WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 79

Gruntle · 09/15/08, 4:02 AM

Originally Posted by Malloron

About the 15% miss chance

I have been following this thread, but I would like to ask to bring some clarification about the 15% reduced hit chance on specials.

Does this mean 15% reduction in the base miss chance? So: hitting a mob of your level means you have a flat 15% + 5% = 20% misschance, and a 24% misschance on specials vs. bosses?

Granted we havent seen the WotLK gear yet, but with only 3% from talents, this would in BC mean:

21 X 15.76 = 330.96 => 331 hitrating to SOFTCAP?

If the 15% is "instead of" the base 5% misschance, we'll have 19 - 3 from talents:

16 X 15.76 = 252.16 =< 252 hitrating to softcap?

Im confused because I find it hard to get a decent setup with enough +hit that doesnt nerf my other stats as it is.

From what I've read it is an added 15% miss chance, so 24% in total. Seems likely this is the case, haven't seen anyone arguing that it's only 15%.

You will be hard pressed to reach 331 hit rating in TBC without going all out on leather, in WoTLK it should be better (although I'm sure there are people who thinks it won't be) in terms of hit plate and hit on weapons. If you look at the gear that's been found so far it seems that there is quite a lot of hit on it.

However, you (and others) are reasoning a bit incorrectly about "nerfing my other stats". Adding hit at the expense of other stats might increase your dps with TG (I'd still like to try this in a spreadsheet), hit is just a lot more valuable when you have TG. This means that you should perhaps not worry about if your crit drops below 30% (or whatnot) if that gives you a hefty increase in hit. Stat weighting changes considerably with TG. Still, even with 100ish hit you should see good dps increase when getting TG (I think most would agree with this anyway, the discussion is mainly if the dps increase is good enough compared to other specs/classes).

mefe4r · 09/15/08, 4:09 AM

Doesn't work for me, the little addons button doesn't even show up on the char screen. Dunno maybe im bugged.

hellord · 09/15/08, 4:43 AM

Originally Posted by aftereffect

I'm not sure, I think due to cleave costing 15 rage from unending fury and the cleave glyph reducing its cost by 5 again to 10, and incite effecting it, wouldn't that be the better course? since imp cleave is 488 and HS is 495

But I was thinking this for a DW 1h Fury: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12253120501050

HS crit with 3/3 imp hs will cost 2 rage with the glyph. Imp cleave is a 2 pt talent and u need the 5/5 UF talent that actually is not worth at all. So unless you are threat capped or you have 2 targets there is no need to use cleave against HS.
An imp HS with incite build is possible for fury, arms and prot dps builds with dual 1handers build favoured (since the base damage is applied statically to every hit) but is a great talent in general for any build which need some offtanking.

The only problem is for arms that should sacrifice 5/5 commanding presence to get incite, so unless u have a fury in raid or BoM will be equal to BS+25% (thing that i'm not aware of atm) heroic strike will be a good boost to dps converting next white attack into a yellow one (thus removing chance to glance) and with 15% crit you'll prolly sit around 50% chance to make it very rage efficient (with a 1h the rage NOT generated is lower technically decreasing its cost).

EDIT: About TG
It's a nerf compared to NOT having 15% miss, but we can't really talk about a nerf in therms of DPS as many already stated. The shift in favour of hit is still questionable, but since it will raise BOTH white and yellow damage it could result in a no-brain choice: regemming for hit.
Anyway without a spreadsheet it's very hard to compare and surely won't follow Blizzard's rule of homegeneization of gear, since fury wil prolly get most benefits from hit than any other class especially compared to other plate users.
So once you establish how much is worth a point of hit compared to AP/crit (even considering flurry/rampage uptime) it is possible to understand if the higher item budget of 2x2h is worth the penalty.
About scaling I agree that there is no difference between 1h and 2h on AP scaling, but crit will scale a bit better and hit will scale (till cap) insanely better. Once you reach the softcap you are nearly close to a hard hit cap, prolly only missing 2-3% hit on white damage and results can be dramatically good

