Zegai

Actually, for tanking, the devastate buff is fine. It is now on par with Revenge (a bit less threat, in fact), still worse than the other alternatives, but has the proc.

I think it has reached a very good place, for tanking and DPS. The problem really is in how they view fury/arms DPS..

 

Gruntle

That is a very valid point. If TG stays as it is now, they will need to make sure there is gear available to support it. We should not have to rely on leather to get hit.

 

Orsier

I remember seeing somewhere a blue post saying something like they want rogue to gem for hit, where druids can gem for agi. I don't really see the point, but am guessing they want to do the same for fury warriors. They want them to have to gem for hit, where arms warriors can gem for strength, crit, or whatever they want.

I really hate the change on TG because we'll have to spend a shitload of itemization points just to make it useable. So much for the "we don't want RNG" policy too, by the way.

 

Malrix

Or we just gem for hit like rogues will. And someone will have to confirm whether Bloodthirst is included in the list of abilities that suffer the hit penalty.

 

Borodin

Looking at the new Devastate there's no mention of inherant threat or extra threat per Sunder so I am confidently assuming those have been removed in favour of a pure damage to threat attack (except for the Sunder threat on the first 5 Devastates).

Reworking my values for Devastate from yesterday (Level 70 data and abilities, 1500AP, Brutalizer, 15% base Crit before talents etc) I get the following total threat per attack:

Very significant increases further down the list, will certainly need checking with Level 80 weapons and AP values.

 

kargathia

Hardly a math genius here, but wouldn't a straight -dmg coefficient on TG negatively effect scaling worser the further raiding progresses?

"...vincer potero dentro a me l'ardore
ch'i' ebbi a divenir del mondo esperto
e de li vizi umani e del valore"

 

Lithose

No, I'm not, slam is being used rather than WW the problem is mainly that overpower only has a 79% of procing in a given WW cool down..Right now the numbers seem to work because you can do two overpowers in the same activation window, but I'm not sure if thats intended or not, I'm leaning toward not, at all, intended...The problem with execute is still rage siphoning preventing MS or Slam next rotation, I don't feel its a good trade off *but* the caveat to that is I wasn't raid buffed so my AP was a lot lower than it could have been. If I were, my executes might have scaled enough to out-perform slam to the point that combined with the .5 white loss, it would have been better to use execute-->White-->MS and forgoe the next slam, but without raid buffs, it wasn't.

For "taste for blood" I would just prefer to see it made more intuitive, more reliable..Something like every rend tick gives you an "overpowering" might buff, when this buff stacks to 3, your overpower ability becomes active, using your overpower ability removes this buff. Obviously numbers adjusted accordingly..But something to make it more consistent and feel less...RNG.

The problem is rogues can't just skip a talent and ignore hit itemization to provide a net gain in DPS..Fury warriors, from the looks of it, can do just that, depending on HS threat with an incite build.

 

Lithose

Sorry, double post please remove/ignore.

 

Talgog

The 15% is what's causing the problem. It's simply hard to pile up that much +hit rating with current itemization, and while WoTLK gear has bigger +hit numbers on it, keep in mind that hit rating's effectiveness drops in half on the way to 80.

An increased 10%-to-miss special attacks would be much more reasonable, because you *can* almost or completely eliminate that much and feel a real reward for doing so. In what I am putting together as my all-plate, non-raid Titan's Grip gear, I expect to have 15.55% hit between gear and Percision without off-color +hit gemming. So this could be dealt with. Finding another 5% +hit isn't impossible, at least at 70, but it requires seriously one-track gearing and gemming.

If the concept is meant to force more +hit warrior gearing for Titan's Grip warriors, it's fine. The number is just too big and from what I've seen, there also isn't enough +hit to support it in Lich King once rating scaling makes current massive levels of +hit ineffective.

 

Zegai

I don't think the tooltip mentions extra threat today either. But yeah, taking the non-scaling threat out and adding scaling-dmg is a very good change, if that's the case.

 

Lithose

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12050000000000

The problem is, did this just become our best DPS build because dev is no longer constrained by threat issues?

Someone mentioned this build earlier in the thread, and its a fairly valid concern....Granted the devestate won't have the 15% innate crit, but with flurry, 15% HS crit, -2% dodge/6exp built in, 9 rage spammable attack, the build certainly seems like its going to do too much DPS in comparison to the..DPS trees.

