WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 48

Gink · 08/22/08, 1:37 PM

The 'This effect can only occur once every 6 seconds' text on the Sword Spec tool-tip seems to have been removed.
Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Edit: This build looks fun (for PvP) http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12250000000000

Smellson · 08/22/08, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mild Confusion

Fury also has better fear breaks with intensify rage, which 51 arms cannot get, allowing for zerker rage to be used every 20 seconds instead of 30 like normal. Plus the death wish...

Deathwish no longer grants fear immunity in WotLK.

Liar · 08/22/08, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Smellson

Deathwish no longer grants fear immunity in WotLK.

Which is exactly why the damage taken penalty has to go (same for our 5 min Recklessness). The extra damage taken was balanced around that fact after all and if they remove the remove fear-immunity part, then I see absolutely no reason why it should stay (plus, it's dispellable now).

Moreover, if you spec Wrecking Crew you will run around with a 15% Enrage to begin with since you are bound to crit once every 12 secs anyway. That's assuming it doesn't stack with DW. Also, anyone else think that this makes Enrage in the Fury tree really look pathetic? You can ignore a Warrior in PvP now so you don't Enrage him, but with Wrecking Crew he will Enrage just from meleeing you. Add Endless Rage to that and you will get a nice PvP build with Arms where, even if you go out of your way to ignore the Warrior, he will mess you up.

@Gink: The Sword Spec cooldown only shows on Rank 5 for some reason. Also, my avatar>yours.

@Borodin: I might test TC later, but at the moment I just can't stomach the insanely long loading/login times from people trying to test their new toys.

Darian_TruBlade · 08/22/08, 2:17 PM

Interesting thought, do Wrecking Crew and Enrage stack?

If they do it might be incentive for Arms to go 20 into Fury for PvP, if only for the huge deterrent Blood Craze + Second Wind and Enrage + Wrecking Crew would represent.

It would, however, require sacrificing a few neat toys from Arms. Here's my hack at a build.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Nezralix · 08/22/08, 2:24 PM

I see an item here with block value and strength: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...tstrath_03.jpg

Maybe we'll see more of these.

Charsi · 08/22/08, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Interesting thought, do Wrecking Crew and Enrage stack?

If they do it might be incentive for Arms to go 20 into Fury for PvP, if only for the huge deterrent Blood Craze + Second Wind and Enrage + Wrecking Crew would represent.

Is it plausible to put a single point into Enrage and use it as a buffer so that Wrecking Crew is harder to tranq off, and as free fuel for Enraged Assault?

Borodin · 08/22/08, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

I see an item here with block value and strength: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...tstrath_03.jpg

Maybe we'll see more of these.

Ah excellent

Darian_TruBlade · 08/22/08, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by Charsi

Is it plausible to put a single point into Enrage and use it as a buffer so that Wrecking Crew is harder to tranq off, and as free fuel for Enraged Assault?

Theoretically, if the buffs overlap (even if they don't stack) you could do that. But Wrecking Crew is so easy to maintain that it seems somewhat pointless. So long as you're in range to attack something you'll be critting and refreshing the buff. If you aren't, there's little point in removing the buff. Not only that, but using Enrage as a shield against Tranq is so situational (IF you're fighting a Hunter AND they use Tranq on you AND you're been attacked and procced Enrage AND Enrage is eaten over Wrecking Crew) that it doesn't seem worthwhile to go that deep in Fury for it.

It's going to come down to whether Enrage and Wrecking Crew stack their damage buffs, not dispel protection.

Machinator · 08/22/08, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

Moreover, if you spec Wrecking Crew you will run around with a 15% Enrage to begin with since you are bound to crit once every 12 secs anyway. That's assuming it doesn't stack with DW.

I was thinking fury would be the next cookie cutter for pvp until I started thinking about this. Arms lost +20% dmg from Death Wish but gains +15% almost all the time. Plus its also an enrage for Enraged Assault if I read it right. Combined with the new burst of MS/Overpower spam and all the pvp toys like Intercept, second wind, ect. I think arms will still be the general pvp tree in arena. The real drawback I see is staying in battle for overpower limits intercepts and fear breaks. Even then Im not sure Heroic Leap is a replacement for Imp Intercept. Does bladestorm break any CC or just make you immune?

For PVE fury, the reduced rage of cleave on Unending Fury is curious. I though maybe we would be using that instead of HS but even talented its less damage for more rage.

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Combined with Unrelenting Assault and the Overpower Glyph, the wording implies an Arms Warrior could have 5 seconds of 1-1.5s gcds of Overpower (don't forget the +50% crit chance).

What overpower glyph is this? I havent seen anything about warrior glyphs.

