Liar

Charge definitely needs to be usable with Warbringer. Ghostcrawler even gave us the reason: Improved Charge. What use is it for us if we swap to Defensive stance after using it anyway? Now imagine having Improved Charged and it being usable in Defensive stance: that's some massive rage boost right there which will help us minimize aggro losses via unlucky avoidance streak RNG. I like it. Make it usable in Defensive stance and I will totally spec that. And if you want to really make me happy, add a high threat component to it (I suggested it doing a free Shield Slam earlier, I am still for this) and rename it Shield Charge.

I think some asked for less down time, yes. People were envious about how DKs never had to eat or bandage and just could go on and on. Ferals are the same in this regard. I like the fact that we get a heal to reduce our down time (one that scales with health, too!) but I can't say I am too happy that they picked Enraged Assault for this. It was pretty much a second Whirlwind for us and something Prot pretty much would have needed to put into it's rotation instead of just smashing the heck out of WW and Dev while DPSing. Can't have it all I guess and I bet Fury Warriors are doubly pissed about this since BT was already sufficient healing for them.

It is quite shocking to read something like this. It's like us Warriors have come to accept that Dodge equals less threat and the sad part of it is that it's true. I hope we can get this fixed in Wrath so we can look back and laugh at people for saying stuff like this.

The new Vigilance looks better atleast. It's still a pretty boring and simple ability to use so I'd hope they'd give us a proper 31 pointer while moving Vigilance up a tier or something.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Frederic

Is it just me, or did Slam just take a new and frightening turn into the OP zone?

To put this into context, slam currently does Weapon Damage + 170 unnormalized.

At 200 DPS with a 3.6 speed and 2.8k AP a weapon would do the following:

TD = WD + (AP/14 x WS)
TD = 720 + (2800/14 x 3.6)
TD = 720 + 720
TD = 1440 non-crit, no modifiers.

Comparing Slam to Mortal Strike:

Auto-attack damage per second: ~ 351.2
Yellow DPS from Slam: 960
Total: 1311.2 DPS

Auto-attack damage per second: 400
Yellow DPS from MS: 230 (for the purpose of calculation weapon speed is 3.3 for MS due to normalization, DPS is total value divided by 6 due to CD)
Total: 630 DPS

Naturally, haste weighs it more in the favor of MS, but without flurry haste is not going to be innately high for an MS warrior.

EDIT:

And has anyone seen anything in terms of shield spikes? Is it possible that the 100% block chance that Shield Block gives us would scale well with a shield spike in a manner that would make it an effective AoE move (possibly an opener)?

EDIT2:

Noob mistake corrected, forgot to add AP to resultant autoattack DPS.

 

Liar

They can always add a cool down to Slam if that is a problem. Not a big deal, but I like the new concept for sure.

Shield Spikes aren't all that hot really. I use [Petrified Lichen Guard] with Shield Spikes in the MgT room before Vexallus already and while it helps against healing aggro if you have no AoE, it feels like a really stupid thing to do even though I either block or avoid all hits. Make no mistake about it, Paladins hold aggro well via blocking but that alone is not the reason: Consecrate is a big part of it as well and I doubt we'll get anywhere if we try to emulate some sort of ghetto Holy Shield.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Dots

How does it help with avoidance RNG? I don't think Warbringer is supposed to drop the min range of Charge. It would be quite silly to just charge the mob you are already fighting every 15 seconds for some extra rage.

 

Liar

Neither was that my intention. If you can get off one charge per boss pull that's 22 free rage plus Bloodrage plus Misdirect. It obviously does not make up for not getting hit for a long time but it helps to bridge the time until you do - it's definitely nothing to sniff at.

Now imagine fights like Illidan or Bloodboil. In the first case you get to Charge once every new phase for some additional rage and to get to him fast. On BB you can run away 8 yards and Charge to give you another 22 rage at the cost of maybe one - max two - white swings? Now make it cause high aggro and you won't even think twice about lose 1-2 white swings either.

EDIT: Just to be clear: This does not mean I want a 3/6 rage Stalwart Protecter style talent/base ability back. I wouldn't mind having both.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Dra

Enraged Regeneration is just bad the way it is, the general idea is good, but the 3 minute cooldown is just too long for it to contribute anything meaningful to downtime reduction. What I really don't understand is why they replaced Enraged Assault with it.

