Cardynal

I'm a bit new to the warriors (leveling one for wrath) but how will skipping TG have a negative effect if you're using 1h weapons? And I do agree that it hurts pvp more than pve. The only thing I can think of would be that they're going to add pvp items (like rings/trinkets) that provide large amounts of +hit. The rogues are going to need this anyway to some extent.

 

Mild Confusion

Furious attacks was changed from being 100% chance of landing to a proc per minute. This was done so that a warrior cannot simply equip 2 fast daggers and place an MS debuff on every target in sight. If a warrior wishes to pvp as fury, skipping titans grip and using two 1h weapons will mean that he will have greater difficulty keeping the MS debuff on his target. Where if he takes titans grip, he gains a higher chance of proccing furious attacks, but loses melee special hit.

The worst part is that the talent does not specify between 1h weapons and dual wielding. Example, if you take titans grip, but equip a 1h weapon and a shield, will the 15% miss chance still be there? The tooltip doesn't specify. So if the 15% miss chance is always on, despite your weapon choice, it is a serious nerf (or oversight) to titans grip.

 

Gink

Is there anyone that can test if the new TG penalty is affecting Furys ability to off-tank, please?
Does our shield count as a weapon? (Does TG penalty give Shield Slam a -15% chance to hit?)

Looking at TG on WoWhead: TG

It looks to me like an aura that gives you the -15% hit when you have this talent, using 2x2h, or sword and board.
Can anyone test this?

Gink

 

Moogul

From what people have said (of it affecting bloodthirst), I suspect that currently when it says 'melee abilities that require a weapon', it basically means abilities which use the melee hit system, rather than the spell hit system (so it won't affect Taunt or similar).

Ijago <Casual Jerks>

 

Machinator

If possible could someone in beta test what is affected by the TG penalty? Im hearing all sorts of things, it affects BT, it doesnt affect BT, all specials or not.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Fellwraith

From an itembudget perspective, you're much better off having stats spent on multiple dps stats and gemming/enchanting for hit than having lots and lots of hit on items.

With the 30% higher base damage on 2h weapons and higher item budget, there needs to be some kind of a handicap on TG otherwise it scales too well for a 1 point talent at the end of a tree. 15% hit penalty is probably a bit too much (that's basically 492 rating you effectively lose by using this talent, you're not going to make that up with the current itemvalues on early gear), but they can always change the number to 5 or 10% before beta is final. I wouldn't expect this ability to go live without some kind of drawback to limit the scaling a bit.

I think the major problem with fury isn't TG. It's the lack of adequate dps talents before TG. You should want the 45-50 point talent in your tree over a 5-10 talent in another tree. Right now, that's not the case because unending fury is just a rage-efficiency talent.


I'll be surprised if 80% devastate goes live without some changes. In full dps gear, a tanking-focused protection warrior would be well ahead of a bear-focused feral druid in dps gear (ie without taking flurry or doing some of the fury/hybrid builds you guys are putting together). It also reinforces a dw-devastate build when they've said they want protection warriors to use a shield when they're dpsing.

 

Shha

BT doesnt require weapon to use, so looking at the wording it seems they specifically tried to make it NOT affect it.

And nope, the talent now is worse then with 20% haste debuff. At least back then it didnt take 51 points to take it. Right now id rather just skip fury talents and go with 27/44 build with trauma and weapon spec. TG effect on *swing* dps is in realm of 10% (that counts 5% from 2h spec). With axe spec you basically break almost even already on swings (its around 7% damage increase for typical stats - then your heroic strikes are at also having +15% hit...).

As for skills TG increases WW and Slam damage by around 30% , and has next to no effect on BT. With the 15% more chance to hit with 1handers, 7% more damage from axe spec that basically increases the 1h damage as well.

I dont know I just dont get WHY they changed TG. It was just fine with last builds - being balanced vs SD execute builds and such. I could see some nerf to warriors coming in form of another rage nerf (rage at 80 is getting out of hand quickly) - because situation where your OH alone basically supports rotation+ a large number of Heroic strikes is bad. But tampering with TG, when it already had competition from other builds... meh.

 

Cardynal

They had to put some sort of negative on TG as it was simply going to scale too well for 1 talent point. The only time i saw SD exe even with TG was on a level 1 dummy...hardly a fair test.

Was -15% hit too much? Maybe. -492 is a rather large amount.
Was hit a good area to target for the negative effect? I think so.

 

Shha

Then they can remove Unending Fury put TG back then with 5 points and give us a new 51-pointer. Fine with me, UF was a failure anyway. I dont think the whole "its just one point" argument is valid. The whole tree is weak now compared to arms/prot, and it was considered balanced before *because you use 2handers without a penalty*. Its like BM hunters at 70 have pretty crap tree overall, but its balanced by incredibly powerful haste buff near end of the tree - something that sort of "defines" their class.

