Ambika

Most of that gear has +STR and Resilience. I believe that will get you over the crit cap problem (490 defense being crit by mobs) and give your shield slams monsterous amounts of damage to crit like crazy. That gear might be better for banging out mobs than my raiding gear as my crit chance in raiding gear is 12% or thereabouts and if you can knock it higher you will wipe the floor with the first early zones as you pickup other gear to take it's place.

Again, I'm not a big pvp'r so I'm not 100% sure how resilience will work in regards to normal mobs having crits pushed off the table. I do take more damage when i'm not at 490 I've found so I just left all my good tanking gear on and decided to walk around like a M-1 Abrams.

 

levk

Armor penetration rating looks pretty bad to me, in pve if you take the 11k boss dummy as what bosses will have in general and subtract FF and sunder from that, you can work out how it rates as a DPS stat compared to others, my guess is it will suck. In pvp it'll help against very high armored targets like paladins with shields, but they'll still have a lot of armor. The new "spell penetration."

 

Nezralix

I've been trying to think about how to get a slightly better handle on how block value affects damage mitigation in various situations, beyond saying "well, in gear set X I have Y health and Z block value" (which might actually be the best way to look at it anyway). It's impossible to assign some explicit value to it, given that its utility varies widely based on the size of the incoming damage. However, I think it's possible to assign a "rough" value of how its utility scales as gear increases. We know that there's a maximum percentage that a boss can realistically hit for without threatening to instagib the tank (say, 45% of the tank's life). So, I think the best way to look at it is how block value from gear scales relative to the health gained from that gear. Maybe somebody has done this comprehensively already, but I haven't seen it.

Assuming we're working with a Prot warrior (although it applies in nearly the same way to Prot paladins), we have some numbers:

* Block value is increased by 30% across the board, followed by another 10% from the Shield Slam glyph. Potentially another 5% from a meta gem, but I think that'll be edged out by the 2% armor meta gem, so in any case I'm going to not consider it right now. I'll assume (somewhat arbitrarily) that these stack multiplicatively. This is potentially increased by 100% by Shield Block, so keep that in mind, but I won't factor it into calculations.
* Strength is increased by 6% from Vitality and 10% from Kings; we'll assume these are additive for 16%.
* Stamina is increased by 6% from Vitality, and 10% from Kings; again, additive for 16%.

Now, let's look at what 150 stamina represents in item budget:

* It's 150*1.16*10 = 1740 hit points
* It's equivalent to 100 strength in item budget, which increases block value by ((100*1.16)/2)*1.3*1.1 = 82.9
* It's equivalent to 154 block value, which increases actual block value by (154/2)*1.3*1.1 = 220.2

Thus, the equivalent value of strength increases block value by 4.8% of the health gained, and the equivalent value of raw block value increases it by 12.7% of the health gained. In a case where gear were to scale infinitely powerful, such that it completely overwhelmed the base health and strength values, and any static stat buffs that a player had, then you could consider that for a gear set with as much strength and block value as stamina, in a case where a player is getting hit for damage equal to the entirety of their life, then the player is blocking 17.5% of incoming damage. If a player is getting hit for half of that, then it's a 17.5*2 = 35% damage reduction. Certainly not insignificant.

Of course, you can't assume that gear will be itemized like that. Although virtually all tanking gear has strength now, block value is still not guaranteed by any means; you might conservatively estimate that half of the available gear has some block value on it, and to that extent, it's probably not itemized in the same quantity as stamina. Looking over the current tanking gear availability, I'd roughly estimate that the average tanking item has 75% as much strength as stamina (adjusted for different stat values), and if it has block value, then it has maybe 60% of the equivalent stamina value.

So, in this case, we adjust our percentage of health gained from strength from 4.8% to 4.8*0.75 = 3.6%. Now, if half of our gear has 60% of the equivalent stamina value, then that averages to 30% of the overall equivalent stamina value, so we reduce our health equivalence from 12.7% to 12.7*0.3 = 3.8%. So now, this "collective gear assessment" suggests that our block value will account for 7.4% damage reduction for the maximum size of incoming hit (or 15% for a 50% damage hit). This is a lot of assumptions about itemization, but I think that if you can effectively estimate what the stat allocation on tanking gear looks like, then you can at least determine an upper bound on useful block is going to be, and scale it appropriately with the size of incoming hits.

