Dots

HP: 7584 (assumption, I am at 7963 as tauren)
Str: 179
Agi: 108 (= 216 base AC and 1.73% base crit)
Sta: 161
Int: 31
Spi: 61

AP: 578

Parry: 5%
Block: 5%
Dodge: 2.23% (1.51% of this should be from base agility, leaving 0.72% as base dodge)

 

Voxx

So I just did some, albeit rather rough, calculations on the WoW-EU warrior forums about Titan Grip dps at 80 in some maxed out raid setting. I don't really know if what I assumed is accurate but if it is we're going to have serious serious rage issues.

With the current rage formula, 9000 AP, 5% Boss armor reduction, glancing blows in consideration, 40% crit, 14% miss chance on white damage and capped expertise we would see enough rage generation from our offhand weapon alone (with Titan Grip that is, and a 240 dps weapon) to maintain a 100% full dps cycle. By full cycle I mean Bloodthirst on every cooldown, Whirlwind on every cooldown, Heroic Strike on every swing and have 163 rage left over on a 20 second cycle.

 

jere

Thanks!

One question, is the 7584 health the base for the class, or the base for the class + contribution from stamina - 180? I am trying to differentiate between races for a warrior friend of mine. My initial assumption is that it is from base health + stam contribution - 180, but that is just a guess on my part.

 

Dots

7963 is my health with no items equipped and no talent points spent, that should be 7584 for other races. My stamina tooltip reads 'Stamina 161 Increases Health by 1501'.

Would be good if a non-tauren could confirm these numbers since the racial might screw them up. I'm also interested in seeing paladin and DK base health at 80.

 

Exiliad

If nothing else, the rage generation formula will most certainly be readjusted for WotLK.

 

jere

That makes sense, so warrior base health should be (from those numbers):
7584 - 161*10 + 180 = 6154 for each race

The 1501 health from 161 stam is (161*10-180)*1.05

Another race or two posting some confirmation would be nice, but this will probably suffice for my friend. He just wanted to get an idea of what it would be.

Ask and ye shall receive:
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/6...instatsxi2.gif

The stats supplied for that chart came from a bloodelf and dwarf, with humans/draenei being figured out using stat deltas (and are thus denoted by a *).

This isn't my chart btw, but another person got this info together over at maintankadin:
Maintankadin :: View topic - Base stats and mana costs for level 80 Paladins (data here!)

 

Fellwraith

Hitting more buttons doesn't make anyone's job more fun or engaging. Having a dynamic fight where you have to make multiple decisions quickly and pull off a series of actions is fun. There's plenty of ways to make a tank's job interesting just with encounter design. Blizzard's done a pretty good job of that with fights like M'uru, Vashj, and Kael'thas (25 man).

 

PSGarak

What you're asking for is that rather than having several buttons that all say THREAT, you have some buttons that say THREAT + ???, so that you actually make decisions about what to use when you're tanking based on whether nor not ???_1 > ???_2 for that particular situation, be it multi-mob, needing mitigation, caster, ranged, mobility, or whatever else you might have a need for. This is perfectly valid, since 6 THREAT buttons is a sorta boring move list that realistically doesn't bring anything to the class that 1 THREAT button already didn't. Asymptotically, order them by threat per GCD and write a macro that runs down the list until one of them goes off--6 THREAT buttons are now 1, with no loss. Trading interrupts, dispels, reflects, and multi-target is a far more interesting choice.

As I understand it, the Paladin Shield Spec talent on live currently does not increase block value from strength. Either the wording change means that it will now do so, or it already did and the wording means it won't benefit Shield of Righteousness (shield slam clone).

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Shha

Well I did my own math:

240 dps seem rather high given how vanilla-BC increase for highest dps 2h was 96-148 or so. 240 is more then that increase, and it would apply to the very end of WOTLK content.

According to formulas right now the coefficient for lvl 80 should be around 320. That means that a 200dps(more likely) 2h with 9000 ap (~650 dps) vs a mob at 10% damage reduction will do :

damage = 850dps x3.4 (assuming 3.4 speed weapon) = 2890 average
After damage reduction = 2601.
OH penalty included (62.5% damage) = 1625
Various modifiers (BF , 2h spec etc) - assumed at 8% = 1755 damage

Rage = 1755x15/4x320 +1.75x3.4/2 = 20.6 + 2.975 = ~23.5 rage per OH swing.
Crit Rage = 2x23.5= 47
Glancing rage (assuming average damage at 70%) = 17.4

40%x47+25%x17.4+25%x23.5 = 29 average rage per OH attack, including misses/crits/glancings.

