Steveharris

As well it should be? Did you mean lower tier fury talents are eclipsing upper tier arms talents? I'd think upper tier talents in one tree would generally be better than lower tier talents in another tree. That's why they place them higher. Unless you're referring to the scrolling down in the talent pane to view more powerful talents as "going lower", in which case disregard, I suck cocks, etc.

One thing that I think people are overlooking/undervaluing is wrecking crew. With axe spec it's going to be up nearly all the time, but a lot warriors just look at flurry and go "No way, 25% haste is more white damage and white is yellow and rah de blah glah gluk" and totally overlook the fact that 15% enrage affects both yellow and white damage. Not only do you get 25% more rage for white hits, those white hits will do 15% more damage (napkin math says that's 35% more white rage!) and your yellow hits will also do 15% more damage. Not to mention you can make much more liberal use of enraged assault without using a critical Zerker Rage CD. If the issue then is getting feared in Battle Stance, keep in mind Bladestorm will serve as a fear break if you absolutely must break the fear (make a /canelaura macro for those times you need to intercept/intervene right after).

A build like
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000
includes all the lower tier fury goodies, and gets full arms as well as TM for instant spell reflect.

 

PSGarak

Because of this ambiguity, I use the terms "deep" and "shallow." I think he is talking about shallow fury vs deep arms, since he's making a list of what an arms warrior could get in fury by dropping deep-arms points.

You are right that 15% damage is comparable to 25% white damage. And it's certainly a better enrage for PvE situations than Enrage (all PvE, not just raiding). Surprisingly, using the enrage as fast as you can on Enraged Assualt may actually be the preferable play, rather than riding with the 15% buff. It would take 6-2/3 weapon strikes enraged to add up to 100% weapon damage (more if EA benefits from the enrage it eats). 12 seconds of enrage is unlikely to last 7 weapon-damage attacks in an Arms build without flurry, and you're likely to refresh the buff within 7 swings anyways. I'm having trouble juggling the complete opportunity costs in my head, with GCDs and rage costs, especially because we don't have a good idea of rage-income at level 80, but it's at least theoretically feasible that a 15% damage buff is not as good as a simple weapon-damage attack.
Also, wrecking crew scales in a silly fashion with additional talent points, since it ups both the proc chance and proc effect. If you use it for the buff rather than the EAs, the last talent point is 9 times better than the first.

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Rustik

I don't think it matters when you use the EA, because as you said, with decent enough gear, you'll proc it all the time anyway. On the first proc, just hit EA, and by the time the cooldown is up, you'll probably have landed another crit and had a few seconds of extra damage before you use it again.

 

Nezralix

WoW Forums -> Furious Attacks Overpowered ->

I doubt anyone didn't see this coming. I wouldn't be surprised to see this be a slower-stacking debuff (say 5 stacks required for 50%), with maybe an Unbridled Wrath proc system to make it not reward using fast weapons. In other words, a lot more like Wound Poison.

 

Mild Confusion

I dislike the idea of using bladestorm for just a CC break, especially when it comes to fear. In live, we can break fear in berserker stance with berserker rage and break fear in any stance with deathwish. Using bladestorm and then canceling it just to regain your utility seems like a step backwards to me, especially for a 51 point talent. And deep arms still has nothing to counter disarm. Rogues will have disarms at all times like warriors and 51 point marks hunters will have it as well. Wrecking crews biggest weakness is it's strength, it enrages us, leaving us open to taking 400% damage with only 2 ways to remove it, EA and canceling the aura.

 

Gellor

So has anyone given any thoughts on what the best level 70 builds will be pre WotLK, once the new talents are patched?

Seeing as you only have 61 talent points, I can see maybe putting 3 points in Imp HS then just dumping the rest in Fury. Not sure its worthwhile getting Incite in protection for 15% crit on you rage dump. Also will Unenning rage be worth getting seeing as you need to be 75 to use enraged assault, but maybe worthwile purely for the reduced raged costs on BT and WW,

Also weapon choices are fairly broad as well, Torch of the Damned, Soul Cleaver, Cataclysm's Edge, Season 3/4 Weapons and Apolyon (Although thats available to an exceedingly small percentage of warriors). I'd also throw a shout out for the Badge 2 hander, as it is pretty bad ass stat wise and would be a pretty awesome OH.

