WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 55

Gellor · 08/29/08, 12:54 PM

Strength from an itemisation budget point of view is quite expensive. They will have to do a polish pass on our tanking gear to make it viable with the mechanic changes that will come along with the patch, judging from the experience of warriors in the beta. I'm just curious how much mitigation will be lost due to the addition of strength to current tanking gear, eating into the item budget. And where will we make it up, if it is lacking? This isn't even taking into consideration the debuff/buff consolidation, heroism changes etc.

TussleMuscle · 08/29/08, 1:04 PM

First, the raid changes are good. They'll suck in some ways, it is unlikely that everything will be properly balanced and in place at the start, and hell that may last the entire expansion, but it's better like this than otherwise.

Second, a thought about Battle Stance. The complaint many arms warriors (OG Fury myself) seem to have is the lack of utility to be found in our base stance, fear breaks being foremost in that concern. Am I correct there? My inquiry would be, given some balancing, would adding a "15-25% reduced harmful or CC effect durations" buff to the stance provide enough of a benefit to warrant forgoing Berserker Rage, Recklessness, et al? Perhaps even a stacking reduction, starting at 10 and stacking 3% per x5, for each harmful effect on the warrior? So passive 10% reduction ramping up to a maximum 25%, or 25% ramping to 40%, or whatever - depending on the degree of focus fire? Would there be a sweet spot that would make it worthwhile while not eclipsing the usefulness of the other stances?

In terms of logic, the Battle Stance is technically the most balanced and prepared of the three, and thus in theory would be least susceptible to CC and the like. I always thought it unfortunate that Battle Stance was considered to have an advantage over our other two because it did not have a disadvantage, but really the functions of the game that actually matter make it obsolete through min-maxing. Possibly this is a situation where a glyph could provide this added utility and also provide a detriment to balance it, while not affecting the base stance.

Thoughts?

Nezralix · 08/29/08, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Gellor

Strength from an itemisation budget point of view is quite expensive.

What is this supposed to mean?

PSGarak · 08/29/08, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Gellor

I'm just curious how much mitigation will be lost due to the addition of strength to current tanking gear, eating into the item budget. And where will we make it up, if it is lacking?

It's going to be made up for by raid encounters being balanced around it. Caster cloth currently has lost STM on it which does nothing for our damage, and the raid encounters are balanced with this gear in mind, not with the idea in mind of a theoretical damage ideal. Your avoidance will be sufficient for the content, and you'll be needing the STR for the agro. It'll work out so long as there isn't stupid min-max stam & avoidance-only gear that has to be balanced around, which it sounds like there won't be.

Gellor · 08/29/08, 3:32 PM

My point on the post is that i'm assuming T6 will be reitemised with strength with the encumbent tanking mechanic changes the patch will bring. Having to spend points on strength means that budget points previously allocated on mitigation will be lost to allow for strength to be added, unless blizzard throws itemisation budget out the window.

Level (Item - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

I should clarify I'm talking about exisiting TBC raids with the new talents/tanking mechanics and raid buff stacking and assumed reitemsation of existing plate tanking gear.

Fellwraith · 08/29/08, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Gellor

My point on the post is that i'm assuming T6 will be reitemised with strength with the encumbent tanking mechanic changes the patch will bring. Having to spend points on strength means that budget points previously allocated on mitigation will be lost to allow for strength to be added, unless blizzard throws itemisation budget out the window.

I sure as hell hope they don't go back and re-itemize that gear. There's no good reason to do it. When you start leveling again you can re-gem most of those pieces as they have sockets keyed to "red" or "yellow" gems.

Str isn't better on T6 tanking gear for a single-target fight. Block value is better for current content (assuming you're using heroic strike on most attacks). See posts 1988-1990. Block value gets you more tps for the itemvalue (and when you factor in the added TPR efficiency from added block value on items, the extra rage may even be less of an issue).

The only reason you want str is to generate additional rage and increase your multi-target threat. The reason warriors are shifting to str sets on beta is that they aren't taking as much damage (Sunwell sets have in excess of 19k armor) and they're tanking 5 mans where they need to deal with multiple mobs. Increasing the threat per rage from tclap and cleave is very important when you have 3-4 mobs to tank and you aren't getting hit very hard. It doesn't matter at all when you're tanking a single target in a raid.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, you don't lose any threat generation capability from today to 3.0. All the new mechanics do is ADD TO your existing threat generation. If you're able to generate enough threat in today's raids, then it's fine in 3.0.

acx · 08/29/08, 3:57 PM

Does anyone have the new innate threat modifiers on the new versions of skills and how they scale with AP?

Executor_5 · 08/29/08, 4:30 PM

Has anyone done the math on Titan's Grip and Dual Wield Specialization vs. Two-Handed Weapon Specialization vs. Improved Berserker Stance? I just want to know which will provide the best DPS for the talent points.