3.4 speed weapon with full flurry 10% haste and improved WF will hit at ~2.1 Speed.

29/2.1 = 13.8 rage/sec

20 second rotation rage balance not including MH swings

Income :

Berserker rage = +20
OH swings = 13.8x20 = 276

Expenses
BT - 90
WW - 50
Slam (Bloodsurge) - 18

158

Surplus = 118

Its enough to Heroic Strike every MH swing, which Im not sure if is blizzard intent. However considering we lose a lot of buffs due to them overlapping, we can expect our stats at 80 to actually decrease slightly at first, and not go that much up after. After 2.0 changes to imp zerker stance and rampage, getting 3k attack power was perfectly possible before BC. Counting WF AND Paladin buffs (which was obviously not possible) the average warrior ap was more in realm of 3.3k (i remember being at over 2200 ap on loatheb before the 2.0 - which added 200 ap from rampage, 10% total, survival hunter buffs and such) . That means the increase to current ~ 5k AP is around 50%. Counting the same for Wotlk would put us at 7500 ap and consideirng we lose rampage ap, battleshout etc - its more around 6500. With such AP change the rage generation gets more in line - the OH generation will be enough to support the rotation, but not much more if anything. Considering random rage spikes, it might end up with heroic % around same as now.



Regardless of all that shaky math (since I dont know the stats on raid gear etc). The whole rage "normalization" is somewhat decaying ,and maybe a new formula would need to be in place. The problem with rage normalization is at its core - they made that generated rage was divided in two parts - the non scaling depending on weapon used, and scaling depending on damage. The problem with such design is, that it works fine at first - but as the damage grows , it actually scales faster and faster. At 80 with current model, the damage "part" of rage will be around 90% - so the normalization will be around HALF as effective as at 60.

 

DarthGreg

In what way do you mean this is a serious issue? Do you mean that TG Warriors will hit a gear plateau where upgrades no longer have a practical effect on rage generation, or am I misunderstanding something? Makes sense, but as was mentioned above, a change to the TG rage generation formula isn't unfathomable. Not having to manage rage in any way certainly makes the class less interesting to play.

In your calculation did you consider rage lost from spiking over 100?

One of the immediate issues I perceived with TG was the impact of slower weapons on rage generation. We'll be dealing with spikier and less predictable rage which will cause missed cooldowns, leading to DPS loss. Before TG was moved to the top of the tree, I fiddled around with various talents to increase total rage to mitigate this problem, though it could prove to be a bit much during Execute phases. Executing is fun, but doing piddling DPS until 19% really isn't.

 

Wyuli

I think there's a distinction to be drawn between just hitting more buttons and facilitating a more dynamic play style. An example of the former case would be the current state of Affliction Warlocks who have to carefully monitor timers on several spells in order to maximize their DPS. For this reason alone, let alone the generally superior damage potential of Demo/Destro Warlocks, playing an Affliction Warlock well is challenging and, from my experience, somewhat frustrating. I agree that simply adding more buttons is not an enticing change, especially if new abilities are just strict replacements for other abilities (eg. Sunder Armor vs. Devastate).

An example of the latter case is Revenge, which is in theory a skill that is available for a limited duration and requires a specific event in order to trigger. In practice, of course, it's up so often that it just becomes a part of our tanking rotation and we seldom think twice about it.

I'm sure what is fun is different for different people, and maybe I'm really subconsciously just searching for fun, shiny, interesting new toys, but I believe a case can be made for introducing more decision making into tanking without necessarily trying to overwhelm tanks with innumerable buttons to press. We already do this anyway, since every Rev in a SS-->Rev-->Dev-->Dev represents a purposeful choice to use an ability that is generally better TPR and TPS than Dev. If Revenge was a substantially more powerful move, but could only be used when, say, your health dropped below 30%, it would be more dynamic, but not necessarily more complex, since you'd just replace Rev with Dev more often in your normal tanking cycle. I'm not trying to make a push for this change or anything, merely listing it as what is a (hopefully helpful) illustration.

S&B is a step towards this idea of "changing things up" a bit, but theorycraft and anecdotal evidence seem to demonstrate its poor implementation as a talent that is both desirable for its increased threat output potential and its relative lack of "interestingness."