So, the major flaws in this model:

1) It's hard to estimate what stat allocation on gear is going to look like; only Blizzard knows how it's going to end up. This also doesn't account for players choosing gear with a different stat allocation, which can vary based on how variable Blizzard's tanking itemization scheme is. People will generally always enchant and gem for stamina, and can't really do anything for raw block value. They can shoot for strength, but are unlikely to, and it doesn't convert as well to final block value anyway.
2) It doesn't account for base health/strength and external buffs. These are likely to increase hit points by a large fixed amount, and not increase block value much at all.
3) It doesn't account for a shield. However, since block value from a shield increases at the same rate as other stats increase, you can probably just figure it into your block value gear estimation.

You can derive some conclusions from looking at block value in terms of itemization points:

1) On average, block values are going to be higher in Wrath than they were in TBC, larger than the item level increase alone would indicate. This is primarily because raw block value still appears to exist as a common stat on Wrath tanking gear, and final block values are also being driven up by strength, which is nearly ubiquitous. Strength doesn't convert to block value as directly, but it makes up for it in the fact that it exists on so many more items. And it benefits from various multipliers.
2) If itemization stays roughly consistent from entry-level raiding to high-end raiding, then block values will absorb a higher and higher percentage of incoming damage, as scaling gear overtakes the hit points gained from base health and stamina buffs.
3) You *can* assign a useful average mitigation value to block value. Based on my earlier logic, I'd estimate it at around 9% damage reduction for an incoming hit that would have done damage equal to all of your hit points (or double that for a hit that hits for half as much, quadruple for a hit that hits for a quarter as much). This does including some upward adjustment for a shield, but it's also assuming gear that has significantly outscaled base health/strength and buffs.

In the real world, I've heard of Naxx tanks having around 1400 block value, and 22,000 health. That's about 6.4% of their maximum life in block value (not adjusted for the Shield Slam glyphs or other considerations). It's pretty close. I think it'll get closer to 9% as gear improves.

One thing to note, I suppose, is that this is still probably more significant to paladins, who can still reliably block every hit. I think it won't be as relevant to warrior tanks until gear improves to the point where they can block nearly every hit.

 

Voxx

Has anyone tested to make sure that the new ArP is a % of the target's armor? As opposed to it being a total % of damage reduction.

i.e: 15% ArP would yield -1500 Armor vs a 10k Armored target in the first scenario whereas 15% ArP would yield -15% total Damage reduction, making it infinitely more valuable vs high armor targets, and about as effective vs low armored targets as it is now.

The latter of the two seems too good to be true, but I haven't seen discussion on it anywhere.

 

Grayson Carlyle

The previous page: WotLK talent Preview/Discussion

 

Voxx

Wow, not sure how I missed that. Ah well, looks like ArP is a thing of the past.

 

Emeraude

Unfortunately because it was popular when it didn't suck, it's going to end up on our itemization alot in WotLK.

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Grayson Carlyle

And those of us who have tons and tons of it on live (1543 personally, before Executioner) now do some pretty awful DPS compared to those with high AP/crit values.

 

Darmon

I use for my avoidance tests the dualwield ogres from above Shatrah, using 75 avoidance or so. Don't autoattack, the only rage should be from dodge/paries/blocks

 

Pitbuller

1543 armorpenetration is 220 ArP rating. That reduces enemy armor 29.7%. If boss have 7700 armor -2600 sunder - 610 faerie fire. That leaves 4490 armor. 29.7% of that is 1333 armor(vs. 1543live). So boss will have 3157armor. Bigger loss is that CoR and FF don't stack anymore.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Shha

Thats true, but remember about following:

a) All bosses in Sunwell except Brutallus have 6200 armor.
b) You use Imp Expose Armor on most of them (or you should) Which is 3075 reduction.
So the real calculation is 6200-3075-610= 2515 armor x 29.7% = 747 ArP vs 1543 live. Thats putting ArP below hit rating for me (for normal 17/44 not TG), and as lowest desirability stat on gear.

 

Hisstok

Thats my concern
The nature of armor pen is it is useless until you get a certain amount of it then its value increases drastically, by making it a static percent, its kind of stuck at the same low value until you have a totally absurd amount of it to bring a targets armor to the low levels where it becomes worth having. The percent decrease sounds good on paper (10% would be 770 pen on a boss, sounds good eh?) but unless you mass an amazing amount of it, its even more worthless against low armor targets than high, you need something on the lines of 40-50% rating to do the same job.

Perhaps armor reduction is supposed to work /before/ debuffs meaning the percentage is taken off of the targets total armor not the debuffed value, I cant imagine blizz fubbed the math so hard as to make Arp from the best, to worst stat to stack..