 

levk

Couple of points.

"Gemming plate for hit" is all very cute in concept but it doesn't work. Hit is just another DPS stat as you say and getting to the yellow hit cap isn't something magical... Except the fact that until you do get there hit provides the highest DPS increase per item budget. So if there's neither leather nor plate that gets you to the hit cap you will wear what gets you closer and gem it. And that's leather. If there's leather that gets you there but not plate you will wear leather until there's plate that gets you to the hit cap. This isn't going to change unless they put Class: Rogue, Druid on every piece of leather.

Are you looking at the 1h itemization? Everything is itemized for the agi->ap classes. Going DW without TG might not be an option from the numbers standpoint since there're no weapons to support it. Basically either you don't take TG and have abundunce of hit or you take TG and don't have enough. 15% is just a gigantic number.

 

Fellwraith

Actually I don't think the hit rating penalty is the right solution for the scaling problem with TG. I think a damage penalty of 5-10% would make a lot more sense, even if we don't like the result on our Lichking endgame dps. It isn't nearly as heavy-handed on the earlier tiers of gear and it doesn't scale away with later tiers of gear like hit rating will.

If you think about it, 492 rating is a lot to overcome with Nax gear but much easier later in the expansion cycle. Once that hit-rating hurdle is overcome (via higher ilvl epic gems or smaller hit rating increases across every piece of gear), you're back to very good scaling with AP and other dps stats.

UF just needs to be rebuilt to do something different. I'd be surprised if Blizz wasn't aware of that. Shockwave, bladestorm and TG are the easy to identify abilities of this expansion, it makes a lot more sense for them to be capstone talents at the end of the trees.

 

Ambika

I just received my beta key this morning and going to transfer over my sunwell geared tank to the PVE realms (from a carebear server I know).


I have a few questions for those that are in the beta currently:

1. What would the be the first spec you would choose for a pure prot tank at 70 to switch to.
2. What would be the first set of quest items/gear you go for
3. Reliably speaking I heard my T6/Sunwell gear can last until mid to late 70s. Is this true?
4. Throw on DPS gear to tank are we still suffering rage problems?
5. Is money an issue with tanking? Do the mobs drop a decent amount of cash or should I slap on dps gear instead of mix of threat/prot gear to quest.
6. Are there certain groups or dungeons I should angel myself for in terms of attempting to tank right off the bat?


I'll have more questions when i start the copy over. Thanks for taking the time to answer.

 

levk

Most importantly borrow as much gold and mats as possible before copy and hold on to them until it copies.

 

Ambika

I'm a miner/JC. I'll have metric tons of stuff to bring along. Is there anything special from Outlands I should take along as a tank?

 

PSGarak

Whatever they end up doing, making it apply to Weapon-based attacks only is probably The Correct Answer as far as scaling goes (assuming they want to add some sort of penalty at all). TG gives you some damage upgrades from both white and yellow attacks, but it's the yellow attacks' change in which normalization they use that affects how a TG build scales with DPS stats. Adding any penalty to white damage (haste, hit, damage, whatever) will lower TG's scaling compared to a standard DW build. Adding it to Bloodthirst will as well, since it doesn't get the benefit of weapon damage. TG improves the damage, and the scaling with respect to any stat, of any normalized attack by 37.5% (3/8) from a DW build. If they think that scaling improvement is too much they can lower it with a 15% hit or 15% damage penalty or whatever, but if that penalty bleeds into other attacks that don't have this 3/8 bonus, you create negative scaling issues.

The New New TG is strictly superior to not taking TG, at any gear level, stat distribution, and rotation. Even with the hit penalty there is a strict increase in average whirlwind damage. TG doesn't make you suddenly need to stack hit because you're not losing any damage. You're gaining damage. You're also gaining the ability to get even more damage from hit than you would have previously. That may or may not mess up your whole gear preference, but what it does mean is that taking TG improves your absolute scaling with respect to every DPS stat (AP, STR, crit, hit, haste, and weapon damage). This is not to say that TG is especially good right now, it's not. I'm just saying that the presence of a new hit-cap neither makes the talent crap, nor devalues your character (in any long-term average sense) by picking up the talent, regardless of whether you gear for it or not.
You will prefer hit more than any other DPS stat, but a TG warrior also gets better AP, STR, and crit scaling than a non-TG warrior even at 0% hit, so it's no big deal if you can't obtain it. That may mean rogue leather is better for you, but you don't "need" to get rogue leather to hit cap, and sacking STR for AGI will probably be a DPS loss of you do so.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Mild Confusion

But doesn't that just compound the gear issue? TG warriors will be fighting even harder for the better itemized gear to close the gap and to stay competative on a dps level with the other classes. Instead of fixing 1 issue with a non-nerfed TG doing too much damage, they exchanged that for 2 issues with lack of hit on plate and needing more hit to compensate.