A lot of the fun tanks get to have is with bosses that have interesting encounter mechanics, but most tanks I speak with don't seem to have a problem with most boss fights. It's the mundane, or perhaps mind-numbingly repetitious, tasks like repeated trash clears that are the most grating, and if there were ways to make that more interesting without hurting overall threat generation, I can't imagine it being a negative thing. This is sort of the direction it looks like they're taking with things like S&B and higher CD/more effective abilities like Thunderclap: the less spamming attacks and more thinking/attention to detail required to use them, the less "monotonous" things become.

 

Voxx

Loosely speaking yes, our 100 rage cap is probably going to be quite a nuisance at end-game. One main hand crit with Titan Grip would be providing something like 80 rage. I used to consider 20 rage as a safe amount to bank to avoid spikes over 100. With a single MH crit pushing me to 100, and offhand crits generating roughly 50 rage, we're really limited with efficient ways to dump rage. Slam costs 15 rage and a gcd. Heroic Strike costs 50 ish considering the lost main hand swing. So we're stuck between Slam probably not dumping enough rage and Heroic Strike dumping way more than we can afford.

I'm guessing they revamp the rage formula at 80, or just revamp it in regards to Titan Grip (as I haven't looked at rage generation for a 1h weapon at 80). Still it's something I'm going to be looking into as I'd rather see the rage income "counterbalanced" than Titan Grip as a talent.

 

nfw

I believe you didn't take into account of the defensive stance penalty.

 

Shha

Weapons arent THAT MUCH slower though, and rage generation wont be more spiky. Change to WF is actually a big boost to TG completely negating problems you describe. 3.5 speed weapons with average haste/wf/flurry will hit at 2.1 speed - barely slower then my current dw setup (around 1.8 i believe all things considered). Lack of wf vs 20% haste = more rage ,and more steady.

Assuming they will follow the trend of making 2handers faster, and give us 3.3-3.4 speed weapons it will be actually comparable to a low-haste DW sunwell setup now.

 

Mild Confusion

S&B can easily be tweaked for better synergy. Instead of just SS and devestate that proc S&B, change it to all attacks while wearing a shield. The talent seems like a good idea in theory, but needs to be adjusted to be good in practice. The whole talent has little synergy with the rest of the prot.

And while ideas are being thrown around, here's one I had for prot dps when not tanking. Either a talent or trainable skill that increases damage to your target when behind them while wearing a shield. For example:

Shield Rush
Required Shields
Increases all damage by 40% when behind target while using a shield.

It would give actual reason to still use a shield when not tanking instead of the usual devastate spam. Make it usuable is all stances and it could even be of use in pvp. Hell, you could even just add that to S&B since the damn talent is 5 points anyhow.

 

Liar

Charge will be usable in Defensive and Berserker Stance now with the Wrathbringer talent. Wow.

Source

It's great they listened to the feedback and there is no way I am not picking this up if it stays like that. The fact that you can even use it in Zerker while grinding is just the icing on the cake. ^_^

On the topic of S&B: I agree it's clunky and needs to be changed. Lots of examples were already mentioned above so I won't get into that. The other thing it needs is a dual purpose. It should not be a waste when you are DPSing in a DW setup.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Machinator

I was going to suggest a good way to help Unending Fury would be to have it increase maximum rage per point in the talent. 1-3 depending on tweaking. Or even items like set bonus that increase max rage.

Does anyone have the rage formula in beta? I thought it scaled with level a good amount, or is it just the 2H part?

"Information is ammunition."

 

Nezralix

I would imagine the rage formula is a little difficult to measure exactly due to lack of precision, but roughly speaking it would be good enough to know how much rage you get from hitting for very, very little (like with no gear on a player that blocks your attack), and then again how much rage you get from hitting for a very large amount. It would be great if someone could get a bit of that data.

 

Fellwraith

They've said a couple times they're expecting us to use our shields when we're dpsing. I'm not sure how they're going to accomplish that since there's a lot of forgone base dps just by only using one hand (not to mention the lower amount of rage generation which means you aren't heroic striking).


The existing rage formula is:
15* [damage done] / 4 * [rage conversion value] + [hit factor] * [weaponspeed] / 2

Hit factor is 3.5 for your MH non-crit, 7.0 for a crit. Divide both those values by 2 for your offhand strike.

