Machinator

Thank you for actually using numbers.

First thing I notice is the huge difference in the abilities that use weapon damage vs BT.
TG vs 1H
WW: 157% more damage
Slam: 142%
BT: 109%

Assuming yellow is what they are trying to nerf, normalization of WW to 1H speed would bring TG to ~125% of 1H DW. Im not sure how normalizing slam would affect arms though. But I think reducing weapon damage while using TG would be a better and more intuitive way to nerf it.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Gink

I'm wondering if it would solve any talent budgeting issues if they made Titan's Grip have a bunch of pre requisites.
Say, a line that goes through the Fury tree starting with Deathwish? [edit]Or even Dual Wield Spec?

Deathwish -> Bloodthirst -> Rampage (or Bloodsurge) -> 5/5 Unending Fury -> Titan's Grip.

Would this in theory make it a more expensive talent budgetwise than it already is, allowing to remove (a part of) the penalty?

Gink

 

Darian_TruBlade

I have that problem now, but that's because I'm a T4 Warrior with odd gear choices and no Feral Druid. Even with the need for Hit I doubt we'll see that drastic a drop in our crit rates.

Crit simply isn't looking to be as important a stat as it was. There are miscellaneous benefits but they're mostly covered by our base crit. Flurry and Deep Wounds uptime should be extremely high with TG, and Impale is just cake icing. Only Blood Surge has any special increase from more crit. Most importantly, the two roll system diminishes the effectiveness of crit unless you up your hit. The once old and defunct adage "You can't crit what you can't hit" may be returning after a fashion.

It's also doubtful that all plate will look like that. Ret Paladins, Arms Warriors and a good number of DKs will balk if most plate focuses on Hit. If you want crit, you're going to be able to find it. It's more probable that we'll have problems getting the Hit we need.

 

Grymm

Well, I had forgotten to factor in the synergy between 2 hand spec being low in the arms tree and TG. It's a better talent than I originally gave it credit for. At least the hit penalty is a static "tax". Once you negate the 15% hit penalty through gear and gemming, you will resume scaling in ap/crit/haste as you would have before. It's definitely a blow to fresh 80s. Additionally, the nerf to wrecking crew is kind of a backhanded fury buff.

 

Machinator

Static taxes dont balance classes. It means either people are underpowerd or overpowered unless you are at some very specific point. See rage normalization.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Fellwraith

What happens if you run that same test with a more normal 4-5k AP that you'd have with those weapons? Higher AP values will show the difference to be small on a relative basis, but that's not really what you should be looking at.

We're talking about a big increase to base weapon damage and relative ilvl of items. You need to have everything on a common-size basis or else you aren't going to come up with the right conclusion. Using an inflated AP number is going to make it like comparing level 60 blue weapons while you're wearing Sunwell dps gear. Yea, weapons really don't make that much of a difference when you're using ones that are several tiers behind your other stuff.

 

Maledict

As they have explained, the last round of changes had nothing to do with the DPS classes are doing. It was entirely a pass aimed at either getting rid of talents that were broken and proving trickier to fix and talents that were simply too powerful for their cost, in relation to other talents. Titans Grip definitely falls under the last heading, so they now are experimenting with a penalty on it. They don't want a single talent that gives someone an 8% increase in DPS.

The actual DPS of classes has yet to be looked at, from what we have been told - they aren't comparing classes to each other and the baseline because they haven't finished establishing what works, what is too powerful, and what's fun.

 

Future

Wow.... Here's the S5 Arena Warrior Plate.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...00_warrior.jpg

Notice the 0 hit rating on the complete set.
I'll tell you, I for one will be using TG, and a full set of PVP gear, while I stand there and look pretty, because I sure won't be able to hit anyone or anything.

 

Cardynal

Has anyone ran tests to see if the miss rate applies to 1h weapons when you have TG? Or ran DPS tests to just see what kind of numbers you'll get if you have a 1h & a 2h equiped?

I'm thinking this could have pretty nice pvp uses of swapping to a 1h on the main hand to get specific abilities to land. Also, it would be better BT dps since you'd be using your off-hand for a stat booster, and your main hand would hit 15% more often if the debuff isn't applied to 1h weapons. I'm not sure that the increased BT DPS would be worth a lower WW & white dps.

 

Vinexia

Triggering a GCD to do a weapon swap to get another ability with a GCD a better chance to hit doesn't seem viable in a PvP environment where the difference between a win and a loss can be less then 3 seconds.

With the gear itemized as Future's screen shot, any build with a 24% base chance to miss and a PPM based MS effect is not going to be viable no matter the napkin math on theoretical dps.

