Grayson Carlyle

It could be solved by using all leather gear. Currently, the only leather gear that isn't best-in-slot for us is the stuff with lots of hit that puts us way over hit cap.

Or they could give us 4 DPS stats per piece of plate.

 

PSGarak

The change to Fury's enrage wasn't a nerf, situationally. It's now a 30% chance on incoming damage, not 100% chance in incoming crit, which means it actually procs outside of PvP now. Standard tank&spank fights not so much, by anything with raid damage, as well as soloing and tanking, can now get the benefit. It's a more even talent. Not that 10% isn't a huge nerf from 15%, much less 40%, but 10% sometimes is better than 15% never. I'd call it a redesign, not a nerf.

The TG change most effects the value of Bloodsurge and Improved Whirlwind. BT, being a not-weapon thing, is unaffected. It will wreck +hit scaling though, now that you have three breakpoints (capping BT, capping WW, capping autoattack).

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Emeraude

You're not alone, this latest revision of Titan's Grip is basically the polar opposite of it's original incarnation that lowered our white damage, but left our yellow untouched.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

 

Graul

Even though my math was somewhat flawed, it already showed a close enough approximation that DW 1h weapons using Heroic Strike (Incite) every attack to be just slightly above TG in it's prenerfed state with no Heroics at the same gear levels. So what exactly is the point of this talent now? Surely not PvP, and you'll need right around 688 hit rating at 80 (if you took 3/3 Precision) to no longer miss with specials anymore right? Aren't you giving up the "massive stats" advantage 2h weapons were supposed to have over 1h?

 

Septus

The devastate change, on top of everything else for prot, seems a little weird to me. I've been seeing some pretty high numbers on prot before tonight, and this makes me wonder if prot dps would even surpass bear form(surely it already surpasses prot pallies), and prot warriors have a very wide range of utility abilities for pvp.

 

Prinsesa

If we break it down:

* You get a passive 2/4% chance to avoid spells
* The cooldown on Spell Reflect is reduced by 2/4 seconds (down to 6 seconds)
* Casting Spell Reflect (on yourself) also casts Spell Reflect on 2/4 other party members (basically, your whole party gets Spell Reflect whenever you cast it)

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Shha

You will have to press 2 cause of bloodsurge ! Then again lets see with the new changes.

Protection got an insane buff right now - 0/30/41 seems like the new way to go lol for pve dps. Devastate/flurry build were competitive before that change. Now devastate is by far the most damaging attack warriors have due to lack of cooldown.

Devastate rotation = 31.5 sec 20xdeva+3xWW+1 conc blow
TG dual wield rotation = 31 sec (3xWW+5xBT)

(assuming 6k AP, 150dps 1h, 200 dps 2h)

Devastate rotation

Devastate = 505 damage + 80%*(150+6000/14)*2.6*1.1(1h spec) = 1708 non crit
WW = 162.5%*(150+6000/14)*2.6*1.1 = 2670
Conc Blow = 4500*1.1 =4950

Total rotation excluding crits/armor etc = ~47000

TG rotation

BT = 2700*1.05 damagex5= 2835
WW = 162.5%*(200+6000/14)*3.4*1.05(2h spec)=3650
Slam = 1.2 (3 BT at 40% expected)*1.05*(200+6000/14)*3.6 =2851
Total rotation damage = ~27000

Rage cost of Devastate rotation = 20x9+1x12+3x22= 258
Rage cost of TG rotation 1.2x15+5x30+3x25 = 243

So for about same cost over same time Devastate instants produce almost double the damage of TG (and i forgot to include the miss penalty for WW/Slam, so make it over double).

Now for white damage and general comparison lets see. 1st 30 points are basically the same, except prot build wont get goodies like imp execute or berserker rage. You can get everything else i believe except for missing one point in precision. So lets sum up loses :

1% hit
Cooldown on Berserker rage/deathwish.
Imp zerker stance
Impale (assumign 50% yellow damage and 40% crit = 3% damage)
Deep wounds
5% more damage (2h spec)
8% more damage from using 2h (except for WW, but thats covered in rotation)

What you do get instead
6 expertise (vitality) - so basically -1.5% chance to get dodged (if you are capped, then switch point from weapon mastery to eliminate loss of 1% of hit from precision)
10% strength - i would estimate it at 5% more ap
10% more damage global (1h spec)

After being generous to fury we can reduce those lists to :

6% more damage
5% more ap
deep wounds

vs a bit hard to decide advantage for executes (prot build has almost as cheap executes that do 10% more damage and fast weapons to support them).