I feel they could do a lot better with the enrage mechanics. They could for example have 1 offensive (Enraged Assault), 1 regen (Enraged Regeneration) and 1 defensive ability which all consume an enrange and prevent further enraging for some period of time. That way you would have a choice between the passive enrage buff (fear immunity, 10-15% damage, rage generation) or the active ability. With the right set of enrage abilities it could make for a very interesting mechanic.

 

Gruntle

I don't get what the problem is? You calculate the "Slam DPS" by taking the slam damage and divide by 1.5 (which is still not correct by the way, you forgot to add the 170 extra damage). That is only true in a back to back slam calculation, which will prolong your white swing indefinitely and thus be completely unrealistic. A more correct cd for slam would perhaps be the weapon speed (even though the change actually makes it a lot more viable to do more than one slam per swing). Also, you will never have a 1.5 sec cast on slam if you use it for serious pve dps, it needs to be talented.

A bit more interesting would be to compare how a white hit + 2 slam compares to a white hit+slam+ms sequence. Using your numbers:
- White+2*slam (talented)
time: 3.6+2*0.5 = 4.6 sec
damage: 1440+2*(1440+170) = 4660
rage cost: 2*15 = 30
dps: 1013
rage per sec: 6.52
dpr: 155

- White + slam +ms (fully talented MS should hit for 1670)
time: 3.6+0.5 = 4.1
damage: 1440 + (1440+170) + 1670 = 4720
rage cost: 45
dps: 1151
rage per sec: 11.0
dpr: 105

You trade dpr for dps when using MS over slam.

 

Branar

I agree with you, Liar; Warbringer is pretty much a wasted point if we can't use it in defensive stance. That said, I don't really think I want it even if it's usable in defensive stance. 5-mans would definitely turn into an endless "rogue kidney shotted? K, time to get that charge off again". That doesn't strike me as a particularly interesting mechanic, particularly when it will scale so poorly to 10/25mans where presumably mobs won't be stunnable or snareable.

Weapon Toss already looks like the "warriors needed something to give them some snap agro on pulls" ability. In that regard I'm not sure Warbringer is going to fill a useful niche as a tool for engaging bosses or at the start of phases. Of course, it would provide additional threat beyond Weapon Toss, but it just seems a bit redundant for something as deep in the tree as it is.

Obviously Stalwart Protector still missing is troubling. I wonder if their intent is for prot warriors to go 17 deep in arms to pick up Justified Killing if they want passive rage gain from avoidance. If it is, that's going to force a lot of tough decisions and mean that talents like Improved Disarm and Safeguard won't see their way into any 25-man tanking spec, because they simply aren't going to consistently improve your threat or mitigation on the same level as other abilities. Of course, with all the ability-improving modifiers, it wouldn't surprise me if we're already making sure we have 12-13 points free for Impale in arms anyway.

Well, unless Sword and Board continues in its current vein. Then you could free up 5 points there.

 

Zegai

Rather depressing changes all in all.

I liked Enraged Assault for its different mechanic, even if not the most efficient attack in the world.
Enraged Regeneration is extremely lackluster and boring, really. Once every 3 mins I get a heal as strong as a bandage, maybe a bit stronger? That really isn't what I look for when I get my new skills after being capable of facing off with the likes of Archimonde and Illidan :P

The incombat charge should be a tier 1 or 2 talent, not as high as it is.. we didn't get ONE single good talent on upper prot, and that is extremely disappointing.

I don't know, but I really don't like the direction the warrior dev. is taking..

 

Liar

@Dra: I definitely agree with your notion that having 2-3 different skills to pick from while Enraged would add alot of depth to our class. Enraged Assault and Enraged Regeneration should be both in the game since they have different uses.

Why not? It's actually a fun choice you get to do. You can move out to charge or you can opt to do it in live and tell the Rogue not to stun too early and continue as usual. Choices are great, especially when they only cost us 1 talent point.
Also, weapon toss and charge are not exclusive. Weapon toss has a 0.5 sec cast time so start with that, then immediately charge after for a nice threat/rage lead.

And yes, Stalwart Protector has to come back. Either as Tier 1 talent or baked into the class. The expertise bonus is also missing still.


The thing about Enraged Regeneration is that you can use it while moving and that it scales with your health. I think alot of the grief about the talent is because they replaced Enraged Assault with it, instead of giving it to us in addition to Enraged Assault. Imagine doing a fight like Felmyst where you won't get heals in P2 until Skeletons are under control. You could, as a tank, activate berserker rage* then use that ability and help gather mobs via healing aggro. If it does not cause aggro, then you could even do it as DPS Warrior while moving to the safe spot. The talent definitely has some strategic purposes.

