I wanted to ask, is Bloodbath available in Defensive stance? Because if it is, aoe tanking a max of 5 mobs would be easy: simply Bloodbath and Shockwave every cooldown, and Tclap every so often.
If it isn't, then prot warriors only have Shockwave available for aoe tanking, and things might get a bit rough.
Bloodbath doesn't have a cooldown. It's been a while since I checked, but IIRC it can be used in defensive stance. Tclap's been usable in defensive stance for some time. IIRC, Bloodbath is usable in defensive stance but I'm not 100% certain. Bloodletting is +75% bleed damage per rank IIRC, not the +25% per rank that Yarr! lists. Regardless, it's another line in the epic love letter Blizzard's written to us in WOTLK.
Thanks for that, Muggins. I was wondering how to work in impale as well. The build you linked to however requires lvl 81. Where would you want to nuke the point? Lose another 1 from Cruelty?
Along those same lines, really -- maybe foolishly -- pushing the envelope would something like this be inline for a high-agro style? Sweeping strikes and shockwave? Glory be! Think of the possibilities.
My mistake, i was pulling points out of prot talents and feeding them into cruelty expecting it to stop me when i hit 80. I would pull another point from cruelty as you suggested.
Regarding the bloodbath discussion, the wording for Bloodletting is that it increases the bleed damage from those abilities, if we can use it in defensive stance i'd see us spamming the ability for the upfront instant damage when aoe tanking, which by the wording you might assume will not be affected by the talent. At most you might get 1 or 2 ticks when thunderclap and shockwave are both ready to be used.
Of course this is pure speculation, i can only hope that the talent affects all the damage done by bloodbath, it can be used in defensive stance with appropriate modifiers and every aoe pack mob we come across will be enraged permanantly, right?
I'm wondering what people think about 1/5 Sword Spec + 5/5 Titan's Grip vs. 5/5 SS + 1/5 TG. 4% chance to proc extra swing vs. 8% increased attack speed.
I also wonder if threat ceilings will be low enough to really warrant filling out Furious Resolve, as right now I can't see putting more than 1 point in it for any build.
One thing that I think everyone here is overlooking is the "new" direction that WotLK is taking in regards to raids, with each raid now being a 10-man and a 25-man. 10 for people to experience the story and 25 for people to experience bigger challenges and receive better loot.
As such a lot of things are being homogenized, warriors are getting more AoE, DKs seem to have some nice AoE, druids weren't doin' all that bad with swip and paladins we just don't know yet. With the removal of crushing blows it really removes a lot of the specialization that happens in game right now.
It also seems like we're going to be given a challenge in numbers. Think more Magister's Terrace or Mt Hyjal rather than Gruul's or Mechanar (sorry my raiding experience is rather limited at the moment), where we'll be dealing with a lot of adds in trash mobs rather than smaller groups of more powerful enemies. In which case having more AoE threat (which is currently where warriors are most lacking) is going to be imperative.
The other thing to keep in mind was that they wanted to give tanks more dps. This goes along with the current rumors of raid-wide buffs from Bshouts and totems, all of which work in favor of a more intimate raid experience where you can retain viability without having an optimal group and where your optimal group is going to be much more fine-tuned to make sure you get as many layered buffs as possible raid-wide.
The question of whether MS / BT / Shield Slam will share cooldowns is completely up in the air. What happens on a private server is irrelevant; that reflects what data is in the client now, not what things will be like on live. Those skills have never been possible to stack on live, so Blizzard would have no reason to even look at or care about their shared cooldowns - and it being like that "since forever" is further proof of this. The way the game was designed years ago doesn't necessarily reflect the way that it will shake out in WotLK.
No, it's not. They share cooldowns. That information is stored client-side, not server-side, and the abilities have had a shared cooldown on the client side for a very long time.
This looks like one of the better possible DW fury builds for WOTLK. I haven't looked into the math for titan's grip, and if it isn't that great, this is the way to go. You get 5%crit from axe spec(+plus crit damage) so u have more bloodsurges and also u get more sudden death procs to use. You'll have Bloodthrist, Instant Slam, Sudden Death Execute, and Whirlwind to use as instants (prioritizing the most important to least skills you should use, I don't know how bloodbath is going to work so I didn't put that in there). You'll rarly have to heroic strike with all the GCD's you'd be using, that means less bonus threat, threat isn't a issuse though.