 

• Jamor

In answer to your first question. I have been playing around with different builds for when 3.0 hits, and I think I have settled on this (assuming they get Damage Shield working). I am debating between 3/3 puncture or 2/2 Imp Revenge and 1/3 puncture.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

In response to Question 4 -- you will notice a big jump in your numbers with some DPS gear on. I will probably be running most 5 mans with 1/2 - 2/3 DPS gear. Rage probably won't be much of an issue.

 

levk

What if they normalize instants based on 1h values? Is that worse?

 

Cardynal

And isn't it a possibility that they'll start adding more hit to plate? You cannot judge a talent based off of un-announced gear.

 

intervene

Damage Shield appears to be working when I just logged on, although the damage isn't being displayed. I had a mage punch me from behind until he was dead.

 

Rustik

On the topic of improved SPell reflect: I read it as a grounding totem effect that had a reflect, not as "Everyone in your party reflects one spell".

 

Machinator

The issue I see is not that TG is bad, it is that they nerfed it in the worst and most annoying way possible. If they did a haste or white damage nerf I doubt you would see so much about it. (outside the people who complain about all nerfs)



Its a possibility, but a pointless one since they wanted to combine sets instead of having each spec have their own drop. The only way to have that is if stats affect each class/spec by the same ballpark amount. If warriors max dps by stacking hit, blizzard failed at making general dps plate work.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Nite_Moogle

Penalty does not affect white attacks or Bloodthirst (nor Shield Slam for what that's worth). It affects Whirlwind and Slam most notably, but anything you can't do while disarmed is affected. Given that the damage increase going from a 1h to a 2h is approximately 20% and this penalty works out to WAY less than this it is pretty safe to say that going for TG is going to prove to be an improvement to DPS in all but the worst gear.

The plate itself doesn't have to be itemized for overkill amounts of hit; Arms is still going to want 9% and the difference can be made up in gemming and ring, neck, back slots.

 

Future

At this risk of sounding ignorant here, I'm tempted to find an answer to this question.
I realize itemization budgets on 2h weapons are much larger, as is the dps, but still.

In regards to comparisons between TG 2H DWing vs 1H DW fury, is the desparity so great?

Angry Dread
274-509 Damage
156.6 DPS
31 Agility (0.5% crit)
42 Stamina
Req LVL 80
Crit rating by 29 (0.63% crit)
Hit rating by 25 (0.76% hit)
Attack Power by 86.

The Jawbone
586-880 Damage
203.6 DPS
101 Strength
108 Stamina
Req LVL 80
Crit rating by 99 (2.16%)
Hit rating by 59 (1.80%)

Both of these weapons are coming from the 25 man version of naxx.
The side by side comparison here is done on purpose, so we could look at the total item budgets.

Lets consider the Stat contribution from these weapons to their respective playstyles.

DWing 2 Angry Dreads:
62 agility = 1% crit
58 Crit rating = 1.26% crit (totaling 2.26% crit)
50 Hit rating = 1.52 % hit
172 AP

DWing 2 Jawbones implies a TG penalty.
198 Crit rating --> 4.32% crit
118 Hit rating --> 3.6% hit
404 AP coming from 202 Strength


The itemization budget in a side-by-side comparison allows the 2h total to really dominate the 1h.
But lets factor in the newly "adjusted" miss rate

9% Special Attack Miss Rate
Hit needed to overcome: 9*32=284

24% Special Attack Miss rate
24*32=672


Gear Hit Sources:
Naxx 25 Chest - 100
Naxx 25 Boots - 73
Naxx 25 Ring - 28
Other Epic Ring - 23

1h Weapons - 50, which reaches the 284 cap
2h Weapons - 119, still short 492 hit rating from cap

At this point, you've reached your DW 1h special cap, while being 492 away from the 2h cap. (old news)

My first question considers the 492 HIT rating points becomes X budget itemization points:
Is there any scenario where these X budget points spent on DPS stats (AP, ArP, Crit, Expertise, ...)
where DW 1H still provides better DPS?

Another question:
17% offhand miss is countered by 17*32 = 544 Hit Rating.
Will gathering 544 HIT while DW 1h, negate ANY misses, genarating ridiculous amounts of rage and dps potential.
With never missing with 1h weapons, will you EVER outdps a TG 2h build, with the 544 Hit?

Consider at 544% hit, you're still not even capped on YELLOW attacks while TGing.
Without having the math to back it up, it seems even with the TG nerf, 1h fury is out forever?


*P.S. Disregard the wording side-by-side the formatting on the page wouldn't support it, so just read vertically.

 

Nite_Moogle

The only way you'd dual wield DPS is with some sort of hybrid build. If you have 50 in Fury the 51st point is a no-brainer in to TG.