Edit--Also, with a Dev/Flurry DPS build, someone mentioned earlier skipping two in off hand damage for executes. With the two piece t6 bonus, focused rage and improved execute, thats 4 rage executes....If we assume 3k AP (not hard given the +6% strength.) then execute would hit for, base, 2052+38 for every rage point after 4...Those are some seriously high numbers. Of course this was possible before, but probably was still sub optimal due to DPS from 100-80 being inferior , now though, I'm not sure.

 

Zegai

I know the tooltip, the thing is, the tooltip today doesn't show anything either: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I don't think it's a problem with devastate per se, it's a problem with the DPS trees/rotations. I do believe they can fix this issue without destroying devastate though.

What I find (very) amusing is prot-palas SotR getting more buffs. Doing some quick math (unless I have no idea how prot paladins work, which is possible), prot warrior vs prot paladin threat is very similar, with paladins generating more AoE threat. However, SotR generates.. something on the line of 60-65% of their total TPS single-target, while shield slam is near 30-35%.

From beta players, are there any threat issues at all with some classes doing 4k+ dps and no salvation?

 

Borodin

Zegai - Blizzard say Salvation has now been "added" to Defensive Stance. We don't know the details for sure but we are assuming that like Defiance it's just been added onto the Stance Threat for a 175% modifier.

This is actually considerably short of the total tps difference present in live which is Tanks at 149.5% and DPS at 70% (some more) which is a net 213% difference in threat generated per point of damage.
So while 175% in Defensive Stance is decent baseline there's a still threat gap to be made up from Live to Wrath.

The increased damage we do and better scaling of our threat needs to bridge that gap.

 

Zegai

Yeah, I know.

That is why I was asking if threat is a concern on the first beta raids - or not.

 

Exiliad

The advantages of a devastate dps build such as this are not limited to the spammable special and the supporting dps talents in the protection tree while maintaining all the goodies upto flurry from fury. As it stands it is looking to be the spec that provides the most dmg; and that's not all it does.

It can also play out as a significant utility role for the MT and a respectable off tank. With safeguard and imp def stance, intervene/shield block can be used on cooldown (for very hard hitting bosses, you'd have to wait 40sec for talented shield block cd, but otherwise can go off intervene's 30sec cd) to increase damage output by another 10%, or be used proactively to give the main tank a free shield wall before any particularly nasty boss abilities. Heck, just using intervene on cd will provide 20% shield wall uptime on the MT, and 40% enrage uptime for the additional 10% dmg boost.

I would love to see a build like this stay viable, though granted, it shouldn't output higher damage than fury/arms specs. I'd love to see it come slightly behind pure dps specs but have that extra utility of MT support and OT potential.


[Edit: Added enrage uptime for intervene used every cooldown.]

 

• Jamor

I am happy that this is the case, if it turns out to be true (which all things point to). It makes us more viable while not tanking. Moving away from the built-in threat to a more damage based threat system, seems to keep their line of "we want tanking to be more fun" -- big numbers are always more fun. Plus we are that much more viable questing, with DPS while tanking in 5 mans, DPS while not tanking in raids....it all looks good.

And even though I am only 71 on Beta -- tanking does actually feel much more fun. I didn't think they could pull it off, but they did.

EDIT: One side affect of this change, is that slower weapons for tanking become better -- I am guessing it's a lot closer to viable now, but with fast weapons still having an edge.

 

Branar

Yeah, agreed. It was silly when the arms/prot build spamming 1 second cooldown Improved Revenges was arguably a stronger boss-tanking build than most of the deep prot builds.

I think part of the issue here is that Wrecking Crew and Unending Fury both look horribly underbudget in their current states. Unending Fury is point-for-point worse than Focused Rage in its current state - I can't believe that's going to stay that way for very long. When those talents are improved I think Arms and Fury DPS will be a lot more competitive.

 

Orsier

What I don't understand is they wanted to do a great thing with gear uniformisation, but warriors still will have 3 different gears if we have to gem for hit on everything (and get items with more baseline hit on them) for fury, then "normal" gear for arms and tank gear for prot, which will still have a threat oriented and an avoidance oriented gears I guess. We're kind of screwed.