Titan's grip build, axe spec is the better choice because more crit = more instant slams, which shouldn't reset ur swing timer. You could maybe drop the 1 point in Furious resolve and put it in Precision.
It's being ignored for the most part but I really like Heroic Leap. Between that and Intercept DPS warriors can move around the battlefield quicker than any other melee. In today's fights of "stand in Brutallus' butt" it isn't too useful but in a more mobile fight abilities like that make warriors a lot of fun to play and hopefully we'll see more of that in the future. The only reason I leveled my warrior up instead of another character was because Charge was so much damn fun.
Our mobility IS very much fun. Hopefully it will be a bigger boost in raids down the road. I was hoping against hope we'd get an ability like Kargath uses in Shattered Halls. Bladestorm is close but not quite.
Anyway, the bleeds look extremely nice, I know its a CC break, but there are many times where you don't need CC and just want enough threat to keep mobs off the healers. Between TC, Shockwave and Bloodbath, tanking 5 mans shouldn't be half as frustrating.
Haven't seen anybody talking about how awesome Trauma seems to be for raid damage. An additional Mangle's worth of bleed damage on a target? That's quite a bit for Rupture, Rip, Lacerate, etc. It significantly magnifies the damage on some skills that aren't particularly popular, like Deep Wounds and Rend (after the new changes).
In fact, let's do some quick math on the new Rend. Assume a base value of 300 (which is probably lower than it'll actually be). Assuming an average weapon damage of, say, 1200 with raid buffs (with current gear), then we're looking at 660 base damage over 21 seconds, or 31.4 DPS. Multiplied by Mangle and Trauma and Bloodletting (potentially a multiplier of 1.3*1.3*1.75 = 2.96), and you're up to 92.9 DPS. Four times more than that when the target is enraged: 371 DPS, or 1114 damage per tick. Not including any additional multipliers you might have, like Blood Frenzy or Ferocious Inspiration or whatever else.
No, it's not. They share cooldowns. That information is stored client-side, not server-side, and the abilities have had a shared cooldown on the client side for a very long time.
Read my post again. It's totally irrelevant whether they share cooldowns now, because Blizzard would have absolutely no reason to care about such a thing. Until both abilities can be trained at the same time on live, it's totally up in the air. The way that the abilities work right now reflects the way they were designed long, long ago, not Blizzard's plan going forward.
It would seem logical for them to continue to share cooldowns though (in particular MS and BT, since SS doesn't really matter) to prevent 31/31+9 from being hands down far and away the best DPS spec (for both PvE and PvP? I don't know warrior math well enough to judge how powerful an additional instant would be, but I assume it's highly significant at least once you have the rage to fuel the new rotation).
Ergo, regardless of what the current status is, unless Blizzard wants to promote an arms/fury build that takes the 51-point talent of neither, I would expect that there will be a shared cooldown.
Read my post again. It's totally irrelevant whether they share cooldowns now, because Blizzard would have absolutely no reason to care about such a thing. Until both abilities can be trained at the same time on live, it's totally up in the air. The way that the abilities work right now reflects the way they were designed long, long ago, not Blizzard's plan going forward.
This is akin to saying that just because right now the Yankees play baseball they might play basketball next season. If the abilities already share cooldowns and there isn't a way to use more than one of them short of having a boatload more talent points than you can use it's a pretty safe bet that this is intentional going forward. The new talents are supposed to entice you to take them, not to cross-spec 33 points in two trees.
The new talents are supposed to entice you to take them, not to cross-spec 33 points in two trees.
This has always been my biggest problem with BF. It forces us in to 33 points in one tree, and then afterwords doesn't offer talents to balance with the low hanging fruit in the fury tree. DPS Warriors and Healing Priests are in the same boat on this. We have two talent trees that do the same thing, but then we get randomly placed talents in each tree that force a certain hybrid spec. At this point it feels like screaming at a wall, but IMO bliz really needs to do something about 'Two tree one play style' classes vs 'One tree, one play style' classes. It seems like its a whole design philosophy that's at fault to the muddying up our fury and arms trees.
I would guess some of the problem is that they never want to make it so a fury warrior has a spot in arena pvp over an arms warrior.