Darmon · 09/15/08, 4:45 AM

There are some very good reasons why TG can't stay as 15% miss chance.
First is tanking with TG. A 27%+ miss chance vs a boss means fury warriors have not place as either raid OT, or 5 man MT, and that is against what blizzard wants with all warriors beeing capable tanks.
Second is arena PvP, where TG again has no place because s4 has not enough hit rating. Fury is ment to be a viable pvp spec, and there is no place for the current TG penalty in it.

hellord · 09/15/08, 5:02 AM

Originally Posted by Darmon

There are some very good reasons why TG can't stay as 15% miss chance.
First is tanking with TG. A 27%+ miss chance vs a boss means fury warriors have not place as either raid OT, or 5 man MT, and that is against what blizzard wants with all warriors beeing capable tanks.
Second is arena PvP, where TG again has no place because s4 has not enough hit rating. Fury is ment to be a viable pvp spec, and there is no place for the current TG penalty in it.

This doesnt mean you aren't capable of tanking, but that you aren't capable of tanking a boss with a 2h. If the malus applies to 1h/shield too it's prolly to be fixed as it shouldnt be intended as a nerf to tanking abilities, anyway i doubt an OT should tank a boss class NPC.
About arena, except you are comparing non Wotlk weapons, I partly agree with you that would be even more randomness than current mace spec proc.

Darmon · 09/15/08, 5:21 AM

Before i was against the ideea of sword&board applying a buff just to 1h+shield prot warriors, as it is unreasonable to affect one single aspect of the warrior gameplay, and the same stands with TG and tanking as fury. If you are fury and you spec TG, tanking with 1h+shield because 2h+shield is a masive TPS drop is a very big failure of talent design, especially for a 51 talent point.

mefe4r · 09/15/08, 5:43 AM

ARMS PVE DPS PTR:

Well I'd thought I would try something pretty retarded for arms since it made sense in my mind and look what turned up.

ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot091508042723op7.jpg

As of now I do not know how accurate the mod is, recount wouldn't work so this is what I found.

My current spec is arms 54/5/2 Axe spec with Imp blood rage.

During the 6 minute parse all I had was the enhance shammy buffs and I did NOT have the blood lust during the 6 mins either. I kept bloodrage, berserkers call, blood fury and recklessness on CD for that time. My crit with full procs would go up near 50% and if I could've found a fury warrior I would have had 5% more crit.

I have a tanking ring, cloak, 2x 1.6 speed tanking weapons which you can probably identify by the icons with mongoose on each of them. I basically auto attacked waiting for Sudden death to proc and if I was unlucky with it I used whirlwind to try and make it proc.

Make what you want of this data, this is just my explanation to what may be the most stupifying way of arms dpsing to top the charts. I might try respeccing to get unbridled wrath to see if it makes a difference.

Anyway try Arms pve spec with 2 fast 1h axes spamming execute with high amounts of crit and see if you guys get similar numbers because this might be the new way of dpsing sadly.

Oh yea here is my stats on the character sheet.
ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot091508044622qp6.jpg

acx · 09/15/08, 6:07 AM

From my limited testing, thunderclap, sunder armor, shield slam, and shield bash do not appear to be affected by the extra 15% miss on specials. I did not test revenge as dummies dont swing back.

Liar · 09/15/08, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by hellord

This doesnt mean you aren't capable of tanking, but that you aren't capable of tanking a boss with a 2h. If the malus applies to 1h/shield too it's prolly to be fixed as it shouldnt be intended as a nerf to tanking abilities, anyway i doubt an OT should tank a boss class NPC.
About arena, except you are comparing non Wotlk weapons, I partly agree with you that would be even more randomness than current mace spec proc.

That goes against everything Blizzard tried to do this expansion. They want tank builds to do competitive DPS in relation to DPS builds just like they want DPS builds to tank competitively with tank specs.

Originally Posted by Fellwraith

Warbringer and imp charge make rage generation somewhat irrelevant, even with partial tank gear on. You start off most fights with 35 rage (25 from the charge, 10 from your swing), which should be enough of a headstart to kill a non-elite. Sword and board also really changes your rotation and your rage profile. It procs often enough to make it a net rage gain for you (as you'll be auto attacking again soon and the proc'd slam doesn't cost any rage for that GCD). It wasn't uncommon for me to be heroic striking mobs because I had too much rage to spend on just my GCDs. Yea, this isn't a raiding spec, but it's good enough for leveling I think.