If were going to talk weapons then we may as well talk about enchants. I just cant see executioner/mongoose being the best choices. If your wielding dual Cat's edge, you should easily be approaching a static 2k Armour Pen, so the choices becomes either +35 agi or Savagery (This is only one scenario and Executioner could still be valuable depending on weapon choice).

I currently have a 37.78% crit rate unbuffed in live, if things stayed as they are talentwise. Once the new talents are released if I wielded 2 x Blade of the Harbingers, with rampage up my crit chance without any other buffs goes to almost 48% (55 crit rating x2 + 5% from rampage), if i put +35 agi on both weapons it goes to almost 50%!

With rampage your going to see a lot of fury warrior's running around with well over 40% crit, and the best thing is even with the loss of 250ap from the rampage change, you're going to get a lot of that back from the itemisation of using 2 x 2h.

 

Darian_TruBlade

The three points in Imp HS would really be a waste. Even without the -20% innate haste you attack too slowly with TG specs for HS to be a viable option in unless you're in an infinite rage situation.

Despite the fact that Unending Fury currently is a subpar option for level 80 specs, being unable to reach Deep Wounds/Impale and 2H spec makes dumping points there a waste of time (unless you're planning to PvP). It seems likely that everything will just be dumped in Fury.

 

Liar

Why would not being able to HS as TG? I can do it with 2.7/2.6 sec 1h weps, TG with Flurry and the new WF will make the 2 handers actually faster than this.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Emeraude

Going to second this, the talent may change again before live, but it's perfectly fine to work in heroic strike at the moment with Titan's Grip.

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Darian_TruBlade

I'm probably working from a bad set of assumptions given my progression level/general lack of reliable Enhancement Shaman/Feral Druids. Would you foresee the use of HS as being prohibitive for a T4-Early T5 level gearset in a TG spec?

 

JamesVZ

No? There's no gear level where you won't cap out rage. Capping out rage = damage lost. You may have to use HS less if you aren't generating as much rage, but you'll never simply NOT use it.

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In regards to Icecrown Radiance:

 

Ziggurat

Spell Reflect is only 15 rage in 3.0, so you can revise this a little bit.

 

Darian_TruBlade

I don't think I worded my question well. I wasn't trying to imply that HS would never be used, but was asking if at certain gear levels TG builds might find HS a rare enough occurrence that taking talents to improve it wouldn't be particularly fruitful. I was not in any way attempting to suggest that Warriors should cap out rage.

 

Reliknom

I've been thinking about the power of whirlwind with TG and couldn't decide for myself: would taking 2/2 imp WW be worth it if WW hits harder than BT and usurps the 1st place in the priority list? Or is aligning the GCDs more important in spite of this?

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Polishedhead

In a WotLK talents @ level 70 PvE DPS situation; is anyone else thinking that Deep Fury may not be the way to go? Missing out on Deep Wounds, assuming they change the mechanic before wotlk, is going to be a huge DPS loss.

Having said that. You also won't be able to take Wrecking Crew and Commanding Presence..

HMm, after having a second look at Unending Fury, im gonna bet this will be dominant at level 70 wotlk talents:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

With the last 2 points spent wherever you want. (heroic leap, improved whirlwind, improved execute, improved cleave etc etc) Low cost BT/WWs with huge rage generation from white attacks = lots of 55+% crit heroic strikes with 2hs!

 

Calgar

This is identical to the build i was going to try out in 3.0 as well. I put the 2 remains points in imp berzerker rage, which on reflection isn't as good as imp whirlwind, and maybe Heroic Leap for kicks.

I have to say I'm extremely interested at how it's going to fare in a raid though. The changed/loss of deep wounds and impale are going to make things interesting, not to mention the rage generation changes with paired 2 handers and so forth.

At any rate, I'm almost certain it's going to be a huge DPS increase over 33/28 BF bot that i used to run. Haven't been this eager for a patch in a REALLY long time!

