Liar

Up the Shield Block modifier as high as you need to fully block raid boss hits (4-5xBV maybe?), then up it's cool down to reflect the change that you can be immune to physical damage for 5 seconds every X seconds. That would turn SB from a semi-spammable skill into a real emergency button which could be a nice Warrior-only perk. It has the nice bonus of letting us open with some big TPS burst - but if that turns out to be too much for PvP, then I wouldn't mind if SB didn't increase our SS damage if it meant that SB would keep it's new, bigger BV modifier.

Also, taken from another thread, Fellwraith said he mitigates around 9% of the physical damage Brutallus throws at him. I think this is pretty impressive since Brutallus is the hardest hitting boss I can think of. Now that is with the old SB where you block nearly all his swings but I imagine passive crush immunity will be part of Warrior tanking because that's how gear will end up progressing. Now with a higher base BV in Wrath, I assume people will go out of their way to collect Block Rating gear just to achieve this early on because BR will be a really cheap way to pump up your effective armor.

So much for the good sides of the Str-->BV conversions but as I said earlier, this can very well screw us over ragewise because we can't just turn off our BV. Str will be on our tanking gear, if we like it or not. We can't swap it out so let's really hope Blizzard is aware of what might happen to our rage generation if we end up blocking all trash/5 man mob's swings fully.

PS: Plate Armor - Items - World of Warcraft is a pretty good link to check the Str/Sta values of tanking pieces. On some pieces Str is allocated the same or even more item budget as Stamina (keep in mind Stamina is 50% cheaper so you have to divide the Sta number by 1.5 to make it a fair comparison to Strength).

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Rustik

I'm not sure I consider the high block value derived from strength quite as detrimental as you say. Yes, in lower level instances, blocking full blows will result in less rage, but with all the extra strength, is it guaranteed we will need to spam abilities like we do now? Currently our only threat scaling is really how much rage we generate. as gear goes up, rage goes down, threat goes down.

If your block value s going up from strength, then when you can full-block a 5-man mob, you'll still do a fair amount of damage with the abilities you do spam.

Now, of course, there's a balancing act in there, but once the numbers are tweaked it should work out ok.

I poked around in wowhead, and in tempered saronite, the two daunting pieces, and the saronite shield, you end up with about 600 block. Not impressive considering what you can reach in live tanking gear, but these aren't by any means top end gear. Heck it all ranges from level 75-80. I can see 1000+ block value in your standard tanking set for end game, not just your threat only set.

I kinda like the idea of making shield block an uber multiplier, but then it might need to come back down to charges, instead of duration. Personally, I'd prefer shorter cooldown mitigation tricks to long cooldown immunities.

 

PSGarak

Well, if warriors aren't expected to have a constant 100% block rate in most situations, blocks are allowed to be unreasonably powerful. There's some blue comments to the effect of prot pallies are the least-complete tanks, so I wouldn't take their passive 100% block as set in stone anymore. This contingencies really does divide how the dice will fall.

If pallies drop to a comparable amount of block uptime, then shield are allowed to block insane amounts of damage, on the level of a raid tank being able to full-block most 5-man bosses and PvP white damage. Under this scenario, shield block wouldn't need any change, since the average mitigation is non-trivial.

If pallies still retain constant-block, or perhaps even if they don't, then block has to remain at sane levels, like 20% of a 5-man boss's swings. Now, what I'm about to say is heretical, but the possibilities fork yet again, depending on how much more damage raid bosses do than 5-man bosses. It's possible that a raid boss, especially a 10-man raid boss, may not hit more than, say, twice as hard as a 5-man heroic boss, he'll just make up for it by swinging more often and having specials. This would also require a shakedown of healing mechanics as well, but their changes (especially downranking and spirit) would be much more functional if healing were changed to consistent high throughput with low chance of sudden death. Blizzard is unlikely to change the game in that way, but they've done a lot of unlikely things already. Anyways, point is, it's not written in stone that boss mobs hit for twice your health pool, that's just the way it's been done previously and breaking that pattern has different ramifications for shield block.

If hits don't get much larger as you progress, shield block can stay where it is. If and only if boss mobs hit for outrageous amounts and you are not allowed to block for outrageous amounts because protection pallies retain 100% holy shield uptime, then Shield Block (both the active skill and the mechanic) slide off into uselessness for end-game raids. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just differentiates raid mechanics (playstyle, gearing, theorycrafting) from lower-end mechanics, and possibly 10-mans from 25-mans. It would be interesting to see T8-9 10-man gear suboptimal for T7 25-man content because of the BR and BV ilvl sinks, similar to resilience on PvP gear.

