Writhe

Is having one fewer stats on a piece a big deal if the primary stat has been altered to make the piece relatively equal to its leather counterparts? Of course this still raises issue with tanking but I think any change to dps plate budgeting will incur a tank alteration. I just wish they did something like this while they had a good chance. (while altering all the gear/talents/tank classes around the new strength numbers)



Jackkills:
mmochampion lists 3% armor pen per talent point (max 5 for 15%) in mace spec.

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

DarthGreg

If it's balanced right, it's not a problem.

 

Frederic

Why not agility rebalancing baked into deep fury and deep arms talents? Something along the lines of 1% crit + 1% hit per ~40 agility for Fury,and improving the Agi:Crit conversion to 25:1 for Arms. At which point plate could be itemized for Str + Agi + Combat Rating (or multiple ratings, to keep it in line with leather / mail).

EDITED:

Back more on topic: Having done a little number-crunching, it appears that the Titan's Grip hit penalty is designed to account for the extra stats on two-handers. 7.5% hit is worth the entire stat allocation of a iLevel 168 two-hander assuming it only has hit rating on it, and two-handers have an approximately 2.3 times greater allocation of stats in terms of point value. Is it possible that two-handed weapons will be loaded mostly with hit and that's where we will be expected to recover the TG hit loss? It makes sense from a designer's standpoint, as the DW two-handers mechanic is something we don't share with paladins.

 

Darmon

While waiting for PTR char copy, i checked some of the skills from trainer. There are a few changes that i didn't saw mentioned around.
Shield Block has no rage cost.
Shield Bash was knew to have only 1 rank and no dmg, but does not mention daze anymore.
Sunder Armor lasts until cancelled.

So far only the daze seems to be a loss, because it is the only way a warrior can use the extra dmg from HS.

 

Borodin

As far as I am concerned rage on Dodge/Parry never made it into the build yet. I watch this very closely and from memory here's how it broke down:

Stalwart Protector talent granted 2 rage per Dodge/Parry
Talent removed, Justified Killings appears 17 points into Arms instead
Ghostcrawler says "we are considering baking that rage into the class design"
Ghostcrawler says "we are still considering giving you the rage back"

But nothing ever appeared in the talents or patch notes, instead of more rage our damage went up again with things like Damage Shield and big improvements to S&B. More talents merged. Instead we got more efficiency it seems.

 

Gink

I'm not quite sure I know what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?

Gink

 

Darkrenown

Is it too hard to look at any Wrath info site?
mace spec - Wowhead Search

 

Darmon

Just checked on PTR, and it's a tooltip bug. The tooltip states that the sunder debuff lasts till canceled. But on debuff list of a target, SA dissapear as normal, after 30 sec.

 

Hisstok

Well if blizzard really wants it to refresh an attack, why not make it refresh victory rush?

Anyways, has the math been done as to the new armor pen yet? It works on a percentage system but its not clear how much is needed for it to be worth its itemization points and/or what the cap is (as it should be the same for high and low armor targets now)

 

levk

Why would you want to go into arms when you can grab incite? Something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

 

Bogeyman

Having a couple hours under my belt now on EU beta as Fury TG and I still can't get used to missing specials. Having been hit capped on yellows for so long it's just very wierd seeing misses all of the time.

Before finishing raiding a few months back I was slow/slow with 100-120 hit rating on live and it could be a little spikey outside of raids, but on beta with TG it can be even more exaggerated. I've found rage abundant pretty much as soon as combat starts barring an unlucky start and have more than enough for a rotation, though I'm not using many heroics. I like the new version of rampage as I've always found it a unnecessarily awkward to keep up. Bloodthirsts healing component is much improved and has meant that the only time I've needed to bandage so far was after some nasty lag.
Bloodsurge gives you a more interesting button to push than rampage did, thought I forgot about it totally for the first half hour or so, and can help to break up the waiting for ww/bt cooldowns.

I'm currently using Twinblade & Gorehowl OH around 2250 AP with shout and 35ish% crit with rampage, but I only have around 100 hit and that is what seems to be causing problems. Missing a bt or ww and getting regular white hits and the damage can be very mediocre, a string of crits and mobs die in the duration of an intercept stun. Rather than having solid damage with high spikes as it was more with 2x1h, TG seems like a bit of a damage lottery with low hit, but overall I'm liking it and having dual 2h weapons is undoubtedly looks very cool. Heroic Leap is also good fun, increasing your mobility when intercept is on CD, though it did take some getting used to, I manage to leap off of a cliff thinking it worked like intercept.

 

Grymm

When 3.0 hits, I'll probably go TG for a bit. I should be able to hit cap specials against same level mobs pretty easily. I have raided with over 270 hit rating in the past. I am worried that it'll be annoying to level with though. I won't be replacing gear until my upper 70s and by that point I'll probably be missing 8% of my specials.

 

ManatArms

Suprising myself, i had much more fun as prot then fury when i finally copied over to PTR.

Though it was only on the dummies, i still saw Dev crits as high as 1200 and Shield Slams up to 4500; with constant 2500's on the SS. Even though the instance servers were down, i have a good feeling that i'll have a much easier time controlling loose mobs and holding aggro on more.

 

Darmon

Shockwave goes to 2k crits, same with CB. While i didn't tested long enough, prot sustained dps did not went up much. I got around 1.2k, compaired to live 1k. But what feels changed a lot is the ability to burst dps. Try activate recklesness, and the 3 crit attaks CB + SW + SS (make a macro to activate shield block before SS). That gives me an ideea to check if AP trinket ( Berserker's call) can be activated same time with autoblocker. That should give a burst of around 10k in 4.5 sec, which is not bad.