Considering that rotation usually constitutes around 35% of warrior damage now (and it will get only higher for devastate/tg builds) and is over double for prot that means

Prot overall damage has 10% more damage+better executes vs 5% ap+deep wounds

I really think prot can pull ahead easily (i didnt count stuff like missing heroic strikes due to TG change...). Just doesnt make sense really.

Wrecking Crew nerf MAYBE was justified, although I have my doubts. But nerf to TG that makes it WORSE then it was initially with 20% haste debuff... just weird.

 

mistersix

Kinda similar to expertise's multiple breakpoints (cap dodge, cap usual boss parry, cap extreme boss parry).

 

Fellwraith

I went through a similar exercise about a week ago. The one thing to think about is if we should gem for resilience instead of defense. All of that Nax 10 man gear has ancillary avoidance/mitigation stats and using 2 gem slots for resilience and the rest for other stats may make more sense than spending 3-4 gem slots on pure defense.

I also think that nax 10 man shield might be worse earlier on than the smithing crafted shield (titansteel shieldwall has 64 defense on it, but fewer other stats). I'm sure there will be other examples of items that have too many different stats on them and not enough of the "you must be this tall to ride" stats like defense.


Ferals have a pretty big leg-up on every other tank in this regard. At the start of the expansion, they should be the easiest to gear up. I understand that dps leather really isn't optimal for tanking, but getting effectively 688.5 "rating points" for 3 talent points is incredibly good. Even if they do have a few items that end up with defense rating on them, they should still end up ahead.

 

Juelz

Sunwell Radiance removed in 3.0

Daelo said:

 

Chirality

The question is this: are they 4 independent spell reflects? Or is it a single spell reflect that can just apply to anyone?

Either way---it makes no sense. Am I to believe that my own shield is so amazing that I can reflect four spells on four different people fourty yards apart with it? It's a bit too...'magical' for warriors.

And even beyond lore/mechanics, it's absolutely, insanely overpowered. A 5 second cooldown reflect that works on my entire arena team?! I don't understand it at all.

That said, I love the 'reduced cooldown' part, and love that they're trying to talent it to be better and more interesting.

 

Darian_TruBlade

I'm concerned about the TG change mostly due to the impact is has on our itemization. Hit Plate isn't particularly useful for Ret Paladins, Arms Warriors and many DKs past the 9% point, and as such it sounds as though we'll have our work cut out for us capping Hit.

The tricky part is the nerf within a nerf aspect of losing 15% hit from most of our specials. That will also reduce your critical strike chance for most specials by 15% of your paper doll crit rate due to the two roll system.

If we assume that the raw stats from using two 2H weapons via TG are worth 5% hit, we're still staring down a 9-13% Yellow DPS nerf for a 30% base weapon damage increase and some pizzaz. The latter affects both White and some Yellow DPS, so it probably balances out to being worthwhile if you're already 50 points into Fury.

I'm curious as to whether Enrage will proc off of DoT ticks or only direct damage. If it's the former it might be a worthwhile DPS talent, if it's the latter it'll probably be too situational. You lose out on Imp Zerker Rage and Imp Whirlwind to get it, or vital Arms Talents.

 

• landsoul

Two roll system? Not sure that's around.

Soon as I can get on the realm I am going to hit on some dolls to get a feel for options. I have most of the 80 blue gear or SWP equivs, and some good 80 one handers and an 80 shield. I am going to try sword and board DPS spec to see what kind of results I am getting and then compare then to the more traditional specs.

More later.

 

Darian_TruBlade

Last that I checked melee specials functioned on a two roll system. They have the same code entry in combatlogs as spells do.

