WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 51

Shha · 08/07/08, 1:52 PM

Without the haste penalty from TG, and with Flurry and Windfury, a 3.6 speed weapon goes to 2.4, or a 3.7 speed weapon goes to 2.47 (great for a perfect slam cycle, accounting for latency, where you just spam the attacks each cooldown and dont have to worry about your slam clipping the autoattack.

With the 20% haste penalty, even a 3.4 speed weapon goes to 2.72, requiring adding haste rating to get it down to a good amount.

If it didnt have the speed penalty, or had a smaller one, it would allow us to use a slower weapon (bigger hits, slams, whirlwinds), or to stack less haste. Its pretty easy to simply avoid haste items and just get str/crit/ArP instead. If the penalty were reduced a few % I think it would turn TG into a good talent (from a talent where its probably worse than just getting a weapon spec).

Well of course removing/reducing the penalty from TG would be abuff to dps. Thats basically what you said. I only stated, that of all the penalties blizzard could do, this one is probably least painful for pve, while also nerfing TG in pvp which does seem like their idea (good or bad). Remember - haste is the best stat point for point for arms now, and TG in future - as long as you dont go below cap/start clipping rotation. Haste for arms warrior works on ALL the damage he does - more white swings_> more slams-> tighter use of instant CD (if your weapon speed is 3.0 then slam cycle is 3.5 sec at least, and you can use MS/BT only every 7 seconds instead of 6).

The Slam rotation should be the same as used now for 2H arms. But the slam in the TG rotation isnt as beneficial as the one in current 2H arms, because you still only benefit the amount of a MH swing, but you reset the swing of both of your weapons. So its easier to hurt your dps if you dont time it well.

Completely the opposite. Benefits of "new slam".

- Timings are made extremely easy - get your weapon close to 2.5 speed and follow a gcd limited sequence. With synced weapons especially its really not a big problem the reduced OH dps.

- Timings right now with arms are loose. Reason why a lot of people want slower weapons then 2.5 hasted, is because you need to give a really huge leeway on slam anyway. If you do slams correctly they START casting around 0.3-0.5 sec after white swing - making effective slam cast 0.8-1.0 sec. Why? Because if you dont (and some people dont wait), then you are clipping every swordspec/wf that could occur. Given how those 2 effects add 25% to white damage, its a huge effect, and waiting those 0.3-0.5 sec is sort of mandatory. With WF becoming a haste effect, and Sword Spec gone from slam builds, you are actually making the rotations much much tighter and cleaner.

Its also hard to find time for all your cooldowns, you get one free cooldown every 12 seconds, but in addition to battle shout and possibly demo shout, you also have to do rampage, and you could get some good dps out of bloodbath, since there are some good bleed damage multipliers out there.

Im really not sold on stance switching and using bleeds. Sure its a good amount of damage. So was the use of imp overpower - and that one was proven multiple times to not really fit into a dps cycle. Ever since BWL times, warriors know to NOT use an instant weapon damage/always crit move - why would people really want to use bleeds in such case? Well see how it turns out, but for me rend/BB might be a nice pvp talents, but not really something to fit pve dps cycle.

I think that the slam rotation might only do slightly more dps than simply using your abilities as soon as they are on CD, and getting Bloodsurge and doing some instant slams (which you cant fit into the slam rotation).

Possibly. No slam rotation now, works because of sword spec, hamstring dealing damage, and the mentioned problems with slam (either you cut 25% of your white dps in form of procs, or you cast slams a lot longer). The way I see it , you gain 20% more white damage by not using slam, 20% more WW damage, but you lose some flurry uptime, and lose around 70-90% of slam dps. Given how slam should account for around 60-70% of your white damage, it feels like still a considerable loss.

Crimsonstorm · 08/07/08, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

Completely the opposite. Benefits of "new slam".

- Timings are made extremely easy - get your weapon close to 2.5 speed and follow a gcd limited sequence. With synced weapons especially its really not a big problem the reduced OH dps.

- Timings right now with arms are loose. Reason why a lot of people want slower weapons then 2.5 hasted, is because you need to give a really huge leeway on slam anyway. If you do slams correctly they START casting around 0.3-0.5 sec after white swing - making effective slam cast 0.8-1.0 sec. Why? Because if you dont (and some people dont wait), then you are clipping every swordspec/wf that could occur. Given how those 2 effects add 25% to white damage, its a huge effect, and waiting those 0.3-0.5 sec is sort of mandatory. With WF becoming a haste effect, and Sword Spec gone from slam builds, you are actually making the rotations much much tighter and cleaner.

Yeah its certainly easier to time the slams with the 5/5 flurry getting your swing time down, not worrying about windfury or sword spec.

It is a dps increase to do the slams. I think its asmaller %age increase versus no slams than before, but its definitely easier.

