My 17/0/54 build felt less appealing once I had slept on it. Too much reliance on Heroic Strike (and crits from that) and no Cruelty as I raced headlong towards Justified Killing. HS crits might be great but it's 5% less Devastate, Shield Slam and Revenge Crits.

I think it's pretty clear that a Prot tree overhaul is coming soon so I shall reserve judgement until I see a replacement for Stalwart Protector, improvements (and rename) to Sword and Board, improved Critical Block and a new talent in place of Vigilance.

And of course Expertise being added back in plus new ranks and scaling design of Revenge which are conspicuously absent.

Vigilance doesn't seem worth having, so I'd take that point and put it Critical Block.

Sword and Board also seems iffy on being worth it, and I remove those 5 points, Shockwave isn't worth going for, unless the threat is so high as to be must have [hopefully the future prot tree work really helps these top end talents out]. So it may be better to max out Critical Block, Impale, Deep Wounds and Cruelty instead:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

At the end, though, why did they take our parry rage away and move it somewhere that's stretching a bit to get to [especially once they make Protection Tree have some really nice talents at the bottom]?

Stalwart Protector is gone from Protection and Arms got a weaker version of it. What's the meaning of this?

I assume the new wording on Shield Mastery means that it will now work on BV we get from Str?

Liar:

I think it means we have to wait for the Prot overhaul or consider speccing 17 points into Arms.

Regarding SBV you could be right I'd just assumed it was a cosmetic change to better match what it already did. Since SBV will primarly come from Strength this has to be the case.

Instead 17 arms you can allways consider 15 fury, delivering 25% more AP from BS, therefore affecting all threat skills except Revenge and Shield Slam ( really ironiv on last one)
Or even 20 fury and lose 5 avoidance for 25% more powerfull Shield Slam. Again ironic it does not have synergi with previouse talent that increase AP. Imp TC should not pose a problem in raid enviroment, where 3-4 classes can provide it, and Shockwave in theory is better threat wise. Ofc, that leaves out 5 men groups, but who cares about them anymore when devs want to balance everything in terms of raiding (that comming from blues).

Is Deep Wounds reallt worth three points? A Prot Warrior tends to go with a pretty fast weapon leading to rather low weapon damage range, which in turn leads to very little gain from Deep Wounds. Putting two points in Imp Shield Block just seems better and the last one wherever you like, just not Deep Wounds (bad use of debuff slot).

Enraged Assault is completely bugged at the moment. I went out to test it with Bloodrage and Berserker Rage and tried using Enraged Assault - it worked. I was sort of happy considering that even I could use it as Prot spec without speccing Enrage... until I decided to just use it without Bloodrage and Berserker Rage up: It still works. So yeah, Enraged Assault is totally bugged. Pity.

Justified Killing is Stalwart Protector. The patch didn't reset my talents and I had Stalwart Protector specced. Now I have Justified Killing flagged as 2/2 even though I am only 13 points in Arms. The 3/6 Rage gain is also what I had in mind as new numbers for Stalwart Protector. In any case, this talent is ok but it's too deep in Arms for Prot Warriors to get without making compromises with all the new goodies (which are yet to come, so don't expect you won't have to make sacrifices in the Prot tree to get this talent) and it doesn't proc on Dodge which it really really should.

Unending fury 5 rage reduction will give you about same rage reduction in the long run as simply picking imp zerker rage (2 points) + 1 more point in intensify rage (1 point), and using bloodrage/zerker rage on cooldown. And STILl you will be left with 2 extra point - 1 to put in precision (another huge rage boost - its around 2 MH/2OH hits over the fight, easily adding up to over 100 rage over typical fight). So in fact your build will produce LESS rage then mine. Also 1/1 AM vs 1 % to your total damage... I dont think 1 rage every 3 sec will matter that much. Remember - you will have enough rage to use instants - thats pretty much a given on AVERAGE. And 1 rage per 3 sec is not enough to smooth out serious rage starvation caused by repetitive misses.

2/2 WW is fine , although cycles will be fine anyway - there is no reason for them to not be. However I agree that 8 second cycle might be better with 2x2h and just prioritizing WW over BT - ending up with a WW-BT-WW-BT cycle with BT used every 8 seconds.