 

Shha

Honestly that build is bad. Let me explain it.

a) Unending Fury is just a horrible talent on its own. We can discuss if it will be good enough at 80 with the enraged assault skill - but at 70 we dont get it yet - so all the talent does is reduce cost of BT/WW by 5 rage. With a typical TG, it allows around 1.3 Heroic strike extra per minute. (assuming heroic+ lost rage is around 60 on average). 1.3 Heroic Strike is with the most generous approach 1800 damage. Thats 30 dps, for 5 talents at the end of the tree.

b) You arent really going to use Heroic Strike much - but I guess having Incite there might be a good choice - nothing is really better.

c) Imp zerker rage+ 3 points in unbridled wrath, provides a LOT more rage. With a slow 2h, 3/5 unbridled gives you 1 rage per swing - with WF/flurry speeding up your weapons , you easily look at 1.3 rage/sec from unbridled + 1 rage per sec from imp zerker rage. Thats a lot more then 1.5 rage/sec from Unending Fury. Additional points can go to imp ww/execute.


So Overall Dual wield TG build will go for incite, and the "small talents" rather then Unending Fury.

2.0->3.0 Changes:

Wield 2h - around 10% more white damage, around 50% more WW damage - some instant slams.

Now other possibilities.

BF build. Im still not sure how Trauma stacks, and it could possibly be a reason to use it as well. But even without it.

56-5-0 build is probably best with basically everything important from arms. You get Wrecking Crew which definitely outperforms Flurry by far. I dont think relying on Overpower is any good without enraged assault - at 80 you will use EA whenever OP doesnt light up, at 70 having reliable WW is better then having random Overpower lightups.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft with remaining points you can add to unbridled wrath/op talents.

Total Change 2.0->3.0

15% more white damage
15% more Slam damage
25% more MS damage
possibly better bleeds
5% more haste
New Deep Wounds
loss of

2% from BF
WF attacks.

I think 15% more white damage + 5% haste + sharpening stone on your 2h > WF on its own. So overall you increase your Slam damage by 15% (Slam usually contributes to 25% of the damage around so 3.75% overall increase) , MS damage by 25% (20% overall damage, so 5% increase) , you get around 250 dps from deep wounds. Seems like a very good trade for losing 2% BF damage - for increasing your own damage by ~20% or 500 dps. Seems to me Arms build can match 2.0 dual wield dps now, while still providing a raid buff (even though BF is nerfed). Addition of Endless Rage, more then counters WF change for rage, and makes the cycle very manageable and easy to sustain.

SD build - something i really consider for 80 too. With all the changes to warriors this build seemed to be forgotten since TG got a nice boost. However people forget that main issue with SD was the lack of aggro talents which are gone anyway - and lack of points - something alleviated with the unlinking of flurry-enrage.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Changes 2.0->3.0

Loss of ~700 AP due to lack of rampage/imp zerker stance - 50 dps on weapons or in other words ~10% white damage.
Gain of Axe Spec - adding around 7% damage assuming your crit was around 40% beforehand.
Loss of 2% hit.
Flurry uptime much higher due to executes.
High Execute usage - no Heroic strikes at all.
5% more damage from 2 min Deathwish.

Overall the normal rotation damage seems to be ~2% higher then 2.0 17/44. On top of that you get new Deep Wounds, and ability to use execute as a rage dump.

 

Natural

There are valid reasons to support either arms or fury in 3.0. However, after my recent experiences on beta, I'm pretty sure that every warrior who doesn't plan on tanking should be Fury spec for leveling in WOTLK.

Instance grinding is phenomenal with whirlwind, BT, and cleave spam. Victory rush is up almost constantly while spamming the AE attacks. Last night I cleared through the Nexus in about 20 minutes last night and recount estimated 2200 DPS. The group was a bit overpowered with an enhance and feral. LOTP is currently stacking with rampage and I saw my character simultaneously break 5000 AP and 50% crit. Anyone with T6 DPS gear who finds a good group will be absolutely slaughtering these dungeons early on.

On the flip side, BT provides enough healing while soloing that there is very little (or zero) downtime while fighting even level mobs. Heroic leap is actually useful for the speed boost while leveling. It's quite fun to Leap->Intercept and reach a target 50 yards away in a couple seconds.

 

Cranium

Currently for the 3.0 content patch I am looking at a build like this:

2/51/8

The reasons are like this... First off to get TG you will never get enough into arms to be useful. So despite any debate about 20 arms vs 8 prot @ level 80, @ level 70 the 8 is prot does more for me. In fury I'm trying to keep it similar to the 17/44 build, but I am going more in route with cleave then HS.

Cleave might be more rage than HS, however, rage for me has been less of an issue since getting solid gear. With the inscriptions coming out with the same patch I am hoping for a glyph of cleave to increase the number of targets to 3. That with the 15% more crit will make this a money maker on trash. With the removal of BoS, the reduced threat from not using HS will be helpful as well on bosses.