 

Krogg

That's quite a substantial beating to much of the current "best in slot" gear in addition to the fact that we'll need to re-gem a ton for hit with the current form of TG. My guild has just gotten access to the Gloves of Immortal Dusk, but I am questioning whether or not to pick them up or just grab the plate (which was clearly inferior before) due to the fact that there is a good amount of hit and haste already included. Hearing all of this about the ArP nerf is not making it any easier. It seems like the plate shoulders from Twins will now be an upgrade to Fury warriors over T6 as well.

What are some thoughts on trying to fill out those last few upgrades without grabbing gear that will be garbage in only a few weeks, or conversely passing on key items? It seems like gemming will be an easy way to make the necessary adjustments to hit/crit/str while leveling, since even green gems offer more stats than current epics, but I really don't know how to safely evaluate current upgrades, especially when it comes to one item with ArP and another without.

 

Zegai

Wasn't Expose Armor changed to be the same reduction as Sunder?
Imp Expose was changed to be Energy Cost Reduction, I think.

@Prot:
I got a beta key in the last mass-invite wave, I really like the changes, but I couldn't really test it properly at 80 with PVP gear. Being #1-2 DPS in some instances (due to no threat issues when AoEing, mainly) is slightly amusing.
Huge threat leads in most fights make me think people weren't near their best with that gear.
Also, paladins are still a bit better than us, possibly quite a bit - our holy paladin specced prot and was easily able to put out as much or more threat than me on most mobs (a lot more on AoE).
Haven't raided with bears or DKs to see how they compare though.

 

Bostung

So, back on the tanking side of things, I did a few tests on the PTR to try to determine the threat mechanics of Thunder Clap and Defensive Stance. I'm hoping this reflects what we'll see in the expansion because I like the numbers I'm seeing. I'll follow up with my method and data, but let me start with the results:

Results:

Stance Threat Modifiers:

• Battle: 80%
• Defensive: 207.35%
• Berserker: 80%

Thunder Clap:

• Threat Modifier: 175%
• AP Coeficient: 12% (24% with improved TC)
• Improved Thunder Clap doubled all damage, base and AP
• 150% damage criticals
• Seems to use melee hit/crit (key word: seems. This part of the testing was sloppy as hell)

Method:

I used the following script:


I didn't write it, and honestly I don't understand most of it, but what it does is get the raw total threat value on your current target and place it at the end of your combat log entries. It seems to be accurate, and testing its accuracy is part of the reason I checked the threat modifiers on Battle and Berserker Stance. Still, I wouldn't stake my life on any of the results here.

If you use this yourself, be warned that it doesn't update instantly, so the threat numbers following an ability use will not reflect the threat added by that ability. Seems like the game just has trouble with the the simultaneous attack/querry that happens. Also, the scale is off from what we're used to. As far as the number displayed is concerned, 1 damage = 100 threat, so just divide the numbers given by 100 to get "normal" threat values.


Test Data:

Format: Damage (threat)

Test 1: Stance Modifiers (0 talents)

Berserker Stance white damage:
313 (25040)
+311 (49920)
Calculation: (313+311)*.8 = 499.2
Conclusion: Threat modifier for Berserker Stance is still 80%

Battle Stance white damage:
317 (25360)
+363 (54400)
Calculation: (317+363)*.8 = 544
Conclusion: Threat modifier for Battle Stance is still 80%

Defensive Stance white damage:
666 (138095) [crit]
+345 (209631)
Calculation: 209631/(666+345) = 207.35
Conclusion: New threat modifier for Defensive Stance is 207.35%

Test 2: Thunder Clap Threat (0 talents)

Defensive Stance TC Damage:
200 (72572)
201 (72934)
Calculation: 725.72/(200*2.0735)= 1.75
Conclusion: Thunder Clap retains its 175% threat modifier

Battle Stance TC Damage:
221 (30940)
222 (31080)
Calculation: 221*.8*1.75=309.40
Conclusion: Thunder Clap retains its 175% threat modifier, even in battle stance

Test 3: Thunder Clap Coefficient and Scaling (only talents are Deflection and Improved Thunder Clap)

Same AP as above, same enemy, in defensive stance, now with Imp TC:
402 (145871)
Calculation1: 402/2 = 201
Conclusion1: All damage, even the AP coeficient, is being multiplied by the talent
Calculation2: 402*1.75*2.0735 = 1458.71
Conclusion2: The threat coefficient is unchanged by the talent. Threat is doubled because damage is doubled.