I don't really think that Warbringer and Imp Charge is a good argument. DW Devastate can spec that as well which voids that advantage. Really, on live, the only thing holding me back from doing even more DPS while grinding is my Intercept/Charge cooldown because I have to run between mobs alot. In the Beta, rage is the problem. 1h/Shield does not generate enough rage because it's too defensive (and you use 4 set T6 on top of it) and lacks the rage generation of your OH. But assuming we let that argument slide, exactly how is a 1h/Shield build going to outdamage a DW Devastate setup in raids where you DPS one mob for a long time? They need to fix average rage generation for that setup, not just frontload it with our Charge.

I'll make sure to try the 4 set bonus but I am quite doubtful if that is more DPS in the end. SS is only one part of our DPS rotation after all and it's probably going to work out much akin to BV not being our best threat stat because it only affects SS damage (Str effects everything after all, not to mention expertise and hit).

Greysir · 09/15/08, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by mokg

Has anyone been testing level 70 3.0 specs? I tested several last night with 52/9/0 2h battle stance arms coming out on top. Was peaking at 2.3+k and sustaining 2.1-2.2k over several minutes on the ?? test dummy's. Titan's grip was actually the worst dps spec for me(using s3 mace+soul cleaver), getting beat by 51 prot.

It appears as the test dummy's have 0 armor which may be skewing results along with raid buffs generally scaling better while dual wielding.

mokg, I'm curious. Did you try something similar to a live build? 17/44-ish with points shuffled a bit? I see you have dual-warglaives, so curious how it stacks up compared to the 51+ builds.

What levels of dps were you seeing on the target dummy with TG and prot?

hellord · 09/15/08, 7:45 AM

@ Liar
You are right about what Blizzard would like, but they also talk about gear homogeneization while the made fury the most reliant build on hit. The competitive tanking abilities for fury would be the high scaling TC, flurry and enrage and they would need to eventually fix the miss chance when using a single 2h and a shield. In therms of dps a +30 base damge is still a dps upgrade with a 15% miss penality.

What is really interesting to understand is if the TG miss chance applies to revenge too... even if the skill requires a melee weapon i think developers do no intend to make it penalized like dpsing abilities.

We are at a point where we have to wait for a fury build tanking test.
Nothing tells me they'll SURELY fix some of the issues, instead i want to remember the endless rage build in TBC.. do you know anyone who wanted that talent for any spec? i think i didnt find it useful even when i was completely rage starved at entry level, and afaik nothing changed until now and Arms spec is a cookiecutter.

Let's hope for some balancing countermeasure since if they find that SS-tc spam is good enough for fury threat when tanking they'll never bother fixing it.

mokg · 09/15/08, 8:09 AM

Tried a 16/45 build and it was averaging 1950ish. Just realized that you can avoid parries standing in certain spots of the dummy(was getting chain parries on all other tests, going to retest each spec now. As for prot/TG I was getting around 1700-1800 as prot and 1600-1700ish as TG(only have s3/soul cleaver for TG which may contribute to the dps being so low)

Here is a screenshot of me dps'ing as 53/8/0 arms over several minutes with an enh shaman+ret paladin(I was already dps'ing for a good 2-3 minutes before I was invited to the group, so my dps is a little lower then what it would have been). Also appears as the shaman disconnected part way through, not sure when he did.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6...daxearmkz1.jpg

• landsoul · 09/15/08, 8:33 AM

I'm a few items from the hit cap for specials with titan's grip with a draenei in the raid (1% hit). I think its about 657 hit rating. My crit will be like 22% in zerker, It's not that bad I don't think.

aftereffect · 09/15/08, 9:02 AM

Originally Posted by hellord

HS crit with 3/3 imp hs will cost 2 rage with the glyph. Imp cleave is a 2 pt talent and u need the 5/5 UF talent that actually is not worth at all. So unless you are threat capped or you have 2 targets there is no need to use cleave against HS.