However - if enraged assault cant be used out of Bloodrage/Bersker rage anymore though, then basically you get less buttons to press then now which is somewhat disappointing. You just get BT/WW in a cycle (so 18 sec sounds ok), + BT slams every now and then , and heroics when you are really high on rage. So... nothing really changes. Its a pity, because effective incorporation of Enraged Assault into your dps, seemed like a really nice challenge to warriors.

You have to remember that they're trying to consolidate raid buffs. The purpose isn't to make Druids and Warriors compete for DPS spots, but to ensure that one class doesn't have a buff that the other classes can't provide. I think it's a beneficial change overall. More group synergy for warriors!

I am _overjoyed_ by the arms changes. I was so worried they were going to remove PVE viability for Arms warriors, as I'm one of the apparently few people who really enjoy the slam weaving mechanic. I'm really starting to wonder, however, how Arms is going to deal with threat issues. Not only are we lacking all of the threat reduction talents that come from Fury, but we now seem to be losing the benefits of Berserker Stance as well.

This seems to be the PVE Arms build that jumps out at me immediately as the Arms PVE build. Our rotation remains largely the same. Feels good to be able to fill out Two Hand Spec finally.

I don't see Arms DPS warriors using Enraged Assault often. Standard rotation will be White->Slam->MS->White->Slam->Overpower(should be available, else Enraged Assault).

Overall, very, very happy.

One question. Will the Enrage from Wrecking Crew and Death Wish stack? Even if they don't, the 5% bonus is worth it, but I was wondering.

Those are all good change ideas, although some of them are off, the global idea behind the new talents is to have so much RNG that it works out really well when added up.

But i have some criticism to make (although i feel kinda bad to criticize...this IS a good review):

- If they want us to abuse Enraged Assault so much, they should lower its CD to 6 seconds or so. 10 seconds is too much to gain the full extent of the RNG depending on it.
- Unending Fury should lower the rage cost by 10 to make it as powerful as it should be. It would also make its procs more useful.
- Stance Penalties are still there, i see they want Arms players to be in BStance for OP and Rend, but you're basically losing 3% crit to use them. Zerk stance still has the unjustified 10% increased damage taken and prot still suffers from 10% less damage done.
- Free Rampage and self-refreshing AoE buff is really good, but 5% crit? why not AP? This questions its utility if you have a feral in your raid, a point better spent elsewhere maybe?

Aside from that, im really happy about the changes, looks really fun to play.

Is there any reason for us to be in the melee group anymore?

- Unleashed Rage is raid-wide
- Strength of Earth and Windfury are raid-wide
- Rampage is raid-wide (so I assume LotP will be?)
- Battle and Commanding Shouts are raid-wide

Party-only benefits that we can use:

- Ferocious Inspiration
- Leatherworking drums

There has to be more buffs in both groups that I'm not considering, please mention any you can think of. From my list so far, it's definitely leading to just being able to toss us into just about any group at all; we just need to stand with the rest of the melee buffs at the back-side of whatever we're killing.

I didn't. That removes a small bit of my worry, but most of it is still there. And yeah, considering Overpower and Slam do exactly the same amount of damage, you're right.

How much is current ap co-ef for T-clap.
Could it be viable in arms warrior rotation?

It was 10% of ap + 200damage/cost 20 rage. Talented +100%/16rage. Cd went up +50% if damage went same amount it deal 30 of %ap + 600damage / 16rage. Not bad.

Cruelty doesn't affect Shield Slams, not sure about Revenge. Works only for melee weapons.

I'd suspect the Thunderclap co-efficient is 25% of AP as with Concussion Blow and various other moves which have gained an AP contribution.

Liar or anyone else in Beta please test!

Proof? I was under the impression that Cruelty applied an aura of +5% crit to everything you do - I'm fairly certain that it's reflected on your character sheet under your crit %, which is presumeably what shield slam uses?

Don't take the tooltip definition too seriously - even things like 1h weapon spec affect shield slam and other damage.

I don't agree that two points in WW is effective use of your talents. Without Unending Fury your cycle is bound to look very much like it does now. So long as you're maintaining it properly the second point in WW only serves to make it come off CD during the GCD. That point would be better spent in either Heroic Leap or Furious Attacks (depending on the nature of raids).