On bloodbath, I dont see any stance requirement on it, so I figured it could be part of the rotation. If you have to stance dance for it then it would be bad, definitely.

Malpractices · 08/07/08, 3:57 PM

I would think that a simple fix to TG would be making it so you can use a 2 hander in your main hand only. Then get rid of the - haste penalty. This would solve the scaling problems and would be 30% dps upgrade to you main hand only(plus whatever stat bonus you are getting that is above a 1 hander). You are then getting an ok upgrade to dps with both white and yellow damage. Rage would be more consistant because of the 2.6 or faster off hand.

Beefyman · 08/08/08, 2:56 AM

Can anyone in beta confirm if the new hamstring can kill totems? If it cant then then it really hurts our ability to fight shaman or just prevent flag captures in AB.

Gruntle · 08/08/08, 3:17 AM

How would an ability causing exactly 0 damage be able to kill a totem? Of course Hamstring won't kill totems. Not that I'm in the beta but common sense should be enough to realize that

If I'm wrong you get to mock me for eternity.

Prinsesa · 08/08/08, 6:19 AM

Originally Posted by AmPriS

People have been talking about reasons why people will still not spec deep into the arms tree but no one has brought up that some of the bleed effects are going to do 4x the damage to enraged targets. How does that play into it?

Hunter - Bestial Wrath/The Beast Within
Rogue - Hunger for Blood
Druid - Berserk, Enrage
Warrior - Berserker Rage, Bloodrage, Enrage

The Death Knight's Hysteria might be worth testing as well.

EDIT: Added Enrage

Tyvi · 08/08/08, 6:30 AM

You can also add Enrage on the Warrior side of the list which also happens to be the only Enrage mechanic I know of that is not triggered by the player. This is going to have some serious consequences in Arenas where you can just Rend up the enemy Warrior and hit on him until he procs Enrage for quad damage.

AmPriS · 08/08/08, 7:16 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

You can also add Enrage on the Warrior side of the list which also happens to be the only Enrage mechanic I know of that is not triggered by the player. This is going to have some serious consequences in Arenas where you can just Rend up the enemy Warrior and hit on him until he procs Enrage for quad damage.

Okay well I was testing a 37 arms 31 fury build tonight. I guess this is supposed to be the raid spec soon?
Anyways

The highest rend tick was 411(not shown). Back to what the above poster said about in arena, with that 4 time modifier to enrage , that would be some 1600 damage a tick, but just guessing at lvl 80 with better gear and it will probably do 2200(atleast) a tick to an enraged target.
Also another interesting thing, the 76 druids rip was doing 1100 a tick when trauma was active.

Crimsonstorm · 08/08/08, 4:00 PM

Has anyone seen any info regarding when the next beta build will be released? Since thats likely to have our new warrior changes in it.

mistersix · 08/08/08, 4:16 PM

Why do you think that? Only comments I've seen from blue is that they're working on us. Nothing specific enough to suggest we're in the next push. Did I miss a blue tracker somewhere?

Crimsonstorm · 08/08/08, 4:22 PM

No nothing specific, just an expectation that we'd see stuff based on that theyve said theyre working on warriors.

Kartan · 08/08/08, 6:59 PM

mmo-champion has the new talent calculator. BF now arms 41 point talent. GG Blizzard, GG indeed.

Zegai · 08/08/08, 7:07 PM

Shield Wall is now the same ability (essentially) as Divine Protection. Only thing is, it is still free and doesn't incur a attack speed penalty.

They also increased shield spec to 2 rage again, but it still is a majorly lackluster talent.

Extremely disapointing if that's all. The change to BF is... well, unbeliavable to put it bluntly =p

EDIT:
New Recklessness...
Your next 0 special ability attacks have an additional 100% to critically hit but all damage taken is increased by 20%. Lasts 12 sec.
Instant, 5 min cooldown

Expected.

Mode · 08/08/08, 7:32 PM

They flipped the positions of impale and deep wounds. Deep wounds now does 48% of weapon damage over 6 seconds (was 60 over 12 seconds).

Edit: This is a neutral change. Pure DPS warriors don't need to take a somewhat fruity ability if they don't want to and it's a DPS upgrade. It's also another nail in the coffin of the BF warrior. In PVP, it'll be trickier to keep up deep wounds to prevent rogues from running off and vanishing. Now if only they'd unlink enrage and flurry.

Zaroua · 08/08/08, 7:33 PM

Deep wounds is 48% weapon damage over 6 seconds, moved up a tier but still has Impale pre-req.
Unrelenting Assault swapped places with Blood Frenzy (wtf?)
Trauma no longer has a pre-req
Improved Shield Wall reduces cooldown by 30/60 seconds
Shield Wall, Recklessness and Retaliation all have a 5 minute cooldown - not sure if linked but should be usable in arenas