PSGarak

The value in the database is also 45.
I think we need to run some tests with a warrior and a caster to find out what's really going on.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Ivanstone

The point I was trying to make that the idea of an AP+Str isn't really necessary and doesn't quite compare with AP+Agi. Still after reading your post I decided to tool around on Wowhead and I came to the realization that the real problem is the lack of Strength items with diverse stats. It seems that 5 or 6 stat items are more common for leather and mail. Mail often has a mana stat as its 6th stat. Off the top of my head two pieces of Onslaught have 5 stats. Strength and Crit (or AG) are almost universal to most DPS plate but they often don't give two additional stats. One extra is the norm for higher level DPS gear.

 

Rustik

I was some time ago, but I seem to recall One of the Blues stating that yes, they'd be reitemizing things, and it would probably result in the need to retune existing raid content. It's buried in blue posts though, so it's possible I'm just remembering something else.

Either way, I'm sure blizzard is aware that you are losing avoidance, and they are likely prepared to change the encounters if it turns out you're too gimpy from the avoidance loss.

 

Sepulture

It looks like the new race of choice for Alliance Prot warriors who want top notch survivability will be Nelf.

WoW Forums -> Orc Racial: Hardiness & New stun mechanics.

That's the earlier 1% dodge stacked with 2% miss for 3% greater avoidance. This is definitely significant, especially at higher avoidance levels. The much improved nature resistance is gravy.

 

PSGarak

Quickness is the name of the current nelf 1% dodge racial, so I'm pretty sure the miss chance is a replacement, not an addition. Not that that isn't awesome. It's on par with the (now non-scaling) tauren HP racial.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

JamesVZ

It reads to me like they removed the 1% dodge and replaced it with 2% miss to keep it in line with the spell based resistances.

Official Slackie Fanclub. The dude gets ALL the ladies.

In regards to Icecrown Radiance:

 

Gellor

You seem to be reading a lot more into my comment than me. No where did i even remotely express some of the things you are suggesting, it was just a "damn they've gutted our t6 avoidance to add str", to make it work with the mechanic changes. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Darkrenown

I honestly didn't expect to get salv "baked in", so I was pleasently surprised when I saw the comment. Also, I still kinda think of salv as a bonus, both from pre-BC horde raiding and my guild being short on them for a lot of BC. There's also a lot of non 25 man content coming in wrath where you might not have a pally anyway, so having the threat build in is nice.

 

Muggins

Haven't seen it mentioned but Imp Shield Bash had its name changed to Gag Order (great name) on the mmo talent calculator and also incorperates Heroic Throw 50/100% chance of silence for 3 secs on top of the previous effects. Should help when pulling caster mobs that just refuse to move without LoS.

 

Katrael

The issue with the leather v plate itemization is, to my mind, not whether I scale well enough with my own gear versus a rogue with his that our DPS is equitable, but that the option exists by downgrading armor class to improve my DPS. This puts me in direct competition with the rogues and the ferals(And at least for my guild the hunters and shaman want rogue gear too).

If warriors scale better than rogues with gear, than it still stands to reason that I get more out of the better leather gear than the inferior plate. This would be fine but there are finite drops. While eventually everyone might gear up, the current situation of perhaps ten or more raiders wanting a piece of leather(talking about you leggings of immortal night) instead of drops that could have been more tailored to the specific class is a recipe for frustration, and seems like an inelegant solution to either A, toning down the DPS of plate wearers or B, slowing the influx of gear to a progressing guild.

 

Nezralix

Well, there were a few comments on this topic, so I sorta lumped them together in my response.

EDIT: I'd also like to add a note on Thunderclap.

According to this blue post:

"Yes, the damage is 300 now. We wanted to buff damage by 50% to make up for the cooldown increasing. Having to hit it less often for a bigger effect is a good way to remove spam. It does do 75% threat (it was 150% on Live IIRC) and has an AP coefficient of 12%. Talented and glyphed, this makes it a crazy good ability... possibly too good, but we'll see."

Thunderclap threat has been reduced by half. I think this basically implies that we're breaking even on Thunderclap threat. Essentially, we need enough attack power (at a 12% coefficient) to double the damage that it was doing previously. At 70, it does 184 damage base, so that means you need 184/0.12 = 1314 attack power to bring it equal to where it was before in terms of threat. At 80, it does 300 damage, so that's 2500 attack power.

Ultimately, it seems like even though you're seeing bigger numbers, this is a break-even or maybe even a loss on threat. Certainly not what I was expecting.

 

Fellwraith

Tclap seems like one of those abilities that could scale really well, if improved tclap affects both the bonus damage as well as the base ability damage, it'll be pretty amazing.

I was looking at what a warrior's stats would look like in the 10 man Nax gear with raid buffs, by my math you'll have over 2850 AP fully raid buffed (Battleshout, Strength of earth, UR/Abom's might, kings, mark) plus whatever you get from your base stats for being level 80. That adds 343 base damage to your thunderclap, increasing it to 643 at level 80. Factor in the imp tclap talent and you're up to 1286 damage from thunderclap before armor. Even with a 75% threat handcuff, that's a lot.

 

Nezralix

I think it will scale pretty well from a damage perspective. It's just a minor drawback that you basically need to be a moderately high level of attack power before you get the same benefit that you would have gotten with the previous incarnation. In raid settings especially, I'm sure it will be superior.

I vaguely recall something about the Imp TC talent reducing the threat coefficient slightly so as to not make it so necessary for tanking, but WoWWiki doesn't corroborate that: Thunder Clap - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

In fact, they suggest that the current threat modifier is 175%, rather than 150%.