Also I saw "New talent - Bull rush (Tier 9) - Increases the duration of the Stun effect of your Charge and Intercept abilities by 0.4/0.7/1 seconds." on mmo-champion(and places that look like they copied from them), but I dont see it in game, is that a typo?

Sabethaya · 08/22/08, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Is Deep Wounds reallt worth three points? A Prot Warrior tends to go with a pretty fast weapon leading to rather low weapon damage range, which in turn leads to very little gain from Deep Wounds. Putting two points in Imp Shield Block just seems better and the last one wherever you like, just not Deep Wounds (bad use of debuff slot).

From my math, if you have above about 7% crit, then a point in Deep Wounds does more damage than a point in Cruelty. [Assuming your Deep Wounds don't overlap on their 6 sec DoT.]

Assume 15% crit:
Add 16% Weapon damage on crits:
(0.15 * (2 + 0.16)) + ((1 - 0.15) * 1) = 0.324 + 0.85 = 1.174
Add 1% crit:
(0.16 * 2) + ((1 - 0.16) * 1) = 0.32 + 0.84 = 1.16

Alaron · 08/22/08, 4:07 PM

I'm a little curious why they cut Blood Frenzy down to 2%. Granted that 4% all physical damage stacking was good. On the other hand, so is the new 5% crit to melee that fury gets (or to all physical for the druid version). In fact, now that they are raidwide, the later is definately better. While it is true that trauma is a bit of a buff as well, the percentage of total melee damage that is bleed damage is pretty insignificant, making it more a self-buff than a huge synergy buff.

The only thing that I can come up with is that Blood Frenzy may remain a one of a kind talent, making arms not absolutely necessary because of the debuff like it used to be since it is only 2%, but still an attractive option when you combine the unique debuff with better personal dps.

Gellor · 08/22/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Merple

You have to remember that they're trying to consolidate raid buffs. The purpose isn't to make Druids and Warriors compete for DPS spots, but to ensure that one class doesn't have a buff that the other classes can't provide. I think it's a beneficial change overall. More group synergy for warriors!

I am _overjoyed_ by the arms changes. I was so worried they were going to remove PVE viability for Arms warriors, as I'm one of the apparently few people who really enjoy the slam weaving mechanic. I'm really starting to wonder, however, how Arms is going to deal with threat issues. Not only are we lacking all of the threat reduction talents that come from Fury, but we now seem to be losing the benefits of Berserker Stance as well.

This seems to be the PVE Arms build that jumps out at me immediately as the Arms PVE build. Our rotation remains largely the same. Feels good to be able to fill out Two Hand Spec finally.

I don't see Arms DPS warriors using Enraged Assault often. Standard rotation will be White->Slam->MS->White->Slam->Overpower(should be available, else Enraged Assault).

Overall, very, very happy.

One question. Will the Enrage from Wrecking Crew and Death Wish stack? Even if they don't, the 5% bonus is worth it, but I was wondering.

OP should have large amounts of uptime now for arms warriors. Weaving that that into the rotation as much as possible seems advantageous to me, no swing timer reset, 5 rage per use and +50% crit rate seems to me to make OP vastly superior to Imp Slam (Still assuming it resets the swing timer), with the added benefit of a much higher percentage chance of keeping wreckign crew up, enabling you to enarged assaults on every CD.

Another benefit for arms warriors would seem to be that they wouldn't want to stack any expertise, as a dodge would just light up OP, which itself cannot be dodged or parried, allowing for maybe slightly different dps itemisation from fury warriors??

Shha · 08/22/08, 4:18 PM

I don't agree that two points in WW is effective use of your talents. Without Unending Fury your cycle is bound to look very much like it does now. So long as you're maintaining it properly the second point in WW only serves to make it come off CD during the GCD. That point would be better spent in either Heroic Leap or Furious Attacks (depending on the nature of raids).

2 points in imp WW actually allow you for a more efficient rotation, but a bit different. yes you have to wait for gcd once (basically you cant fit 2 BT betwee 2 WW with 2 points there). So you lose 1 sec on both BT and WW but close up with a 4 BT 3 WW rotation over 25 sec. To illustrate it with numbers

0.0 - WW
1.5 - BT
7.5 - BT
9.0 - WW (there is the 1 sec loss on WW timer)
13.5 - BT
17.0 - WW
19.5 - BT
25.0 - WW (new rotation start)
26.5 - BT (1 sec loss on BT timer)

So instead of 3xBT/2xWW over 18 seconds like with 1 point in imp WW, you go with 4xBT/3xWW over 25 seconds. Right now its about even - the rotation gives you 1% more instants (assuming WW is about even to BT, which it is - check my post in I believe future of dps warrior thread), but at cost of 1 actually important point - Id say 1% more instants (which together maybe contribute to 25% of my damage counting the execute phase), is less then 1% hit.