Pvp'ers are going to want reliability in their abilities. "When I hit X button Y happens."
Last thing I would want to explain to my 2s partner is losing to a preventable RNG because of a spec choice.

 

Liar

I don't think the gear is properly itemized yet anyway. Just look at the head, chest and legs: Exact same stats and these are the first 3 items I generally check on screenshots because they have the exact same itembudget multiplier.

Also, the nerf to TG is pretty recent I'd say so I doubt we will see gear itemized to reflect it yet. Remember, gear is generally designed with talents in mind, not the other way around. Doesn't mean I didn't laugh at the huge discrepancy in the screenshot Ronnie linked a few posts above though; they really need to fix that or give us better modifiers so we can make do with what we get - which I don't see happening since Warriors could just cheat the system and wear leather/mail with their better talent modifiers. So yeah, fix the Plate itemization when you are done finalizing the talents please.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Cardynal

Well you don't have to swap it while you're attacking someone. Depending on the class you're fighting...you may want to be able to hit them more often or hit them harder. So you would simply swap the weapon before the charge. Or maybe it would prove better to just always use a 1h weapon for your main hand for pvp. I can just see where a 2h/2h would be better vs cloth and a 1h/2h would be better vs any melee dps.

 

Vinexia

Liar has hit the nail on the head pretty good here.
I think we are going to see a good mix of items available based on the talents. At least enough to make the spec viable and fun. If there are not enough items in the game to support a spec then Blizz can ALWAYS add more items. Blacksmithing is a bottomless pit for epic patterns. They can add as many as they want.

Also on the subject of warriors in leather/mail: At this point it seems they have a very critical eye on itemization for this x-pac. The consolidation of stats would lead us to believe they want plate wearers in plate, leather in leather and mail in mail. I wouldn't believe for a second that three classes having access to two or three times as much gear as all viable options is balanced system. Blizz is going to make you want your plate pieces.

 

levk

Well what would you absolutely need to hit with anyway? Pummel and hamstring. Someone quoted some blue saying that the non-damaging abilities won't be affected by the penalty (whether it affects now or not.) And hamstring and pummel won't do damage.

Regardless though weapon swap is not a solution ever, try leveling a warrior to like 25, when all you have for interrupt is shield bash. You want to dual wield, but if you want to interrupt you just have to wear a shield at all times, trying to swap in combat for interrupt you'll never make it with the gcd. And those two (hamstring and pummel) are pretty important regardless of what you're fighting. Piercing howl will have laughable duration with all the reductions classes have.

I think whatever the penalty they decide on should only apply if you're offhanding a 2h weapon because that's really the meat of where scaling comes in compared to not having TG.

 

Moogul

Really? I was under the impression that chest, helm and legs shared a 1.0 itembudget multiplier.

For reference, view these 3 mail quest rewards from Hellfire:

[Battle Scarred Leggings]
[Legionnaire's Studded Helm]
[Scale Brand Breastplate]

Same iLevel (81), identical stats.

Edit: Oh, actually I think I misunderstood your point, sorry.

Ijago <Casual Jerks>

 

Graul

Not really sure what you're talking about. I factored in the weapon damage and both of them were the same ilvl epic boe smithed. If anything, the stats gained on the two-handed weapons would favor TG very briefly, but Blizzard "counterbalanced" the talent for reasons no one really knows other than some long term scaling issue that we have yet to see. I used 8k AP as an exaggerated figure simply because most of your stats come from the rest of your gear and raid buffs, your weapons make up a very small portion overall. From the weapons I used, you gain 660 AP from 2x2h and 338 from 2x1h. Yes, short term that favors TG but as I said that extra 322 is only a fraction of your overall AP, and someone else in the beta reported being close to 6k already in Naxx.

As for "real world" examples, here are two on everyone's favorite mob to hate...the Blasted lands servant. Reason to use this is because I wanted to see what TG would have been like before it's recent nerf at 70 and there really are no dummies to test this on. I couldn't really use the lvl 80 version, and these are lvl 55. Yes I know you can parry and skew the DPS a little, yes I know these have lower armor (and that Devastate might make them end up with 0) and yes, I know you're getting bonus rage from being hit, but I'm just counting that as all of the area of effect damage from Sunwell. I've also assumed that Enrage works on those same area off effect abilities too, and tried to give TG every advantage that I could. I shudder to think what the results would have been on a lvl 70 dummy...