*I am not mentioning Imp Defensive stance for a reason because I really think it's a garbage talent and I hope it gets tweaked to not give us an enraged status we may or may not want.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

nfw

Interesting change for slam, especially for pvp if you can time slam right before a white swing hits, so your slam, white (or heroic strike) and MS hits at roughly the same time.

 

KooZ

Warbringer - Yes. Awesome. I play -a lot- of instances next to raiding, purely because I like to play with others and to make some quick cash (rent-a-prot) but this would surely give us some extra benefits.

Since I'm mostly geared on a T6 level it can be hard to maintain aggro, but I can imagine the same will happen in WoTLK as well. Thinking about this on the way back home from work;

I'm tanking 4 mobs. Warlock dots em all, shockwave/TC'ing isn't actually enough to keep aggro on all 4 dotted targets. One moves away to the lock, I know he already does a lot of DPS so vigilance is on him already (30 mins duration) I intervene him, shield slam the target, taunt, battle stance, charge back to the group, thunderclap and into def stance again (using TC in battle stance thanks to a bit extra DPS and to lose the rage for switching back)

I'm really positive about the benefits in regards to movability, theorycrafting about the benefits of boar's speed with some fellow warriors they always told me I was crazy, but I really hope we do get those kind of fights or situations where mobility is an issue. Something we surely will benefit in comparison to Paladins or DK's and make us equal to the mobility of a feral druid (the class that also has more issues with AoE tanking then us)

The enraged assault vs. enraged regen discussion, I'm still biased. I do like an addition option to use in a DPS environment, but having the possibility to keep myself alive using an ability instead of a consumable really makes me think that's a better option than just a plain extra attack

 

frber

Weapon Throw is also something you can do after while Rooted or hit with Frost Nova. Perhaps making snares and people simply running away from you slightly less frustrating? At least if its decent damage (like 2-3k?) even if the cooldown is pretty high.

 

Nezralix

I do really like the idea of it scaling with your health; it's great when having plentiful stamina actually *does* something obvious, other than give you larger a damage buffer. Right now druids have Leader of the Pack, which can yield fairly substantial healing given enough stamina, and paladins are getting spell damage out of their stamina. I certainly think that paladins are getting the better deal out of the two, but both are still getting more tangible returns out of stamina than warriors are.

Which I suppose is particularly unfortunate due to the fact that warriors are the one class out of those three that can't actually heal themselves, and thus could probably use some of this scaling self-healing more than the others could. At a rather long three-minute cooldown, Prot warriors are still potentially stuck in a "thousand tiny cuts" situation where they get gradually get overwhelmed by low incoming damage (the primary problem with warriors attempting to iron-man lower-level content).

Anyway, I think I also agree that this shouldn't have come at the expense of Enraged Assault, but I do think it's a pretty good idea.

 

Branar

While I agree the cost is small, I just don't see it fitting into any kind of min/maxed PvE build no matter how many points it costs. There are ~60+ points in prot you'll want. Cruelty and Improved Thunderclap are still very desirable talents. Impale looks very strong as well since nearly every desirable threat talent in Protection improves your threat by way of yellow damage. If there's no alternative, Justified Killing may be extremely attractive, and that's 17 points deep in arms, leaving only 54 for Protection. There are just way more than 71 talent points that are very good for a tank, so what gets cut? Warbringer in its current state is going to be a good place to start if you're doing 25-man content.

Now, maybe their intent is for there to be some meaningful PvP talent choices in the Prot tree, the same way a PvE Arms build wouldn't include Second Wind. That does make some sense to me, though I still have difficulty wrapping my mind around Prot warrior PvP being competitive at the arena level.

Is that really worth it? You perhaps get back to the group of mobs a second or two faster (and if you're really excited about getting back there quick, intercept is still an option available to you, though I think the better choice is just to run back over).

When you Battle Stance -> Charge in your scenario, you sacrifice whatever rage you had built up before the Intervene, and in return you get...One thunderclap's worth of threat/dps. A thunderclap in battle stance, even.

I think added mobility is awesome. I love that warriors are kings of zooming around the battlefield. But I think you have to be realistic about how much we'd benefit from this. Any fight where we're going to need all the mobility from Intervene, Intercept, *and* in-combat Charge is going to be a fight that's effectively untankable by non-warriors. As such, I think it's unlikely we'll see a fight that looks like that.

 

Lithose

Why wouldn't you want an enrage status? The only negative to having an enrage status is in PvP, from a single ability, which comes from other warriors, which would be the least effective class against you.