The rage conversion value varies with your level, that's also the only unknown value at this point (as far as I understand it). At the start of TBC they changed the hit factor value, but that's been fairly static for a while. They may just need to use a different hit factor for TG, since any other spec will be adversely impacted by a major change to any other value in the formula.

Where is the 320 number you guys are using for rage conversion value coming from? Is that based on actual testing or are you extrapolating it based on the current values? [Edit: remind me to read the small print, I see where you got it from]

 

Machinator

Using wowwiki:

Basic formula R = (7.5d / c + fs) / 2
C for level 80 comes out to be ~320.62

Using LK Arena 1 2h Sword for a weapon and 4k AP, avg hit ~1637.57
Hit: 7.5*1637.57 / 320.62 + 3.5*3.6)/2 = 25.45 rage
Crit (x2.1): 7.5*1637.57*2.1 / 320.62 + 3.5*3.6)/2 = 52.82 rage

Thats without armor but still thats a lot of rage for just the main hand.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Liar

That's really sad to hear. I like DW Devastate and would have loved it if they reverted Devastate to strike with both your MH and OH again (but this time, make it actually do less DPS than the real Warrior DPS specs). Limiting ourselves to 1h/Shield is, as you said, going to cause alot of scaling woes later on. DW just scales better because hit basically never caps out and your rage generation is alot better (which makes other stats worth more for DPS). I just don't get it. Why are your lower tier Prot talents so much better at dual purpose than our deeper talents? This is completely backwards.

Regarding TG: They already said they wanted to reintroduce a DPS penalty so why not have it reduce rage generation by X% while you have 2x2h equipped? It would fix the rage scaling problems without breaking our 2x1h/1x2h weapon setup.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Nezralix

You'd technically still need to verify that they haven't changed the value of "f" in that equation. They might have done so (even though this wouldn't be implicitly expected from the level 70 to 80 transition). They certainly have the freedom to change all kinds of things in the expansion.

I've advocated a bonus to threat generation (EDIT: meant "rage generation") when a shield is equipped, just to account for the fact that rage generation is strictly reduced by its presence. Doesn't seem like a very popular suggestion though.

 

Ziggurat

Changes from today's build, 8905:

Skills
Weapon Throw - renamed Heroic Throw, cooldown increased to 1 min but is now instant cast. Damaged reduced from 100% of ap to 50%.
Thunderclap - damage increased for all ranks by 50%
Enraged Assault - now Enraged Regeneration, regens 30% of your total health over 10 sec, consumes all rage effects on you
Shield Wall - increased to 60% DR from 50%
Taunt - cooldown decreased to 8 seconds from 10

Arms Talents
Bladestorm - 1 whirl/sec for 6 sec, up from 1/1.5 sec
Imp MS - Enraged Assault refreshing MS portion has been removed
Mace spec - gives 3/6/9/12/15% ignore armor instead of chance to generate rage

Fury Talents
Furious Attacks - changed to ppm instead of 50/100% chance to apply
Imp WW - Increases WW damage by 10/20% instead of reducing cooldown by 1/2 sec

Prot Talents
Shockwave - damage increased to 75% of ap up from 50% of ap
Sword and Board - reduced to 3 ranks, increases crit chance of devastate by 5/10/15% chance and has 10/20/30% to refresh and give a free shield slam
Vitality - Reduced to 3 ranks, increases str/sta by 2/4/6% and gives 2/4/6 expertise
Shield Mastery - Reduced to 2 ranks and merged with imp shield block, increases block value by 15/30% and reduces cooldown on Shield Block by 10/20 sec
Imp SW - Now Improved Disciplines, reducing cooldown of sw/ret/reck by 30/60 sec
Conc Blow - Damage increased to 75% of ap up from 25% ap and extra threat bonus removed
Imp Shield Bash - Now Gag Order, gives shield bash and heroic throw 50/100% chance to silence for 3 seconds, and increases damage of shield slam by 5/10%
Improved Taunt - removed, baked into base taunt (See above)
Last stand - Cooldown decreased to 5 minutes from 6.
Damage Shield - Whenever you take damage from or block a melee attack you cause damage equal to 10/20% of your block value.
Charge - Now Warbringer. Your Charge ability is now usable while in combat and in any stance.
Puncture - 3rd rank added, reduces rage on sunder/devastate by 3 rage.

