I would LIKE to happen is as follows - feel free to bash my idea.'
Below is completely fictional ideas (since I already got an infraction when someone thought my ideas were listed as real talents ).
Fury tree - gets BF and remains staple of dps for pve - rogue like if you want. Titan grip is moved to around Rampage level and made 1 talent at -30% haste. At current TG level there is a new talent - "imp TG" reducing haste penaltyAND increasing the MELEE (white) damage while under TG effect by 2/4/6/8/10%. It makes TG a clear upgrade to 2xDW when fully specced (and 50 pointers should be like that), while allowing some TG/arms combinations with weapon specs/sudden death etc. The BF infusion in Fury tree would be balanced in personal dps by losing in reality access to 2h spec/weapon specs completely.
Arms tree - I was thinking about overpower ideas posted in this threat. Making arms tree oriented on dpsing in battle stance looks promising to me , and would let for a totally different playstyle.
a) Overpower would be changed to be active after parries as well. That would allow for a dps style "from front" - unique to all melee.
b) Unrelenting Assault. Reduces cooldown of Overpower and Revenge by 1/2/3 and gives you 33/66/100% chance of activating Overpower after own parry.
c) Strength of Arms. Gives 10/20/30/40/50% bonus to parry against INDIRECT melee attacks, and reduces enemy physical damage by 3/6/9/12/15% after parrying their attack for x seconds in BATTLE STANCE in addition to current effect. Indirect attacks = whirlwinds/cleaves(not main target)/Sweeping Strikes and such.
d) Trauma. Increases own bleed damage by 25/50% in addition to current effect.
Such change would make Fury a staple tree for rogue-like dps, and would give Arms a truly unique spot:
- Stand in front, which does let you often fit extra melee on a lot of fights
- Based on bleed damage in PvE, with frequent overpowers, rends,bloodbaths (all in battle stance) with proper multipliers
- Help tanking on a lot of encounters by reducing physical damage of mobs if you stand in front and eat cleaves (and in battle stance with a good 60+% parry and 5-10% dodge,5% miss it could be justified to "eat cleaves" in order to reduce damage on tanks)
- Overpower would be a huge dps boost considering 6+16% or so parry+dodge.
Thats a bit of dreaming, but it appeals to me much more then forcing us arms down the throat by adding BF.
In addition it would actually "make sense" with the talents, which somewhat bothers me. Overpower should be tied to parry more then dodge. I understand the change was made specifically to combat rogues , but the corelation between overpowering and enemy trying to parry your hits makes most sense .
The whole point of talents is to customize your characters. Whatever they'll do, there will always be one build that's better than the others, with a few talent points you can actually customize depending on your gear level / playstyle / whatever. They want talents to be no brainer to make the whole balancing task easier, obviously.
Put a 5 points talent in a tree that's so awesome all the players will take it, there you go, you know a fury warrior will go deep into the tree to get TG, and you can balance lower tier arms / prot talents according to that because the player will have only x talent points to use there.
I see that as necessary really. And they really should make the 51 points talents so nice you will want them and will sacrifice whatever you have to to get them, for the same reason. That would not only ease the talent trees balancing but "force" players to go deep in their main talent tree and reduce the number of hybrids, which they seem to want to.
See, but that's my point. If talents becomes "no brainers" with the option to customize with only the few talent points left, why bother with having to place 51, 61, 71 ... talent points to get to the cookie cutter build? Make the lovely 51 point talent into a questable "major inscription" that is available at level 70 or so.
With an inscription-like system, you'd still have customizing and synergies, but without all the pointless micromanagement.
I know a number of people on the beta forums are posting about reworking stances a bit. I know one thing I'd like to see is the stances reworked as follows:
Battle Stance: Allow warrior to use all abilities in battle stance.
Berserker Stance: Do 10% more damage.
Defensive Stance: Take 10% less damage.
Edit: Oops, just take 10% less damage, not Do 10% less.
Remove penalty from Berserker Stance.
Remove penalty from Defensive Stance.
Add a new passive bonus for being in Battle Stance that is balanced with 3% crit and 10% less damage taken of the other 2 stances, maybe also add an Improved Battle Stance talent in arms.
Having all abilities usable in battle stance removes some of the flavor of the class to me.
I frankly don't see how Arms can ever serve any role other than buff-bot in a raid setting, due to the superiority of the dual-wielding mechanic and how itemization favors it. This is more or less how it functions in BC, and while developers have said their goal is not for Arms Warriors to be BF bots in WotLK, I don't see how they can balance Arms personal DPS for raids without unbalancing it for PvP. Here's to hoping they stop trying to make Arms raid-worthy and just make Fury the raid DPS tree.
But I know it won't happen, so here's something else. What if Imp. Slam was trainable? Specifically, replace Imp. Slam with another talent* and make Slam a 0.5 sec cast for all Warriors. Assuming Blizz introduces deep Arms talents that don't fucking blow, it would be a step in reducing Arms dependence on the Fury tree. Flurry is the other killer talent, but if Blizz designs Arms PvE around Slamming Flurry isn't very desirable anyway, especially with the Windfury change.
* The talent taking Imp. Slam's place could easily be the Fury raid-buff that we've all been clamoring for. The point of moving Imp. Slam to the trainer is to validate deep Arms, so hypothetically it wouldn't be practical for either Warrior spec to get both Blood Frenzy and whatever the Fury raid buff talent is.
IMO Slam needs to stop clipping attacks, just like they did change to Steady Shot.
That way we have a smoother (and deadlier) DPS rotation based on instants and not cast time.
I understand players who like that playstyle, but IMO any spec that REQUIRES you to have an addon to work is just dumb.
It wouldnt be too much OP either, even if it is they can either up the rage cost or down heroic strike's. It would solve Arms personal DPS too.
I just dont see the purpose of Slam resetting swing timer. We already have to fight against our large GCD, why having to fight against swing time as well?
The days of WTFPWN Warriors from Pre-BC are long gone and we need a serious revamp in order to be as effective as the other classes. I understand the "i beat on you head with this, you die!" class philosophy, but if they dont want to give us the damage, why even bother?
There, now i feel better...spent too much time looking at the other classes' new fun tools :S
I frankly don't see how Arms can ever serve any role other than buff-bot in a raid setting.
I don't think anyone has a problem with "Arms as a buff bot" in raids per se. What I think people have problems with are "Arms as the only viable choice because its buffs vastly outwiegh the personal DPS of Fury" and "Arms personal DPS being nerfed to hell because of the power of the buffs it provides"
I always wondered why Warriors didn't get something like this (ignore the root effect). The idea of getting an extra benefit from parrying attacks seems like a good thing to me because parry haste alone doesn't really differentiate it much from other forms of avoidance. The ability could either fire passively or automatically, it doesn't matter much I guess.
I always wondered why Warriors didn't get something like this (ignore the root effect). The idea of getting an extra benefit from parrying attacks seems like a good thing to me because parry haste alone doesn't really differentiate it much from other forms of avoidance. The ability could either fire passively or automatically, it doesn't matter much I guess.
08/14/08, 7:22 AM
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