Its a great talent..The only unfortunate part is that we don't have more ways to spend that enrage. To be honest, I wish they would would tweak Retaliation and Recklessness to become "enrage activated" abilities, each on 3 minute cool downs. With having an enrage cost, hopefully they could buff them slightly (IE adding recks fear break back.). Changing these to be more in line with frenzied regen would cut down on our key binds and give us those other two options for enrage usage. In any case, more enrage costing abilities need to be added (Or old lackluster abilities buffed, now requiring enrage, which is optimal to me, because key binds are quickly becoming a concern for me.) if they want this mechanic to be "fun" and an integral part of play.

 

Darmon

As i see, the only possible drawback of Imp Def stance enrage is that prot warrior OT/dps can't get enraged and receive 10% dmg bonus. There should be a way to get enraged in those situations also.

 

Nezralix

And unfortunately, mostly as a result of rage starvation, off-tanking is one of the worst-performing aspects of Protection warrioring.

I think I'd prefer some talent along the lines of "when a shield is equipped, damage done is increased by x% and rage generated from damage is increased by y%". In fact, I think the "increased rage when shield is equipped" part should probably be baseline, but the increased damage could work well with the attempted emphasis of using a shield in the Prot tree.

 

Ballistae

If you're OT-ing you already have a way qva Intervene. If you're dps-ing... chances are you're not in defensive stance and thus you won't have the damage penalty anyway.

 

Suesse

That's a good point. You can keep it up 40% of the time by intervening the current tank. You'll even get some rage assuming you get hit, refunding the rage cost. The downside would be that you have to move out of melee range to cast it and if you avoid the attack you're pretty screwed (lost a ton of rage with no advantage).

 

Borodin

Charge in Defensive Stance: that would make Warbringer worthwhile outside PvP but Blizzard also said in the clarifications to todays "Hello Warriors":

"Warbringer: What we don't want to see is Charge becoming part of a tanking rotation. At the moment it will remain usable only in Battle Stance. An experimental idea to be sure."
"Stance Dancing: The short answer here is we want just the right amount of it. "

So it looks like it's a no-go and we'll be Weapon Throwing to pull or Charging and losing all but 10 of the rage by stance changing.

I forsee Warbringer moving up the tree a bit though.

 

Dots

I don't think it is currently possible to intercept any boss as long as you are tanking it, except after a knock-back or something like that. This shouldn't be a problem. I also don't think it will be moved up in the tree, or at least not much, because it shouldn't be possible to have it in the same spec as Improved Intercept.

About the off-tanking, there are like two 25-man bosses in TBC that required an off-tank to build threat. Both had abilities that are supposed to feed the off-tank rage, surely these can be improved if that encounter design ever returns.

 

Darmon

I don't agree with the part of getting enraged be tied to def stance only. All the other talent tree have a talented enrage mechanism, that is not tied to stance and does not fade out of the stance. That should be the implementation in the protection tree also.

 

Liar

It's not just about building threat as OT, it's about your contribution to the raid after your mob(s) is/are dead. If you can't get enraged then you lose 10% damage, a percentage of something that is already low to begin with. It's really no fun to finish tanking P2 flames at Illidan then be the debuff/intervene bitch because you can't just do anything else.

And for the record: Never ever make another Mother Shahraz style boss for tanks. Just don't do it. OTing that was the most boring thing I have experienced (until I got ahold of some card game WoW addons <_<) - not that MTing it is any less boring because DPS can't catch up to you anyway in SR gear.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Ballistae

I suppose in-combat Charge along with the Safeguard talent is Blizzards way of giving the warrior tanks a corresponding ability to druids' shapeshifting and paladins' Hand of Freedom.

With 3 seperate cooldowns it is likely that almost all roots and snares will be dispellable, even though the stance dancing necessary means the rage cost is very steep. This is also true for stance dancing to use Berserker Rage for countering fears, though the rage cost is somewhat mitigated by the extra rage gain the rage gives us.

A similar solution to in-combat Charges (and Intercepts, for that matter) could make it more worthwhile. If Charge gave it's rage bonus gradually (a RoT?) instead of immediately, it would allow us to Charge, dance back to Defensive and still have some options besides auto-attacking.

[edited out the babbling of a sick mind] Perhaps Blizzard would like tanks to spec into Tactical Mastery again. And frankly, if the prot tree weren't so bloated already, I could see a lot of utility in being able to stance-dance more freely. Perhaps Tactical Mastery could be given an extra bonus or be combined with another talent... perhaps a Shout buff a bit like Booming Voice or Commanding Presence.