PSGarak · 08/29/08, 5:27 PM

It depends on the relative amount of stats you have, and the relative amount of damage of various specials in your rotation. If your AP accounts for over half your damage than improved zerk stance beats 2h spec. If your DPS from AP exceeds the white DPS of your weapon this is trivially true; even if it's not, I expect BT to swing things in favor of AP. Dual Wield Spec gives a 1/12 increase to everything using your offhand, which is auto-attack and whirlwind. That beats 2H spec if those things are greater than 60% of your DPS, and it beats improved zerk stance almost never. If 2H spec beats iBS, then I think DWS is likely to beat both since under such a low-AP scenario you're likely to see a large amount of damage from weapon-attacks that DWS benefits.

So iBS > 2H > DWS spec, by napkin math, for reasonably high amounts of AP, unless autoattack is worth more than I thought. If enraged assault benefits from DWS and auto + WW + EA is more than 60% of your DPS, then it becomes iBS > DWS > 2H.

landsoul · 08/29/08, 5:56 PM

You can max all 3 at 80....

Healranktwo · 08/29/08, 6:03 PM

So, just to clarify...they aren't changing any of the innate threat on any existing abilities right? I think that's a problem in itself since everyone is scaling decently well.

Having tanked my first level 80 dungeon today, I have to say that tanking on a warrior feels a lot harder than at 70. My avoidance stats are complete crap, yet I can't get rage for the life of me. Besides the devastate bug, it doesn't feel like I can mantain good threat at all. I'm actually considering dropping all my SW gear to get all that str quest rewards out there to see how it goes. I can't wait for the changes Blizzard says is coming.

Shha · 08/29/08, 6:09 PM

Tanking 5 men instances was always hard on a warrior, and it feels easier now. Are you comparing it to early TBC tanking or current one? Because when TBC was released it sure was way harder then now

.

As for the quesiton about 2h spec-dw spec-imp zerker... Im not sure how you can not pick all 3. Given that Unending Fury is crap atm, there isnt really even place to put points in - im stuck at 48 fury and have hard time picking something from all the useless pve talents to go deeper

.

Liar · 08/29/08, 6:26 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

Tanking 5 men instances was always hard on a warrior, and it feels easier now. Are you comparing it to early TBC tanking or current one? Because when TBC was released it sure was way harder then now

.

Why would he compare it to pre-TBC? Seriously now, Blizzard's intention was to make tanking more enjoyable and easier (if we agree with it or not) compared to TBC tanking now. Not some arbitrary time in the past where TC was not accessible in Def stance or what have you.

@Healranktwo: You need to wear DPS gear pretty much if you intend to keep your SW epics equipped. There is no way around that unless you wear the intended Str/Sta/Def quest gear they try to force on us. I know it's not ideal and I pretty much despise the thought of us having to rely on DPS gear to tank with, but the Prot Warrior pass hasn't been done yet so here is hoping they do a good a job with it.

nfw · 08/29/08, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

I've said it once and I'll say it again, you don't lose any threat generation capability from today to 3.0. All the new mechanics do is ADD TO your existing threat generation. If you're able to generate enough threat in today's raids, then it's fine in 3.0.

Doesn't matter how much threat a post 3.0 warrior can generate compare to now, what matters is how much you can generate compared to post 3.0 DPS.

Darkrenown · 08/29/08, 9:39 PM

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

I
I've said it once and I'll say it again, you don't lose any threat generation capability from today to 3.0. All the new mechanics do is ADD TO your existing threat generation. If you're able to generate enough threat in today's raids, then it's fine in 3.0.

Well you lose a bit since defiance will vanish so you'll have a 1.45 threat modifier instead of 1.495. DPS classes also gain lots of nice new DPS talents and lose Salvation. You might lose a bit from now being able to pop SB constantly to light up Revenge too. I don't see STR scaling making up for this, I've got 208 STR unbuffed in my aggro gear.

You also lose some multi-mob aggro since TC has a higher CD, but Incite, melee/spell hit merging plus lower spell resist rate and STR scaling should make up for that.

Now maybe the extra DPS gained from all the raidwide buffs might make up for the lost threat, but it doesn't look like it will to me, so I really hope there's some nice aggro talents still to be revealed.

Executor_5 · 08/29/08, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

As for the quesiton about 2h spec-dw spec-imp zerker... Im not sure how you can not pick all 3. Given that Unending Fury is crap atm, there isnt really even place to put points in - im stuck at 48 fury and have hard time picking something from all the useless pve talents to go deeper

.

That's because I'm trying to design a decent TG PvP spec, which means putting points into Furious Attacks, 1-2 in Tactical Mastery, Heroic Leap, Weapon Mastery, etc. I'm also assuming that even the nerfed Enrage will be worth it for PvP.

Sabethaya · 08/29/08, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Darkrenown

You also lose some multi-mob aggro since TC has a higher CD

TC already has a 6 second CD in live.

Grillkohle · 08/29/08, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sabethaya

TC already has a 6 second CD in live.

Not really. Thunder Clap - Spell - World of Warcraft

In other news, apparently Mace Specialization for Warriors and Rogues will be changed to armor penetration.