Glyphs
Glyph of Battle -- Increases the duration of your Battle Shout ability by 1 min.
Glyph of Bloodrage -- Reduces the health cost of your Bloodrage ability by 50%.
Glyph of Charge -- Increases the range of your Charge ability by 5 yards.
Glyph of Thunder Clap -- Increases the radius of your Thunder Clap ability by 2 yards.
Glyph of Mocking Blow -- Increases the damage of your Mocking Blow ability by 25%.
Glyph of Enduring Victory -- Increases the window of opportunity in which you can use Victory Rush by 5 sec.
Glyph of Taunt -- Increases the chance for your Taunt ability to succeed by 8%.
Glyph of Heroic Strike -- You gain 10 rage when you critically strike with your Heroic Strike ability.
Glyph of Revenge -- After using Revenge, your next Heroic Strike costs no rage.
Glyph of Barbaric Insults -- Your Mocking Blow ability also taunts the target.
Glyph of Cleaving -- Reduces the rage cost of Cleave by 5.
Glyph of Execution -- Your Execute ability deals damage as if you had 10 additional rage.
Glyph of Mortal Strike -- Increases the damage of your Mortal Strike ability by 10% but the healing penalty is reduced by half.
Glyph of Bloodthirst -- Increases the healing you receive from your Bloodthirst ability by 20%.
Glyph of Whirlwind -- Increases the number of targets you Whirlwind ability hits by 1.
Glyph of Hamstring -- Gives your Hamstring ability a 10% chance to immobilize the target for 5 sec.
Glyph of Blocking -- Increases your block value by 10% for 10 sec after using your Shield Slam ability.
Glyph of Spell Reflection -- Reduces the cooldown of your Spell Reflection ability by 2 sec.
Glyph of Intervene -- Increases the number attacks you intercept for your Intervene target by 1.
Glyph of Sweeping Strikes -- You generate 30 rage over 12 sec when you use your Sweeping Strikes ability.
Glyph of Rending -- Increases the duration of your Rend ability by 3 sec.
Glyph of Overpower -- Adds a 50% chance to enable your Overpower when your attacks are parried.
Glyph of Sunder Armor -- Your Sunder Armor ability affects a second nearby target.
Glyph of Devastate -- Your Devastate ability now applies two stacks of Sunder Armor.
Glyph of Mortal Strike -- Increases the damage of your Mortal Strike ability by 10% but the healing penalty is reduced by half.
Glyph of Whirlwind -- Increases the number of targets you Whirlwind ability hits by 1.
Glyph of Victory Rush -- Your Victory Rush ability has a 30% increased critical strike chance against targets above 90% health.
Glyph of Resonating Power -- Increases the maximum targets affected by your Thunder Clap ability by 4.
Glyph of Taunt -- Increases the chance for your Taunt ability to succeed by 8%.
Glyph of Sweeping Strikes -- You generate 30 rage over 12 sec when you use your Sweeping Strikes ability.
Glyph of Sunder Armor -- Your Sunder Armor ability affects a second nearby target.
Glyph of Shield Slam -- Increases your block value by 10% for 10 sec after using your Shield Slam ability.
Glyph of Revenge -- After using Revenge, your next Heroic Strike costs no rage.
Glyph of Barbaric Insults -- Your Mocking Blow ability also taunts the target.
Glyph of Execution -- Your Execute ability deals damage as if you had 10 additional rage.
Glyph of Cleaving -- Reduces the rage cost of Cleave by 5.
Glyph of Rapid Charge -- Reduces the cooldown of your Charge ability by 20%.

removed some duplicate glyphs

 

Zaroua

The changes, like Ghostcrawler said, dramatically increase Prot's DPS. The bloat of the Prot tree has also been significantly reduced. And on top of that, it seems like Prot is going to be critting a lot more, to the point where Impale and Deep Wound start being extremely attractive for threat.

Dogma also claims that God has a sense of humor and at times presents Him as a joker of sorts, thus again lowering Him to human level. While I am certain God has a "sense of humor" since He gave it to us, I find it most difficult to believe He finds humor in sin since He will cast the unforgiven sinner into the lake of fire for eternity. Not very funny at all.

 

Machinator

Depending on the proc rate this could make or break fury as the only warrior on an arena team. Also first time I think Ive seen notes mention ppm as opposed to chance on hot or something.


Enraged Assault - now Enraged Regeneration, regens 30% of your total health over 10 sec, consumes all rage effects on you
Hopefully they add something else to Imp MS and Unending Fury(like maximum rage). I assume the UF part is gone even though its not in notes.

"Information is ammunition."