If you want shield block to always be relevant, which is not an unreasonable request since it has been a class-defining tank skill up until now, then it always needs to mitigate noticeable amounts of damage while active. In TBC this was done through the (bullshit) mechanic of mitigating crushing blows. If the natural block itself is not significant, then as you say it could up BV by retarded amounts without unbalancing lower tiers because of its cooldown, or it could also add a %-reduction to either blocked attacks or to the Shield Block ability itself. Or, it could end up transitioning to a pure threat ability with Shield Slam.

So yeah, there's a bunch of different ways it could go. Rage starvation is supposedly less of an issue with higher DPS going out, we'll see how that one plays out as well.

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Lithose

So far, the patch contains some sizable nerfs to warriors, yes, nerfs..Enrage reduced to 15%..Mace stun is totally removed, instead it now just produces ten rage (Wow).

I hope the rest is being dug up, because, I'm speechless, frankly...The class is in such bad shape in beta right now that its almost comical and they continue on with the nerfs?

 

Liar

They are reducing the RNG reliance of Warriors so they can buff us in places we need - atleast that's what I like to think. Remove/Change Imp Hamstring and we are at a point where we don't have to rely on RNG anymore so we can start getting substantial buffs, preferably ones that require more thoughtful execution than spamstring.

Really, if you look at the WF burst nerf, Sword Spec nerf and Hamstring not doing any damage anymore it's all pointing at good things to come for Warrior PvP.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Chirality

That's a big *if* on the Improved Hamstring, though I completely agree with you. I can't help but think that this is just preparing for a very large talent review. I'll be honest about current warriors in arena: I often feel like the existence of Mace Stuns and Improved Hamstring is the only thing keeping warriors powerful.

The enrage change is very odd though, especially considering the (not implemented?) 4x damage multiplier of Rend/Bloodbath/etc on Enraged targets.

Edit:

However, Fury warriors seem to be going towards RNG even more, now. Consider a Titan's Grip warrior (assuming it's worth taking) that gets lucky enough to crit BT (instant Slam) and gets lucky enough to crit (or at least hit) auto-attacks and whirlwinds. Potentially unhealable burst damage gained through high-variance crit/hit/miss rolls on Auto+Auto+BT+WW+Slam. It's not enough to just define RNG as procs of Stun/Root--you have to consider the (already high) randomization of regular attacks, compounded by 'on crit' abilities (instant slam) and even Sudden Death.

For what it's worth, I'm unconvinced that RNG is really being minimized successfully in Wrath. Look at Frost Mages, for example. 15% chance to proc instant&free fireballs? Fingers of frost? The majority of dispel resistance talents are unchanged, as are many 'chance to resist fear/stun' talents (Priest's, for example).

But this is clearly a 'wait and see' time.

 

Liar

There was some database entry floating around of a Warrior skill where you could consume your Enrage status (or a charge, although they removed those now) to hit with all equipped weapons. Maybe they deemed this new functionality too much for a 25% Enrage although I definitely don't share that sentiment. I doubt I would spec Enrage if the trees went live as they are now because there are just too many counters for it. Rend/Bloodbath being the biggest offenders, then Tranq shot that dispels Enrage completely comes second. So yeah, Enrage better offer something good to compensate apart from just the 15% damage buff.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Muggins

I believe the enrage change is aimed at making Enraged Assault implemented smoothly. At least it would seem annoying to me to see it light up and go to hit it only to find out that your enrage charges have all been eaten up by white attacks.

 

Mild Confusion

The hamstring change bothered me mostly because I would no longer have a reliable way to spam kill shaman totems, unless maybe rend could work. I've never bothered to even try to rend a totem...

 

Chirality

I'm not sure about that... I don't think I have ever used all of my enrage charges in PvP (with a 2'her), and the only time I've ever used all Enrage charges in PvE was dps-tanking trash waves in Mount Hyjal (a bit of resilience from PvP gear to not be crit procs Enrage).

Regardless, I was actually referring to Enrage being nerfed from 25% damage to 15% damage.

Edit:

To further the Enraged Assault discussion--I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impresssion that both Bloodrage and Berserker Rage counted as 'Enrage' effects.

Edit 2:

You can't Rend Totems to kill them, nor can you (for example) Shadow Word: Pain them. And I think we all share your concern about Hamstring's damage being removed--it's not just a nerf to killing totems, but also an indirect nerf to Sword Spec, Mace Spec, and Deep Wounds. Not to mention that the damage from Hamstring in PvP does eventually add up--after all, I do hamstring as literally every other ability.

 

Borodin

And more changes:

* Enrage (Fury) now increases damage done by 3/6/9/12/15%, limitation on number of attacks removed.
* Improved Charge (Arms) now generates 5/10 rage.
* Improved Sunder Armor (Protection) renamed Puncture.
* Mace Specialization (Arms) no longer stuns enemies, and now generates 10 rage.
* Shield Wall now reduces all damage taken by 60% for 12 seconds, cooldown reduced to 5 minutes.
* Thunder Clap damage increased, cooldown increased.