Originally Posted by http://blue.mmo-champion.com/7/9336456598-rogue-update.html

Mace Specialization: This will grant armor penetration when using a mace. (The warrior talent will as well.)

Borodin · 08/29/08, 11:10 PM

Here's the changes to the Protection talents as I see them on the MMO-Champion Talent tree, some abilities have changed Tier but that's not something I've mentioned:

Improved Revenge: only 2 points now for 20% more damage and 50% Stun chance. Revenge itself now has a minor AP scaling component - see below.

Toughness: also reduces duration of Slowing effects by 10% per point. A PvP buff if nothing else.

Improved Shield Wall: each point also increases the DR by 5% (but the Skill itself is back to 50% DR base).

Improved Defensive Stance: down to 2 points when you Block/Parry or Dodge you enrage dealing 10% more melee damage for 12 seconds (i.e. a near-permenant 10% DPS boost - a big buff I feel)

Sword and Board: proc chance increased to 3% per point so 15% total.

Safeguard down to 2 points for the same effect as before.

Puncture: down to 2 points so only 2 rage saved (nerf).

Vigilance: Taunt only refreshed on next 3 hits - bizzare change and a nerf really.

Critical Block: also increases chance to Crit with Shield Slam by 5/10/15%. Makes this talent worthwhile.

Shockwave: up from 25% to 50% AP damage.

Revenge "fixed", here's the Rank 9 (L80) version:
Instantly counterattack an enemy for [ 9.3% of AP + 652 ] damage and a high amount of threat. Revenge is only usable after the warrior blocks, dodges or parries an attack.
5 Rage, 5 yd range, Instant, 5 sec cooldown

New ability Weapon Throw
Throws your weapon at the enemy causing [ 100% of AP + 1 ] damage (based on attack power). This ability causes high threat.
30 yd range, 0.5 sec cast, 20 sec cooldown
Ranged pull with obvious PvP uses.

Looks to me like a solid round of changes overall though no sign of Expertise or Rage on Parry/Dodge. Presumably these buffs are seen as performing the same function in terms of TPS output.

Anyway apart from the overt additions to talents the amount of points saved is significant allowing me to come up with a proposed Raid MT build of:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Zegai · 08/29/08, 11:21 PM

Improved Whirlwind
Rank 2 7 4 Increases the damage of your Whirlwind ability by 0.02 sec.

Uh... that's.. weird.

Charge in prot as well.. is MMOC's tree correct?

Borodin · 08/29/08, 11:29 PM

The MMOC tree is a Work In Progress - things like Charge being a Prot talent are bugs

Perhaps it's a placeholder for a new talent.

Zegai · 08/29/08, 11:40 PM

Yeah, I figured that. They could just have left it with nothing though :P

About the changes:
Execute got a very nice change (Attempt to finish off a wounded foe, causing [ 20% of AP + 1266 ] damage and converting each extra point of rage into 38 additional damage. Only usable on enemies that have less than 20% health.).

I still think the prot changes aren't really all that, but I like crit block and the enrage one.

Dulak · 08/29/08, 11:42 PM

Revenge does have scaling from AP in the skill list. Sword and Board used to also proc from Shield Slam itself, did it not? So this buff is a net 0, actually, since now it only procs from Devastate. Still seems like a fairly worthless talent for that spot in the tree and 5 points. Safeguard and Vigilance are still poor talents. If these are all the big prot changes I'm not impressed. The Charge in prot tree seems interesting as it is usable in any stance.

Borodin · 08/29/08, 11:57 PM

Redundant post.

Zaroua · 08/30/08, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dulak

Revenge does have scaling from AP in the skill list. Sword and Board used to also proc from Shield Slam itself, did it not? So this buff is a net 0, actually, since now it only procs from Devastate. Still seems like a fairly worthless talent for that spot in the tree and 5 points. Safeguard and Vigilance are still poor talents. If these are all the big prot changes I'm not impressed. The Charge in prot tree seems interesting as it is usable in any stance.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

You're wrong. That link is the previous build's talent trees; the change to Sword and Board is the extra 5% proc chance but the apparent removal of Shield Slam being able to proc it (see below). As far as Safeguard and Vigilance go: Safeguard is a way to increase Protection's mobility and it's a 60% reduction to ALL damage, making it a very worthy talent investment especially for more casual players who don't respec out between raid fights to min-max. And Vigilance is 10% threat reduction for your highest DPS without a threat dump, a huge help on AoE fights and a buff on annoying threat dumping trash and 5 mans.

Saying that a talent is "poor" because you can't find a situation where it'd be useful is inane and doesn't help the discussion.

With that being said, the current calculator on MMO says that 5/5 Sword and Board is both Devastate and Shield Slam but the 4 other ranks are Devastate only - we'll have to wait for the servers to be up to properly test it before jumping to conclusions to see if it's a nerf or not.

As for my "MT" spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000 with 2 points to spare for Demo Shout, Incite, Improved Taunt or Safeguard. Though, again, I wonder how going for Deep Wounds would affect threat over Sword and Board, especially with the new 15% crit to Shield Slam from Critical Block synergyzing very well with Impale, too.