It changes however with wotlk. The point is pretty much "free", the way i see it. Also WW becomes MUCH more powerful with 2x2h. Like I said math shows WW with average sunwell ap and slow/slow setup to be about equal to BT - a bit better with low buffs, slightly more with all buffs+ ap procs. Lets see about 2x2h WW

WW damage = [weapon damage + AP/14*3.4]*1.625 = 1.625 weapon damage + 0.395* AP. The scaling is ALMOST as good as BT. If we talk about 500 average damage 2handers (which is awfully low - aployon has that much - I'd expect lvl 80 epics to easily surpass it) , then BT gets even to WW about 15000ap. Since we can assume weapon damage will be growing about on par with AP and save more or less current ratio WW should end being about 25% more powerful then BT.

With such numbers in mind normal rotation is 3xBT +2x(1.25xBT) = 5.5 "BT equivalent", and 8 sec WW gives you 4xBT +3.75BT = 7.75 "BT equivalent" 5.5/18 = 0.305 "BT equivalent/sec" 7.75/25= 0.31. Still the difference isnt much, but its almost twice as much in terms of added damage, and like i said the point "comes free" almost.

If you prefer absolute numbers - over 7.5 min fight normal rotation will give you 75 BT and 50 WW, the 8 sec WW will change it into 72 BT and 54 WW. Nothing special, but meh, its a possibility.

Shha · 08/22/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gellor

Another benefit for arms warriors would seem to be that they wouldn't want to stack any expertise, as a dodge would just light up OP, which itself cannot be dodged or parried, allowing for maybe slightly different dps itemisation from fury warriors??

Thats a very interesting question, Im not even sure if with a 2h you would want to get dodged. Sure OP sounds nice - but assuming axe spec and all the buffs you get in wotlk, having 50% normal crit rate isnt too far fetched. So you get to choose - a 50% critting possibly same damage as op (it hits harder with slow weapon, so it kinda compensates for impale) vs 100% critting OP. More damage from OP for sure - lets say 200/150 = 33% more, but it COSTS 5 rage, instead of generating like 40... Thats worse efficiency then our rage dumps - so dodges will still reduce your dps, although of course you need to count that the item budget from expertise will be used on other dps stats.

Mild Confusion · 08/22/08, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Smellson

Deathwish no longer grants fear immunity in WotLK.

I was referring to how IR works with DW, not how DW no longer breaks fear, sorry for that.

My gripe with arms isn't so much it's potential damage, it's with how much excessive stance dancing you will have to do. If you want to be effective, I don't see how you can NOT take tactical mastery. Staying in battle stance too long and you increase the chance of eating a fear/gouge/repentance. I don't see how rage gen in arms is anywhere near fury's rage gen. That alone is a huge weakness. Don't forget, there is not a single ability that fury cannot use when stance dancing if they get 3/3 tactical mastery, this includes bloodthirst and shield slam which is a dispell.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fury buffs, but I think that arms is not complete in it's current form.

Gellor · 08/22/08, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Alaron

I'm a little curious why they cut Blood Frenzy down to 2%. Granted that 4% all physical damage stacking was good. On the other hand, so is the new 5% crit to melee that fury gets (or to all physical for the druid version). In fact, now that they are raidwide, the later is definately better. While it is true that trauma is a bit of a buff as well, the percentage of total melee damage that is bleed damage is pretty insignificant, making it more a self-buff than a huge synergy buff.

The only thing that I can come up with is that Blood Frenzy may remain a one of a kind talent, making arms not absolutely necessary like it used to be since it is only 2%, but still an attractive option.

I think with the changes to rend and DW, you may be undervaluing the amount of damage warrior bleeds bring to the table now. Also with wrecking crew i'm sure arms dps is going to be a lot closer to fury in wotlk than it was in tbc.

Gellor · 08/22/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

Also WW becomes MUCH more powerful with 2x2h.

Working under the assumption that enraged assault works like a single target WW as the description indicates, and using your math, wouldn't that also make EA superior to BT from a dps stand point as well? EA also benefits massively from the 2 points in imp zerker rage, enables you to light up EA, and guarantees the rage to use it as well.

madpeon · 08/22/08, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

The buffs Fury has received for PvP are very obvious, but Arms has received a number of buffs that are as good or potentially better.

Taste for Blood, for example, states that it "Allows the use of Overpower for 5 seconds". Combined with Unrelenting Assault and the Overpower Glyph, the wording implies an Arms Warrior could have 5 seconds of 1-1.5s gcds of Overpower (don't forget the +50% crit chance). That kind of burst, easily obtainable and even maintainable by rending multiple targets, is *cough* overpowered.