For example, a melee swing looks like this:
SWING_DAMAGE,0x0000000001EBE7ED,"Somenubrouge",0x514,0xF130005366000011,"Gronn-Priest",0x4000a48,415,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

While a melee special attack looks like this:
SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0000000001EBE7ED,"Somenubrouge",0x514,0xF130005366000011,"Gronn-Priest",0x4000a48,26862,"Sinister Strike",0x1
SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000001EBE7ED,"Somenubrouge",0x514,0xF130005366000011,"Gronn-Priest",0x4000a48,26862,"Sinister Strike",0x1,1416,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

There are SWING_MISSED and SPELL_MISSED entries for those respective situations.
SWING_MISSED,0x0000000001EBE7ED,"Kovert",0x514,0xF130004BBD000006,"Lair Brute",0x8000a48,MISS

SPELL_MISSED,0x0000000001EBE7ED,"Somenubrouge",0x514,0xF130004BBD000006,"Lair Brute",0x8000a48,26862,"Sinister Strike",0x1,DODGE

The combat log I took these from isn't a beta log, so it may be different there. However, I think given that we have SUCCESS separate from DAMAGE for special attacks we have an indication that two rolls are being used not just for spells but for melee attacks.

 

• landsoul

Correct, but spell hit is always 100% for physical attack type spells.

Thats just how the code works, not if its a two roll system. The code has to be the same for spellcasters too right? all classes use spell-book type abilities.

It could very well be this: miss rate is 10%, so therefore

swing miss = 10%
spell miss = 0%

 

DarthGreg

TG change makes no sense to me, there is no other plate DPS class that will want so much hit on their gear.

Even if Blizzard itemizes gear to support the TG change: why was it nerfed to begin with? Titan's Grip builds were at the bottom of the DPS totem pole before tonight!

 

PSGarak

Rogue specials were confirmed a while ago based on massive data parses to work on a two-roll system. One roll for hit/miss/dodge/parry/block, a second roll for hit/crit. Crush/glance do not appear on either table because they're yellow attacks only. We're reasonably sure that caster spells work on a two-roll system, albeit a less complicated one with only hit/miss and hit/crit. The current theorycrafting assumption is that white attacks use a one-roll system and yellow attacks use a two-roll system. This seems to be reasonably consistent with empirical data.

Note that for a Fury build, the new TG miss rider mostly affects whirlwind. Going from a DW setup with 2.4 normalization to a pair of two-handers with 3.3 normalization means you gain 37.5% DPS on that ability. Drop 15% from that due to the miss, it's still a net DPS increase. Same thing happens to bloodsurged Slams, from a DW build. Taking TG is still increasing your damage, just not by as much. I know everyone always has this silly hit-cap fetish, but with the same gear, same buffs, same rotation, equivalent weapons, taking TG still ups your damage, and your AP scaling, at all gear levels, unlike the original (dehaste) implimentation of TG. (Unless Heroic Strike also gets the miss chance, that might mess something up).

TG may not be a particularly strong talent at the moment, but it's not a completely ass-backwards one like the original version was that lowered AP scaling compared to a DW build. This patch gives every indication of being very half-done when it was loaded, and GC flat-out said as much in a hunter thread (one of their nerfs was already tested and lessened internally before it hit beta). Post feedback, await response.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Glimred

According to the beta forums, TG-penalty affects every single yellow attack including BT.

 

orgasmatron

Looks like we will have dual crusader back

I hate Vem.

 

Calcabrina

Are u sure:

Titan's Grip (Tier 11) now reduces your chance to hit with melee abilities that require weapons by 15%.

means -24 (15+9)? I still hope it means -15 (15 instead of 9), though the word "reduces" makes me figure out it's 24.

Has anyone tested it on beta server?

 

Lithose

Arms- The tree is very clunky and unintuitive right now, its entire rotation is based on procs. At first I was excited over the OP changes, but in practice, the tree just winds up being very sub-optimal due the the constant need to stance dance to make it "work". Baby sitting procs for your DPS rotation isn't fun, nor is it efficient from what I have seen on dummies. Granted, procs to increase your DPS are "fun" and seem good for the game, but warriors are a unique case due to the fact that they have to put themselves "behind" in their resources management to take advantage of it.