Anyone know the details of the Thunderclap change? Looks like the promised 5-target change was dropped in favour of increased damage.

 

Muggins

I was thinking more of dual wield with charges being eaten.

As far as i'm aware you're correct about bloodrage and zerker rage counted as a new 'enrage effect'.

 

Emeraude

This was posted on the beta boards by one of the testers, but he hasn't cited his source yet, so take with a grain of salt.

Titan's Grip - only 1 rank. all speed penalties removed.
Unending Fury (new tier10 fury talent) - reduces rage by 1/2/3/4/5 on ww/cleave/bt, and gives Enraged Assault 6/12/18/24/30% chance to refresh Bloodthirst.
Intensify Rage - changed to reduce cooldown on Bloodrage, Berserker Rage, Recklessness and Deathwish by 33% (rank3)
Taste for Blood (new arms talent) - Whenever your Rend ability causes damage, you have a 10/20/30% chance of allowing the use of your Overpower ability

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Ziggurat

I posted that. Here are more changes:

Thunderclap cooldown increased from 4 sec to 6 sec.
Shield block cooldown increased from 30 sec to 60 sec.
Wrecking Crew (new tier 10 arms talent) - Your melee critical hits have a 20/40/60/80/100 chance to Enrage you, increasing all damage caused by 3/6/9/12/15% for 12 sec.
Improved MS - buffed to 2/4/6/8/10% more dmg per rank, and 6/12/18/24/30% chance for enraged assault to reset cooldown of MS
Unrelenting Assault - buffed from 1/2 sec off overpower/revenge cooldowns to 2/4
Justified Killing (new arms talent) - 3/6 rage after parrying an attack (2 ranks)
Furious Attacks (replaced furious resolve in fury) - Your normal melee attacks have a 50/100% chance to reduce all healing done to the target by 25% for 8 sec. This can stack up to 2 times. (2 ranks)
Improved zerker rage - buffed from 5/10 rage to 10/20 rage
Deathwish - is now flagged as an "enrage" (can be tranq'd and eaten by Enraged Assault)

*edit*
Bladestorm - gets 1 more tick (6.0 sec duration vs old 4.5)
Blood Frenzy - nerfed to 1/2% dmg vs old 2/4% dmg.

 

Charsi

Any sign of threat reduction talent deep in Arms?

Edit: For those interested, mmo's talent calculators appear to be updated.

Improved Slam is in Arms now. Rampage is passive, buffs your party's crit rate by 5%. Flurry is unlinked.

 

Chirality

Interesting....

I suddenly get the impression that everyone is going to be Fury in PvP now? Arms had a good multi-year run.

Like I was saying a few posts ago, RNG is *not* dead--it just won't be RNG due to Mace Stun, now (if this is true).

 

Emeraude

Good god, talent calculator updated

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior

I think I'm excited for the first time since beta started for my Warrior.

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Axl_Stukov

Am I reading this talent calculator right? Is enrage no longer linked to Flurry?

 

Bitesize

Wow, talent changes are insane. I'm excited.

Flurry not linked to Enrage, Fury gets a passive MS, no speed penalty on Titan's Grip... wow. And the Arms stuff is nice too.

Edit: Wouldn't be a bit surprised if Rampage doesn't stack with Leader of the Pack, given what they've said about making sure there's more than 1 class that can give most any raid buff.

 

Emeraude

Enrage is no longer linked to Flurry
Rampage buffs the raid 5% crit
Imp Slam is in the Arms tree

It's like they listened to me on the beta boards, it's wonderful. ^_^

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PSGarak

Hey, Improved Slam in the arms tree. It's out of reach of TG now, although 2H spec isn't.

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gia

I'm noticing a lot of new enraging effects, death wish, wrecking crew, etc... combined with the new Enraged Assault skill this is going to be interesting.

Edit: Thunderclap CD is 6 seconds and number of targets is 0 (place holder)
Recklessness = 100% crit chance on the next 3 special abilities, if it counts as an enrage you can probably do ms/bt -> ww -> enraged assault to consume the effect.

 

Kandryn

At last some excellent changes.

5% crit for raid members with rampage...WOW!

 

Borodin

My current theory on the optimal Raid MT build:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

17/0/54 (Revenge taken assuming it will scale, Cruelty skipped assuming other talents will compensate).
The Prot Talents can be jigged about a bit.

 

Tornaz

Woah, an Arms tree I might be willing to put more than 35 points in. That's new.

Taste for Blood with Improved Overpower and Unrelenting Assault (with, I suppose, Improved Rend for good measure) is very tempting. Shame it doesn't work on all bleeds.

Unrelenting Assault would now put overpower onto a 1 second CD. Has the base CD of overpower changed at all?