~9 minutes straight, a little less with the Protection build because I did not bring potions and did not feel like dying to prove a point. The DPS was pretty static anyway, so another minute would not have changed anything.

Bloodrage and Berserker Rage were used everytime they were up on a free GCD, Death Wish was used everytime it was up and Bloodthirst was prioritized over WW if both were going to end up ready at the same time.

TG stats (Cat's MH with Exec, Blade of Harbingers OH with Savagery):

10.08% haste
36.53% crit
2860 AP
17/25 Expertise
14.92% hit
23% ArP (yes, it's a rating now)

Build: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12052120501301

DPS: 1949
Screenshot of recount:

Protection (15/5/41) stats (Warglaive MH with Exec, Mounting OH with Potency):
6.72% haste
2492 AP
35.22% crit
13.25% hit
20% ArP
23/23 Exp

Build: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

DPS:1930
Screenshot of recount:

Now going to see what 15/46 looks like.

 

Gellor

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Feels like blue is dodgeing us.

It appears that the 15% miss chance is supposed to apply to BT.

 

levk

The rogue set has no hit on it either...

 

Grymm

I think it's worth noting on your comparison that a your 15/5/41 build can either add deep prot talents (shockwave, sword and board, critical block) with your 71-80 talent points and not gain much dps or grab a weapon spec or some fury points. The first option is more of a tanking build and the second becomes more of a strange hybrid with slightly higher non-tanking dps. Also, in your experiment the imp def aura was probably up 100% of the time. In a raid environment, it would not be if you were wearing that gear and DPSing.

The fury build, on the other hand, is going to add impale, deep wounds, and 2 hand spec which are each an increase of about 5% dps (15% total) while speccing out of incite (?? dps gain). So, for farming, a fury warrior should out perform a tank or prot hydbrid by a bit. As raid dps, the fury warrior should pull further ahead because the prot warrior doesn't have the 10% buff.

So, while that experiment makes it look like they are comparable, I don't think they will be as close at level 80. Prot farming DPS should be much higher than what is has been though which most prot warriors should enjoy.

 

Zerai

Let's hope that set is not finalized. If you put hit gems in every slot (using mixed gems to get the socket bonuses) you only get +120 hit rating (top purple gem I saw was 20 hit rating, Rigid King's Amber). If you ignore the socket bonuses, you still only get 180 hit. 15% is just a huge wall.

 

Graul

I didn't take Imp Def Stance, yet had Enrage up the majority of the time with the TG build. And yes, I know the TG spec would end up being able to get 2hWS Impale and DW at 80, but it comes with the -15% penalty where the test above does not. Like I said, this test was simply to see what it would have been like before the nerf, and I gave TG every advantage in this situation. 0/30/41 will most likely be the strongest build if things remain the same (which I'm just going to assume they aren't). I just tried out 15/46 and it's behind the Protection build...at 1553 DPS.

 

Exiliad

Whilst your argument is not flawed, I'm not sure what the purpose of it is. Your test is in no way correlated to what Blizzard feels needs to be done with TG.

The appropriate test would be what percent boost the single talent point of TG gives to the fury spec (with all but TG). Their position is that they don't want a single talent point to provide such an enormous dps jump.

As the devs have stated many times, they haven't reached the phase of tuning numbers for different specs/classes to put them in line with each other. So comparing prot with fury is inconsequential to the future of TG (though very informative to the tuning process I just referred to).

 

Arantar

With the changes to Titan's Grip, and with the numbers of Graul in mind, how much would it add if made a 25/46 build, where you pick up Sword Specialization in Arms and utilizing two one-handed swords - possibly even a fast in the off-hand for more procs?

I'm mainly interested in the raw damage output that would add, but if there has been any other (recent) math on this, I'd be very interested in this as well.

 

Gink

Sword Spec has a 6 second cooldown now, so a fast off-hand won't help getting more extra attacks.

Edit: Ok I worded that badly. It might help you proc faster, but overall I think a slow off-hand is going to be preferred at 80 for the same reasons it's preferred at 70.

Edit 2: Also, wasn't there some tests done ages ago that concluded that an off-hand sword proc would give the extra attack to your off-hand?
Or am I remembering that wrong?

Gink

 

Arantar

I'm pretty sure that whenever the off-hand procs an extra swing, it's the mainhand that receives that swing.

I totally missed the cooldown of Sword Specialization though, I thought they had removed it. But it doesn't necessarily have to be Swords, it could be Axes or Maces as well. Axes would give another 5% critical strike chance, as well as some more critical strike damage.

It was just the idea of using only one-handers and then get some extra gain out of the specializations available in Arms.