Isnt UF worth it since it does BT and WW too? and the difference between 3/5 and 5/5 imp BS its 55 AP. With Incite you'll crit what every 2 HS's but that leaves it up to the RNG

hellord · 09/15/08, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by aftereffect

Isnt UF worth it since it does BT and WW too? and the difference between 3/5 and 5/5 imp BS its 55 AP. With Incite you'll crit what every 2 HS's but that leaves it up to the RNG

55 raidwide is probably better than 10% crit on HS if you don't have BoM and/or another fury warrior in raid.
UF is not worth that much since rage shouldn't be the issue and seems it isnt fixed (tooltip shows the bt cd refresh from enraged assault that has been changed). Since i'm not in beta i can't confirm this, but all the comments on UF are that the talent itself is weak for a 10 tier.

EDIT: Anybody from beta can give hints about deep wounds? It now lasts 6 seconds, does it mean only 2 ticks? and has it been fixed or still jumps first tick on <3s crits?

aftereffect · 09/15/08, 10:34 AM

I pulled together a set of gear from naxx, could you guys tell me if the numbers would make TG that good?

Im not sure what the base STR or AGI Value is, so this would be purely Gear, not raid buffed with scaling buffs or what have you from the raid. So I'm going to assume 300 str and 200 AGI base for a human at 80. See bottom of the post for links to items and gems and meta and enchants.

Combat Ratings for level 80 Deciphered in WotLK Beta | Spooncraft

Thats for the ratings per % I used.

STR:1092 = 300 + 784(Gear and Gems) + 8(stats to chest)
AGI:388 =200+ 144(Gear) + 44(Enchants)
Crit:32.7%= 7%(5% base 2% agi) + 5%(Cruelty) + 5%(Rampage) + 722/45.8(Gear)
Hit: 15.27 = 434/32.7 +3%(Precision)
Exp:7.8% = 190/32.7 + 2% -dodge(Weapon Mastery)
ArP: = 86 Rating

AP: 3749 =2184(Str) + 294(Gear) + 180 (2x Greater Sav) + 56(Enchants) + 10% (Imp Zerker) + 687 (imp BS)

2x 3.6 speed, 203.6 DPS 586-880 Damage Maces.

Helm, Shoulders, Legs, Gloves, Chest:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...arrior_dps.jpg -Armor
Profession - Enchanting -Enchants
Profession - Jewelcrafting -Gems

Waist:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...mas_25_110.jpg

Neck:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...amas_25_61.jpg

Rings:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...amas_25_24.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...amas_25_62.jpg

Weapons:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...5_loot_001.jpg
Profession - Enchanting -Enchants

Cloak:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...0_loot_108.jpg
Profession - Enchanting -Enchants

Boots:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...amas_25_27.jpg
Profession - Enchanting -Enchants

Trinkets:
None.

Ranged Weapon:
None.

Spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12253120501051

Liar · 09/15/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

I'm a few items from the hit cap for specials with titan's grip with a draenei in the raid (1% hit). I think its about 657 hit rating. My crit will be like 22% in zerker, It's not that bad I don't think.

I am not much of a Fury guy, but I always considered Fury the "crit tree". Because so much stuff triggers from critting like Flurry, Rampage and now Bloodsurge. I assume these stats are raiding stats since you said you had a Draenei, so isn't 22% crit really low raid buffed? I'd be surprise if you can keep up Flurry like this, especially we can't spamstring anymore.

Ambika · 09/15/08, 11:19 AM

Note: I was in BT/Sunwell full tanking set. No threat/tps/dps gear.

I logged into northrend and was immediately wowed by the content level of the zone. Very lush, very yukon/northern like. It's very pretty. I saw my mods were all broke, took 2hrs to fix them while servers melted and then Respec'd deep down in the prot tree to 51. Started off in def stance and charged a mob.

My first mob Fu_TopScore said "2500 Shield Slam Record" figured it was a fluke. Next hit 2100, sword and board proc'd crit'd' over 3k. I was floored as the mob died. I looked at my Hud to see if I lost all my rage, nope still sitting at 1/3 rage left. I charged another mob and proceeded to beat it down senselessly using Devastate, Thunderclap and SHOCKWAVE (love the animation).