 

mistersix

You may be thinking of blue comments about shockwave as opposed to tclap.

 

Nezralix

Nope!

 

mistersix

Odd. I remember blue actively talking about buffing tclap so all flavors of warriors could aoe tank with some reliability and not just deep prot.

 

Deathwing

They've kinda put themselves in a hard spot here. From what I can tell, they've balanced it such that shockwave + imp tclap + damage shield = solid AE agro, maybe even letting the DPS AE too. However, as mistersix has pointed out, this goes against what they're trying to accomplish with letting even the dps specs of tank classes tank 5-mans, where AE agro will be very important.

Obviously they are trying work around this because shockwave and damage shield aren't as dependable AE tools as tclap. The real obvious solution is put a threat modifier on tclap like it had before, but they're also trying to get away from those types of abilities.

To satisfy all conditions, probably going to have to fine tune tclap so that it's enough by itself and that imp tclap, shockwave, and damage shield don't encroach on paladins. Or, they could allow WW in defensive stance.

Do paladins still "get" that niche?

 

Borodin

Thunderclap threat is 175% damage in Live (Ghost has remembered incorrectly) so the base threat has been more than halved.
The damage has increased 50% but since the cooldown also increased 50% there's a lot of work for the AP to do (as has been said).

Has anyone been able to establish if the 12% AP modifier is itself doubled by Improved Thunderclap?
If it is that of course means less AP is needed to reach the previous threat values.

 

Nezralix

Just for reference, if it was 175% threat and not 150% threat, then you'd need 3333 attack power to make the level 80 version threat-equivalent to what we had previously.

 

Zegai

Has anyone tried reporting that?

It probably isn't intended (unless they want something like: dps warrior can get the mobs off the healer, the prot warrior can generate aggro with damage shield+shockwave).

 

Gink

I have a question about One-Handed Weapon Specialization vs. Two-Handed Weapon Specialization.
In case of tanking or off-tanking in a 20/51 TG build, using a 2-hander + shield:
Will the 2-h spec increase my damage on Shield Slams and Thunderclap the same way 1-h spec currently does?

Looking at the tooltip I would assume it does not, but has anyone tested this?
I would love to see a tooltip change to 2-h spec to help out us Fury warriors a little on threat when tanking.

Looking more closely at these spells on Wowhead, they read:
For 1-h: [Apply Aura]: Mod Dmg % (1) Value: 10
For 2-h: [Apply Aura]: Mod Dmg % (1) Value: 5

Would this imply that 2-h spec actually does work in the same way as 1-h spec?

Gink

 

Borodin

"
Looking more closely at these spells on Wowhead, they read:
For 1-h: [Apply Aura]: Mod Dmg % (1) Value: 10
For 2-h: [Apply Aura]: Mod Dmg % (1) Value: 5
"

I think that's pretty conclusive that they work in the same way.
1H Spec always did this, only the wording has changed to provide clarity.
Your right that the wording for 2H talent should similarly change.

I say good catch, lets hope Blizzard picks up on it.

 

Ivanstone

There's been some discussion regarding baked in Salvation. Some previously in this thread have suggested Defensive Stance's threat modifier is 175% thus offsetting to a degree Tclap's base threat modifier.

It also occurred to me that Tclap may have received some additional scaling. On live Tclap is horribly inaccurate and will not crit since its a spell and we have no reasonable means of improving this. The change to Crit and Hit rating into generic stats may allow us to actually get this ability to reasonably hit and crit. The addition of Incite combined with Impale and Deep Wounds will give additional threat as well.

 

daf

Disclaimer: I'm not in beta so my experience is limited from what i read on the official forums and here, still I'd like to share some ideas in the opens someone will find them worthy of reposting in the beta forums.

My suggested changes to the current Arms Tree (8905) would be:

Protection

• Tactical Mastery Removed (effect added to baseline abilities)
• Toughness Moved to Tier 1 into Tactical Mastery's position.

Arms

• Improved Charge, also increasing stun effect for .5/1s.
• Improved Slam removed, effect added to Strength of Arms (to reduce "fat" in the tree).
• Endless Rage, Now also allows warrior to keep an extra 25 rage wile stance dancing (for a total of 50 rage).
• Bladestorm, 1 WW every 2s (or more) but usable to break any CC and allows the warrior to use all their abilities during the duration.

I think this would make Arms the stance dancer tree and still best at PvP with the Bladestorm change. I have other concerns (Sudden Death, Justified Killing, Imp. Mortal Strike, No anti-disarm) but others with more insight have pointed them out as well.

Something I've also found pretty cool was the suggestion to allow shield abilities to be used with a 2h, something that would make arms pvp allot more interesting for the flexibility in terms of choices of abilities you could use (and not to overpowered considering fury and prot have access to them too). 1 point talent "Bladed Shield" deep down in Arms to allow Shield Slam, Shield Bash, Spell Reflect and maybe even Shield Wall wile using a 2h weapon would be very welcome.

edit: Also the ability to change stances at any time (wile even being CC) would help (but probably too op).

Anyways, sorry for interrupting the threat discussion, carry on :p

 

Zerai

Those arms changes would completely negate everything Blizzard has been trying to do...while making Arms completely overpowered.

What they are trying to do is so that Arms isn't the pvp tree. That you have a choice. Instead of Pvp? Arms. Pve dps? Fury. Tanking? Protection. They are trying to make it more like DK.

What will end up happening is a best dps and best pvp build will be found, but it might change based on fotms. If rogues/warriors come up on top again, arms will probably be dominant. But casters? Fury or Prot (if they keep how it is currently) might be the best.