In the end, the wonderful "you have one gear for all (or at least 2) of your specs" doesn't work at all for warriors. We stil have to get 4 different gears if we want to be able to respec depending on what's needed in a raid.

That and the little fact that if I'm not mistaken, you'd need 22 gems +20hit to make up for the 15%, so you can even just count on the gems.

I really hope they'll come up with something else than this.

 

Darkrenown

If imp Spell Reflect is going to reflect spells cast on your party now I hope volley type spells become reflectable.

I don't see any problem with 0/30/41 being a good dps build, although it should be the best one. Warriors seem to be getting a bit of the DK tree design system, all trees get some nice dps and tanking talents, although prot has greater concentration of tanking talents.

 

Machinator

The problem with the TG change is that hit isnt 'just another stat' now as people seem to think. Even not counting the dps, missing hamstring in pvp will cost you games. Saving rage from missed specials doesnt count for much because it will probably just send you over 100 rage before its up again.
Also it was proven that specials do not use 1 table, so the effect it will have on crit % is unknown.

Its just solving the wrong problem, TG increases special DPS by extra stats and WW dmg, all the nerf to TG had to do was counter those and the extra white damage. Affecting specials just doesn't seem thought through.

I would suggest either:
Haste Penalty: -X% haste
White hit %: -X% to hit on normal swings
White Damage: -X% damage on normal swings

All are compatible with keeping plate armor useful for all, do not force warriors to stack one stat, and are less random.

Edit: I stand corrected on pummel not requiring a weapon.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Cardynal

I think the TG change is about the best possible negative effect they could have put in. It is VERY scalable, as higher raiding tiers will provide more +hit and many of the 2h's have large amounts of hit anyway. Any other change would be impossible to overcome with higher sets of gear. A static reduction of AP would always reduce your AP by that amount. X% slower swing speed would always be slower (unless of course you had an infinite amount of haste). The only thing that can be overcome is a stat that has a limit to it's effectiveness...and currently the only stat that has that is +hit.

The only other way I could see this implemented in a better way for warrior dps would be that the weapons would swing slower until you reached specific amounts of strength.

x=current str
y=strength requirement

x < y...melee attack speed reduced by 30%
x < y + 400 and x > y...melee attack speed reduced by 15%
x > y + 400...melee attack speed reduced by 0%

However, this would be a new game mechanic, and harder to implement than simply lowering the hit rate.

In the end..so what if warriors have to gear for +hit instead of +str. As long as the dps is greater than 1h weapons gemming for str, then the talent is worth the point.

 

Juelz

Pummel does not require a melee weapon, fyi

 

Gellor

Well it would appear that Hit Rating is on in significantly higher amounts on WoTLK than TBC, at least on some of the new 25 man Obsidian Sanctum drops any way:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...amas_25_21.jpg

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...amas_25_27.jpg

Also if you look at the 2nd item, Armour Pen is now rated rather than being a flat amount of ArP. I wonder what the rating requirement for 1% ArP is now.

 

Mild Confusion

Problem isn't just from a damage perspective, like Machinator, it also effects fury utility greatly, especially in pvp. Arena gear is designed around nearly eliminating the miss chance on special attacks. This change will mean that TG warriors will have a high chance of missing vital abilities such as hamstring. The recent change furious attacks will mean that warriors who go deep fury to pvp and simply skip TG will still be affected by the talent being ppm now. This change is bad for all styles of deep fury play, dps, off tanking, and pvp, with no clue yet if and how future gear will apply to titans grip.

Edit for pummel removal, brain fart.

 

Graul

I knew I saw a screenshot of the armor reduction being a rating, which is why I said the flat negative values seen on the 10 man Naxx gear didn't make much sense to me. As far as the hit goes, you would need seven pieces equivalent to that breastplate or at the very least have every single slot filled with some kind of hit rating. I fail to see how substituting AP, Crit, ArP, Expertise and Haste for more hit is going to make the "extra" stats on two-handed weapons actually that much better than on one-handed weapons. It looks like the primary advantage now will be the base weapon damage, and at ridiculous levels of AP, that's almost a non factor.

Hopefully there is an Unending Fury change that is going to impress us that they know about...