My next thought was "If a pally can do it, my gear can hack it, let's roll" and I swapped out a trinket for the Spyglass of the HIdden fleet. Picked up 4 mobs and beat them all down and mashed the Spyglass to regen the little health I lost.

Now these are all starting mobs. Once I moved into the upper zones I couldn't pull an elite+3mobs, ya I died there quite a bit testing it out.

The new mechanics giving us rage when we dodge and parry are excellent. I'm constantly packing on rage and stunning stuff and then running out and charging back in. Great way to keep rage flowing. That 2 pts in improved charge will pay off I can see that already.

Overall if you were worried that you'll be rage starved and need to throw in DPS gear to do quests fret not. I completed most of northrend in defensive stance with full tanking gear on. Just swap out more BV gear and you'll be good to go!

I will repost more when I get a chance to tank an instance. Looking forward to trying it out with my guildies.

dr_AllCOM3 · 09/15/08, 11:32 AM

Actually leveling with Prot spec and sword/board is the best right now. Killspeed is almost the same and not having to rest, you lose quite a lot of hp to mobs as Arms/Fury, makes it superior. The BT faction trinket is nice, since you get more SS than intended. Additionally you don't have problems with group quests, you never die while running around and instances are a breeze, also tanks are as rare as before.
Killing mobs one by one is faster than ae. I just do it to have more rage.

• Jamor · 09/15/08, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ambika

The new mechanics giving us rage when we dodge and parry are excellent. I'm constantly packing on rage and stunning stuff and then running out and charging back in. Great way to keep rage flowing. That 2 pts in improved charge will pay off I can see that already.

Overall if you were worried that you'll be rage starved and need to throw in DPS gear to do quests fret not. I completed most of northrend in defensive stance with full tanking gear on. Just swap out more BV gear and you'll be good to go!

I will repost more when I get a chance to tank an instance. Looking forward to trying it out with my guildies.

Did I miss something about new mechanics giving rage on parry and dodge? Didn't they get rid of that in favor of 10% more damage with Imp Def. Stance?

Dots · 09/15/08, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Actually leveling with Prot spec and sword/board is the best right now. Killspeed is almost the same and not having to rest, you lose quite a lot of hp to mobs as Arms/Fury, makes it superior. The BT faction trinket is nice, since you get more SS than intended. Additionally you don't have problems with group quests, you never die while running around and instances are a breeze, also tanks are as rare as before.
Killing mobs one by one is faster than ae. I just do it to have more rage.

I disagree on the resting part, I leveled from 70-76 as TG fury without using a single bandage and rarely had to use one on the way to 77. That was actually still with the old speed penalty TG, using mostly BT gear and some PvP pieces. Bloodthirst pretty much keeps you up on its own.
Cant comment for levels 78-80 because that was with no penalty on TG.

Liar · 09/15/08, 11:53 AM

General rule of thumb: If you got good Fury gear (good as in nice hit/crit ratings) go with that because Bloodthirst alone will keep your downtime at 0. Prot didn't start outdamaging a Fury build for me until my ratings declined so much that it was hard to hit or crit mobs at around level 75-76.

Keep in mind, that part of the reason why Prot is good is because of our static +15% crit on basically all our moves which obviously do not decay by leveling up as ratings would.

• Gink · 09/15/08, 12:09 PM

EDIT: Anybody from beta can give hints about deep wounds? It now lasts 6 seconds, does it mean only 2 ticks? and has it been fixed or still jumps first tick on <3s crits?

It's one tick per second now.

ioguolo · 09/15/08, 1:24 PM

Not to divert form the TG discussion, but has anyone been able to confirm what Illidan shear has been changed to?

• landsoul · 09/15/08, 1:25 PM

Horn, kings, mark, etc my agi goes up so my crit goes up to like 28% its not bad at all. Two-roll system really hurts crit rate of specials too so an increase in hit will yeild also remove a decrease in crit chance. Sorry for the bad grammar Blurb