Getting the 33% quicker refresh on recklessness and deathwish doesn't seem to be an amazing talent to me, but getting it helps me get TG without having to get the worst talent in the tree, Unending Fury. And really I can't see getting the content patch and not going TG. The two badge 2h axes show up as a 300 dps increase on my spreedsheet, and I'm not finding anything near as powerful of an upgrade from arms.

The 2 points in parry are just filler cause I can't think of anywhere else they would be really helpful. I don't execute in my rotation since my dps is higher. I was thinking about heroic leap and piercing howl though just to try the build out in arena.

 

Liar

I second this. I decided to respec from Prot and give Fury another whirl after the TG changes and what can I say, it has absolutely zero downtime. Even elites are no problem for me (though admittedly I am 2 levels higher than them but I doubt it matters) with a 2h/Shield combo. Damage stays pretty high, you have great armor reduction and another damaging instant with Shield Slam. The self heal of BT and unlinked SS goes a long way into helping us solo elites like other classes so I hope this stays.

Last but not least: Heroic Leap. I have mixed feelings about it. It's nice to use it move around faster but it's pretty stupid if you want to actually pinpoint leap to a mob because most of the time you leap over him which really makes the stun component worthless. I think I fell from more cliffs than I managed to stun mobs with it just by overshooting, heh. Also, mobs you jump over will hit you. Intercept has neither of these limitations. The games does a range check and if you hit Intercept, the mob will be stunned immediately while you charge at it. It may be bad for PvP with server lag (the stun runs out before you reach them) but for PvE it's definitely a boon. Leap should get a similar treatment.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Hisstok

I believe that I remember a blue saying that leap had its "aoe target click wherever you want to land" component removed temporarily while they sorted out pathing issues (and maybe balance issues with warriors jumping to unreachable areas) and it will be making a return eventually.

 

Emeraude

Blizzard made a giant post listing off raid Debuffs/Buffs.

WoW Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

I thought the Warrior abilities might be relevant to this this thread.

Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage
Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might
Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma
Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap
Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks
Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout
Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering if Blizzard was going to leave Blood Frenzy as a unique Warrior-only buff, it turns out they won't and another class will be able to apply it.

Expose Armor and Sunder armor will apparently be the same level(Though I wonder if this means talented expose = sunder armor?), though unless they make Warriors get the devastate bonus off expose I don't see how there can ever be harmony. When a Warrior isn't around I imagine it'll be easier to keep it up for a Hunter with a pet.

I still think Rampage is completely inferior to LotP, in terms of range, and uptime. Most raids like to take their cuddly bear tanks into raids now, bears are commonly found and are extremely attractive, especially since in WotLK they can Main Tank most raids, I'd hate to be forced to spec Blood Frenzy again simply because rampage is inferior to the utility Ferals provide, pending on if the 2nd class to get a Blood Frenzy like debuff is actually active in most raids.

Battle & Might don't stack anymore, it seems, though I could be reading it wrong, so you wouldn't have to battle shout over and over, and it would make Booming Voice even more useless then it is now, as well as Commanding Pressence useless as well. Same deal for Commanding Shout and Bloodpact.

I noticed Furious Attacks is still under the "Healing Debuff" part, so it's still alive, for now.

Thunder clap talented still provides the biggest attack speed decrease of the 4 mentioned I THINK, while Imp demo & Improved Curse of Weakness are equal while Demo Roar trails it.

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gia

My money is on Hemorrhage providing the BF debuff.

 

Exiliad

As far as -AP debuffs, from this thread I read demo roar and demo shout to be different by a whopping 2 attack power, and both classes have the ability to plop 5 talent points to increase the reduced attack power by upto 40%.

 

Fallacy

I believe that depends on how they interact with their corresponding talents. I'm not too up to date on paladin specs, but would many besides Ret include Imp. BoM? The values of Commanding Presence and Imp. BoM are also very different (25% and 50%, respectively), so their base values would be as well. Currently, even without Commanding Presence, BS still provides more AP, but that can be adjusted anyway. This is withstanding the range, length, and GCD issues that warriors have, although I feel it's not too important.

EDIT: I should say, there's also the benefit of having Rampage, or Blood Frenzy and Trauma over a paladin, besides that other classes also (or will) bring them. That's the point of redundancy, though.