Also, Fury builds wanting TM will have to sacrifice damage from 2H Spec, while Arms doesn't have need for more than 8 points in anything outside of Arms (for a PvP spec).

The two look like they'll soon be roughly equivalent in PvP power, if very different in how they play.

Can anyone confirm Taste for Blood is working? Spent about 10 minutes Rending mobs without a proc. I was hoping to test whether or not you could get off 3 Overpowers (with Unrelenting Assault) when it proc'ed, or if it was simply a single use you had to use within 5 seconds.

Edit: Also would be nice to test the multiple rend theory listed above. 3 rends ticking at once would be alot of uptime on Taste for Blood.

Ambika · 08/22/08, 4:56 PM

It appears that they are trying to get us to not try to mash the shield block button everytime is up and save it for an "OH CRAP!" move.

I created this build:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

I don't feel that Imp Revenge, Imp Taunt, Imp Disarm and -6% magic reduction really will pay off while leveling considering I could get an additional 10% crit damage by specing into arms and keeping imp thunderclap.

Although this might regquire more +AGI to gain crit instead of relying heavily on STR/STA primarily. Have you guys checked out that craftable shield that's BOE from blacksmith recipe? Pure tanking joy.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...shieldwall.jpg

Nezralix · 08/22/08, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ambika

It appears that they are trying to get us to not try to mash the shield block button everytime is up and save it for an "OH CRAP!" move.

I created this build:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

I don't feel that Imp Revenge, Imp Taunt, Imp Disarm and -6% magic reduction really will pay off while leveling considering I could get an additional 10% crit damage by specing into arms and keeping imp thunderclap.

Although this might regquire more +AGI to gain crit instead of relying heavily on STR/STA primarily. Have you guys checked out that craftable shield that's BOE from blacksmith recipe? Pure tanking joy.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...shieldwall.jpg

I doubt there's any point speculating about Protection builds right now.

Ambika · 08/22/08, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

I doubt there's any point speculating about Protection builds right now.

This is true as I know they are in a state of flux and retuning. It's still worth displaying anything that peaks my interest in showing the wonderful sparklies that one can get fairly easily in the Xpac.

Alaron · 08/22/08, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Gellor

I think with the changes to rend and DW, you may be undervaluing the amount of damage warrior bleeds bring to the table now. Also with wrecking crew i'm sure arms dps is going to be a lot closer to fury in wotlk than it was in tbc.

Sure. I totally get that, and I do agree. My point is that trauma is more of a self-buff than a raid buff. Bleeds are a fairly small overall contribution for rogues, and you don't take a whole lot of ferals.

I'm not complaining about the reduction. In fact, back in the thread I was strongly advocating arms being able to stand on its own damage rather than getting its raid spot from some uber buff. I was mostly commenting on the fact that it seems like they are heading towards the point that buffs that can originate from one of several specs seem to be stronger than buffs that can only come from one spec... which I actually like quite a bit.

Gellor · 08/22/08, 5:37 PM

Alaron,

I think the nerf to BF was to take it out of the realm of a must have debuff. With the raid utility rampage now brings, either arms or fury will now be a welcomed addition, which is a big change

Gruntle · 08/22/08, 6:42 PM

To Shha: Thanks for pointing out the problems with Unending Fury, the talent does indeed seem a bit weak currently.

The main reason why I think that cycles will be problematic is that we will have to weave in 2 proc based abilities (Bloodsurge slams and Enraged assault). But it's hard to say if it can be done easily or not. Having 2/2 imp WW just makes it possible to use your hardest hitting attack more often, the 4/3 cycle posted by Shha is likely the best one in case a cycle really can be used.

As to choosing AM over 1 point in 2h spec, I think it's quite likely that we will have severe problems with rage generation (at least starting out in WoTLK raiding), every little extra point of rage will help.

Darian_TruBlade · 08/22/08, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by Machinator

What overpower glyph is this? I havent seen anything about warrior glyphs.

There is none. I just had a massive brain failure.

Originally Posted by Gruntle

The main reason why I think that cycles will be problematic is that we will have to weave in 2 proc based abilities (Bloodsurge slams and Enraged assault). But it's hard to say if it can be done easily or not. Having 2/2 imp WW just makes it possible to use your hardest hitting attack more often, the 4/3 cycle posted by Shha is likely the best one in case a cycle really can be used.

As to choosing AM over 1 point in 2h spec, I think it's quite likely that we will have severe problems with rage generation (at least starting out in WoTLK raiding), every little extra point of rage will help.

Only Bloodsurge is proc-based, but it's highly predictable. For a Fury Warrior, all the Enrages they have available in a raid setting are usable abilities (Berserker Rage, Bloodrage, Death With). Weaving both in won't be difficult.