For PvP its also a poor system..Too many abilities aren't homogenized through trees that are used too often. Pummel, Zerk ect would need to be moved to battle in order to even start to make battle appealing enough to sit in and or the stance swapping penalty would need to be made less obtrusive by something in lower arms. I can understand why they nerfed wrecking crew, because of how % increases scale, but I'm scratching my head at the poor implementations of the tree.

Fury-I don't think there really is any debate that an incite based fury build, with the heroic strike glyph, is going to be superior to titans now. You can get incite, impale, imp HS, rampage, imp zerk and 2/5 axe, giving you a boat load of crit well before gear, reducing the drain of near constant HS's to very very little. The titans change, while perhaps needed to level off damage in future gear, is really a "clunky" change that doesn't work with itemization. I almost just wish they would get rid of titans or slap a -% damage on it and be done with it, these solutions aren't very elegant and make the talent pretty lackluster.

I'm not debating that it needed a damage reduction, we don't have spread sheets for gear past t7, but really, this is not the way it should be done, it makes the talent fairly worthless in comparison to just saving 10 points and keeping one handers, which will now allow you to skip hit itemization.

Protection-I can't see how it won't deal too much damage with devastate, thats incredible in so far as damage out goes to have it at 80% with a base 15% crit chance..Also, improved spell reflect seems...wild. Really, if there was *any* doubt pvp warriors were specing 21 in protection, its been removed now, that talent alone is worth more than most of the lower arms tree for PvP..At this point, though, it just looks like protection will be a complete monster in arena, I can't see arms comparing, especially if you already have someone for the MS debuff.

 

Gruntle

While I think the 15% added miss chance on yellows is taking it a little bit too far I still think it could have been a lot worse, the -20% speed certainly was. At least this does not mess with rage generation or scaling. People have a tendency of treating hit (and hit caps) as something special, while in reality it's just another stat that has a certain value. This change just changes the value of hit from being about 60% the value of str to something like 90% (just pulled that figure out of thin air though). It is of course a nerf, but we don't really know how itemization will look like quite yet, the gear found so far might change.

But I do wonder if they really thought this one through? If there really is a 2-roll system for our specials the nerf is actually a lot bigger than it would seem, making the damage decrease on specials higher than in a one roll system.

Two-roll system
Before nerf, no hit, no expertise, attacking from behind, 40% crit, no crit damage modifiers:
(1-0.09-0.05)*(2*0.4+0.6)*D = 1.204*D
After nerf, same assumptions:
(1-0.24-0.05)*(2*0.4+0.6)*D = 0.994*D
=> a 17% decrease

One-roll system
Before nerf:
((1-0.09-0.05-0.4)+2*0.4)*D = 1.26*D
After nerf:
((1-0.24-0.05-0.4)+2*0.4)*D = 1.11*D
=> a 12% decrease

edit: fixed some typos. Also, to Lithose, a straight damage reduction on all attacks would have been far worse than changing hit cap for specials is.

 

Viscera

It would be nice if the people with US beta accounts can keep the plate itemisation threads bumped. Fixing plate itemisation will go a long way for all the plate classes and will make the need for hit with this new TG change easier to overcome as well.

Unfortunately it's currently not only the 4 stats on plate, 5 stats on leather and 6 stats on mail that screws us over, but also the fact that there never seems to be a str equivalent in zone quest rewards and in this case the 10-person badge necks 10-person Badge Necklaces - These items cost 25 Emblems of Heroism. World of Raids Gallery. The latter could ofcourse have been fixed by better agi to crit ratios for plate users in wotlk but they didn't do that either.

 

Lithose

That really depends on the amount of damage reduction added. A straight hit reduction decreases over-all damage through itemization points spent on hit anyway, except in this case, there very well may not be enough itemization points to go around due to how the other two specs don't require that much hit.

It just seems counterintuitive to make hit so important to fury, while having it be far less for arms, while your ultimate goal in this expansion is to homogenize gear. It just seems like they could have done something like lower the "normalized" speed of two handers for instants (3.3 to 3.0?) rather than go the route of an itemization change.

 

François

Isn't Arms rotation now a basic keep Rend, rotate 3 Slam + 1 MS, use Overpower and Execute when available ? Are you sure trying to stance dance to WW instead of Slam every 10s worth it, from a damage per sec, or damage per rage point of view ?