But you are spot on about Unending Fury, the rage cost reduction alone is not enough to make it desirable and the Bloodthirst refresh seems dubious and unwieldy. At best you reduce the CD by half, one third of the time you use Enraged Assault, which is at most 4 times a minute. 1/2 of a Bloodthirst every minute isn't entirely insignificant, but it feels like small potatoes given the effort required to pull it off correctly.

Mages get a glyph that removes any DoTs on a target when its polymorphed, so you don't have to worry about spreading deep wounds around.

This would be precisely the build that I would go with. Completely PvE DPS minded and uses Unending Fury. I personally favor the rage reduction for when our slow titans weapons have an inevitable miss streak.

Although Shha's build looks great also if the math shows Unending Fury to be less than worth it.

Does anyone else feel that fury over shadows arms for pvp? All the advantages that arms currently has over fury for pvp are being given to fury in one form or another. Currently, the biggest advantages that arms has is MS, imp intercept, and second wind.

Looking at the MS debuff, you could easily take a warrior with dual daggers in a 5v5 and have him hit as many targets as possible, allowing for a new strat in the arenas. Even without that, the miss penalty isn't as big as you might think. As a human warrior, 2 swords/maces + 3% hit talent + weapon mastery negates 5.25% of non hits. Add the usual hit cap that most warriors go for and the MS debuff falling off is less of a worry. It's even better in the sense that 51 arms cannot get you weapon mastery, so MS can fall off easily in an arms build, especially with more disarms flying around in the game. On top of that, a fury warrior can easily go 2h/fast offhand to help ensure the debuff stays up. It wouldn't be that big of a dps loss since only WW gets bonus damage from a slow weapon and furious attacks will always superceed that. Even disarmed for 5 seconds won't effect FA with punch/offhand still working.

The loss of imp intercept in a pvp fury build is compensated by heroic leap, where an arms warrior gets mobility 4 times a minute, fury will get 3, so it looks like a loss to fury. Except that HL gets 50% weapon damage to make up for it.

The second wind rage/health regen is in the fury tree in the form of the new BT and titans grip/flurry. It seems as if fury rage gen will be superior. Even without dual wield spec, off hand damage and flurry will be an increased rage generated compared to endless rage and second wind. While SW depends on you being CC'd and is a HoT, BT works all the time, even when disarmed.

Fury also has better fear breaks with intensify rage, which 51 arms cannot get, allowing for zerker rage to be used every 20 seconds instead of 30 like normal. Plus the death wish and blood rage thrown in for good measure.

Rage management with unending fury combined with tactical mastery means you can use any ability while changing stances. This gives even greater pvp utility to fury.

The whole tree has great synergy with itself as well as being less depending on stance dancing that a 51 point arms build. Going from berserker stance to fear break and intercept to battle stance then to overpower and rend, rage management seems more difficult as arms. Even even the burst in arms seems less. Enraged assault with it's 10 sec cooldown and 15 rage cost makes wrecking crew talent rather dangerous. Death wish is a controlled ability that can be used in conjuction with EA, helping to negate any potential burst against you. WC will be up again after your next melee hit making it easier for your warrior to get burst down.

I really hope arms gets buffed to the level of fury for pvp.

It was about time that Fury got buffed to the level of Arms. For 4 years Fury/dual wielding was NEVER a viable PvP spec for a Warrior! Now maybe Arms should get a little buff too, but Fury is perfectly balanced and if their goal is to make BOTH viable for PvP(and maybe PvE with some further tweaking), I'm totally with them.

The buffs Fury has received for PvP are very obvious, but Arms has received a number of buffs that are as good or potentially better.

Taste for Blood, for example, states that it "Allows the use of Overpower for 5 seconds". Combined with Unrelenting Assault and the Overpower Glyph, the wording implies an Arms Warrior could have 5 seconds of 1-1.5s gcds of Overpower (don't forget the +50% crit chance). That kind of burst, easily obtainable and even maintainable by rending multiple targets, is *cough* overpowered.

Also, Fury builds wanting TM will have to sacrifice damage from 2H Spec, while Arms doesn't have need for more than 8 points in anything outside of Arms (for a PvP spec).

The two look like they'll soon be roughly equivalent in PvP power, if very different in how they play.