Given the current nature of healing and healers, I am sure that fury will never get to that point without seriously imbalancing what they want for PvE ( Of course I haven't experienced titan grip, with huge burst maybe but I doubt it ).
I personally would like to see them revamp the trees. Let's just end this rediculous farce and make MS the 41 point talent since MS is so amazing any other 31, 41, 51 talent will forever be garbage, and swap Blood Frenzy with Weapon Mastery and give us a 31 point talent along the lines of cloak\camoflage, something along those lines.
It seems this would neatly solve what I perceive to be their concerns about overpowered DPS trees along with making fury the token BS, BF, warrior.
With the removal of crushing blows, the shield block changes make sense so that warriors take /some/ damage. From the talent changes, what what blizzard has said about wanting things to be more hybrid-ish, I would not be surprised if these changes are based around a large increase to block value or an increase in block value -> shield slam damage. If you remember early bc, warriors got left out in the rain when people could be taking a druid with almost twice as much HP and dealing more damage, and for a while blizzard has been promising some pvp/farming/pve-that-isnt-taking versatility with prot, with the large increase in SB cooldown and the removal of crushing blows, I can see shield block and/or shield slam giving prot warriors a little bit of teeth.
I would guess some of the problem is that they never want to make it so a fury warrior has a spot in arena pvp over an arms warrior.
Given the current nature of healing and healers, I am sure that fury will never get to that point without seriously imbalancing what they want for PvE ( Of course I haven't experienced titan grip, with huge burst maybe but I doubt it ).
I personally would like to see them revamp the trees. Let's just end this rediculous farce and make MS the 41 point talent since MS is so amazing any other 31, 41, 51 talent will forever be garbage, and swap Blood Frenzy with Weapon Mastery and give us a 31 point talent along the lines of cloak\camoflage, something along those lines.
It seems this would neatly solve what I perceive to be their concerns about overpowered DPS trees along with making fury the token BS, BF, warrior.
I think "neatly" isn't the right word here. The changes you've recommended aren't concrete enough to warrant that adverb.
More importantly, I think they open up a host of other issues. Why would all of the bleeding talents be in Arms, except for BF? How much does moving MS down the tree affect its viability for leveling? These are just the first things that come to mind.
Additionally, with much slower weapons and a clearly PvP oriented 51 pt talent at the top of Fury, it's entirely possible that Blizzard is aiming to have Warriors be more interchangeable in both PvE and PvP. They won't have MS, but with the massive group damage possible via SS, WW, BT alongside Heroic Leap, it might not be an issue (not to mention Aimed Shot and Wound Poison).
Additionally, with much slower weapons and a clearly PvP oriented 51 pt talent at the top of Fury, it's entirely possible that Blizzard is aiming to have Warriors be more interchangeable in both PvE and PvP. They won't have MS, but with the massive group damage possible via SS, WW, BT alongside Heroic Leap, it might not be an issue (not to mention Aimed Shot and Wound Poison).
The problem with this argument is that almost all of that is already present. The only PVP oriented talent Fury warriors would be gaining would be Heroic Leap and that doesn't make up for all the reasons why Fury is awful in PVP even now (no MS, Second Wind, Imp Intercept/Hamstring, or Mace/Sword Spec).
With shield block being able to block 100% damage, wont it make block value on gear redundant now?
It doesn't block 100% of the damage, it increases the amount blocked by 100%. So if you normally block for 1000 on a random block, you'll block for 2000 when you activate Shield Block. So no, BV on gear won't be redundant, quite the opposite.
It doesn't block 100% of the damage, it increases the amount blocked by 100%. So if you normally block for 1000 on a random block, you'll block for 2000 when you activate Shield Block. So no, BV on gear won't be redundant, quite the opposite.
With critical block talent and shield block up, would there then be a 30% chance to block 4000?
It's too bad that Critical Block is a pretty awful talent, IIRC the early math models correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it show some pretty awful practical mitigation?
The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. - Mark Twain
It's too bad that Critical Block is a pretty awful talent, IIRC the early math models correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it show some pretty awful practical mitigation?
I suppose that all depends how you look at it, and what you're getting hit for. In a long term average, it's increasing the amount you block with your shield by 30%. So if you don't care about what you're blocking for now, then you might not care about what you're blocking for with this talent.
07/06/08, 3:36 PM
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