Just tested the situation in ptr, the 2 trinkets do stack. I was in pvp gear, full guardian, 2s4,1s3,1s2, badge fist+illidan shield. Just battle shout and 5 sunders on test dummy. CB - 4322. SW - 5628. SS - 4618. Only problem was going def stance for shield block. All i can say is that now Protection puts the P in Pain.

 

Darian_TruBlade

Force of habit I suppose. If you're aiming to go into Arms at 80, one's natural inclination is to look first to Arms as the sub-spec tree.

That said, I'll have to try out that Incite build, though it might be a while. The PTR was swamped last night as people finally got their character copies in, resulting in horrible lag. It'll be at least a week before everyone has their chance to exhaust their interest in the shiny talents enough to return things to a viable testing level.

While Incite is likely to be better for the time being, I maintain my hope that Blizzard will do something to make Unending Fury a viable talent.

 

ManatArms

Interesting.. It seems like Battle *might* be the preferred shout now as far as threat goes?

I'm in 2P T5, mixed Hyjal and BT pieces with a bit over 220 BV, and was using my threat set(Exe + Shard/Autoblocker) for the half hour i got to play around this morning, so i think the extra bit of AP and the shard proc's helped a bit as far as that went.

Even DPSing as prot duel wielding netted me some nice results; i'll have to load up my Recount and possibly Omen just to compare how prot dps compares to my 50 point fury build, The instant slam is nice, usually around 2K? with 2 one handers, but i can't say for certain that i'd be matching or even beating Fury without the 2 handers to test TG with.

I'm curious though, what builds are some of you using as prot on PTR? I'm trying to grab Imp TC, Cruelty, and at least most of the prot tree, but i think i fell short on grabbing Imp TC on my current build.

 

Grayson Carlyle

Start here: Combat Ratings at level 80

I'll sum it up though. It works post-debuffs. So it's crap in raids, it's similar to how it is now while soloing and scales exactly how it does on live (which is to say linearly exponentially with itself). It's effectiveness scales in reverse though; it's more effective against high armor targets and nearly useless against low armor targets.

 

Moogul

Battle shout was always my default shout when tanking, I only used commanding when there was a real danger of death on a boss.

Ijago <Casual Jerks>

 

Shha

Yea it seems to be a bit underpowered right now - Id hope they change it for the sake of lvl 70 still -as far as lvl 80 goes , we have a long way to balance stuff.

 

hellord

I'm not sure it will be "crap" in raid, only its budget value will be lower in a raid situation where around 3k armor is pushed off by debuffs.
I wonder if Mongoose will take executioner place for the few raids in the 3.0.2 -> wotlk release raids.
The tooltip on wowhead for Executioner still says 840 armor ignored, but should be around 121 rating (comparing cat's edge 48 rating for 335 ArP is like 6.9sh ArP per rating).

We surely have to reconsider the itemization at t6+ level for many classes, especially for those (like me ) who tried to have a soft cap or ArP for raids.

EDIT: i'm wrong.. it's crap. IT will loose from 40 to 70% of its effectiveness making us not likely wanting so much arp since its cost is too high

 

Gallener

Fury is really lacking with TG right now. I haven't tried any Arms specs yet, but I can say tanking is now beautiful. Tanks damage output is greatly increased and threat is so much easier in 5 mans.

 

Shha

I dont have good numbers yet, but my preliminary testing suggests that ArP value is around 60% of old ones on bosses like Brutallus , and around 30% on lower armor ones. Its a bit too brutal of a change in my opinion for lvl 70, and also makes ArP really doubtful value in general. Sure on really highly armored stuff (and it seems bosses are planned around having large chunk of their armor in WOTLK - sunders + FF OR CoR (they dont stack) reduce less then 40% of bosses armor) - still however it seems that ArP is vastly underpowered.

It will take easily in realm of 55 ArP rating at 80 to increase your damage by 1%. Thats worse ratio then any other stat - and thats assuming the dalaran dummies represent average boss armor.

 

Machinator

I just tested a bunch of specs on the ptr dummies. Im not sure how other people's debuffs on the dummies affected this though. DPS is from recount, wws wont take ptr logs. All tests were in my current armory gear unless indicated DW, bladestorm on cooldown, no group for ~9 mins.

3/58/0 TG S2/S1 2H swords 1673
2/51/8 TG Incite S2/S1 swords 1780
16/45/0 DW 1H Vanir's 1710
56/5/0 Gorehowl Battle Stance 1969
56/5/0 S2 Sword Berserker Stance 1886
56/5/0 S1 Mace Berserker Stance 2049
56/5/0 Heartless/Akilzon's Sudden Death 1916

I switched around gear to get more hit to try TG again, 15% + talents.
3/58/0 TG S2/S1 swords 1873
Same gear but without flurry to test how a haste penalty would feel
3/58/0 TG S2/S1 swords 1743
Hardly had rage issues, with windfury I dont see this being an issue to nerf haste.

Then for fun in armory gear but with an Arcanite Reaper with crusader
56/5/0 Reaper Berserker Stance 1874

Im not really seeing the insane scaling TG is supposed to have compared to arms. Slam not resetting is a huge bonus, and is completely spammable every free GCD. Wrecking Crew is a flat 10% bonus, and Bladestorm is decent damage plus you have a full rage bar at the end. (not sure if thats intended) And all that without stacking hit. If TG has to cap hit to be equal to arms, I see an issue with the gear that we are supposed to share.

If anyone wants to do group testing or anything let me know.

Edit: One more test with reaper, nothing but Bladestorm and slam spam 1789, 60% of that is slam.

"Information is ammunition."

 

hellord

EDIT: It's just too expensive to be viable in raid compared to other dps stats. I doubt there will be any reason to stack it in the future.

 

Ambika

I will see what I can do tonite after our sunwell run. I'll see if recount can put up rage gained on a graph. any ideas how to best test this?