Thunderclap vs 0 armor training dummy: (no debuffs on dummy, battle stance, 1078 AP, base TC damage is 368)
626
626
625
939 (crit)
Calculation1: 626*1.5=939
Conclusion1: Thunder Clap crits for 150% damage
Calculation2: (626-368)/1078 = .24
Conclusion2: Coeficient with improved TC is 24% of AP, which means 12% with normal TC

"Test" 4: Thunder Clap Hit/Crit Mechanics: (seriously sloppy testing here)
Took off all crit rating gear, added some agility stuff, got 9% hit, and thunderclapped the dummy about 20 times, while watching for crit-affecting debuffs:
Hits: ~18
Crits: ~2
Miss/Parry/Dodge/Block: 0
Conclusion: Seems to be using melee hit and crit.

So, yeah, I'm hoping these results are accurate because things are looking pretty good, here.

 

Nezralix

Well, it looks like the 75% threat modification blue comment was either wrong or the change was reverted. Either way, that's good news. It certainly makes Thunderclap more appealing than I was thinking it was going to be.

 

Dots

1.45/0.7=2.0714

That is the old Defensive Stance threat multiplier with BoSalv baked into it, the number certainly makes sense.

 

Darmon

Using the test above, on current PTR you do not gain rage from dodge/pary.

 

Sabethaya

But the old Defensive Stance threat multiplier was 1.30*1.15:

1.30*1.15/0.70 = 213.57% BTW

 

Bostung

True, but all the official posts talking about making Defiance baseline stated that the new modifier would be 1.45, rather than the 1.495 that actually resulted from the multiplicative stacking. I suspect 1.45 is the number that served as the base before they "baked salv in."

 

aylene

I do believe my subject of discussion to be fairly non-mathematical and rather emotional therefore not precise as to the point these forums usually require, but is there anyone out there sharing my opinion on the removal of Titan's Grip and instead getting something totally different?

I've been running alot of different TG builds and I always fall back to the feeling that the gameplay the previously mentioned talent favours feels very clumsy and random to the utmost. Whenever I get a miss streak right after dropping flurry I feel like tearing my hair off due to the naturally slow speed of the 2 handers. And whenever the crits reappear the rage is up at 100 again in one mainhand / offhand crit and excessive rage can't be dumped quick enough as long as the offhand continues to crit. What I'm trying to get at is the fact that I don't like the non-flowing playstyle TG implies.

I must say for myself I'd prefer seeing some rework on the live version of rampage moved down two tiers on top of the new rampage which in my opinion appears to be in terms of Blizzards ideas about adjusting max / min raids. I would as well like to keep the one-handers for a more flowing playstyle that doesn't make me want to put a hammer through the screen whenever I'm on a bad streak. But then again I'm realistic enough to realize Blizzard would never change an end talent this close to the release of WotLK.

Anyone care to elaborate on the clumsy, RNG-ish gameplay Titan's Grip advocates? What could be improved about it? Or do you enjoy the high-numbers of the 2 handers?

entering godmode since '06

 

Nyel

Has anybody done the calculations as to what enchants might be better for TG in live?

For lvl 80 the obvious combination will be Enchant Weapon - Berserking - Spell - World of Warcraft and Enchant Weapon - Accuracy - Spell - World of Warcraft

But im wondering for when patch 3.0.2 goes live, i have a [Bloodmoon] and [The Blade of Harbingers] that will need to be enchanted...my best guess would be to do Exec/Sav, but ive heard people give praise to dual mongoose as TG.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

Hozz

I dont think a 51 point talent should have a cost, a penalty. It seems like they want us to wield two 2h weps because 'Its cool'. Well maybe its just not going to work out and they ought to rethink the whole thing?

Unending Fury is terrible for how deep it is. What you get for 5 points is shit considering Enraged Assault no longer exists.

 

kargathia

This is not founded by any mathematical basis, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway.

It very much sounds like the problems you have while leveling a warrior, if you miss twice in a row you're mainly sitting there and cursing at the screen because it just feels so clumsy and amateuristic.
If titans grip performs the same way it'll feel better when more hit is stacked.

"...vincer potero dentro a me l'ardore
ch'i' ebbi a divenir del mondo esperto
e de li vizi umani e del valore"

 

nakoda

Question for Bostung: I noticed you didn't test with Incite. I am pretty inept at creating tests like yours, but given that you started with no talents as your control, wouldn't you want to test with Incite as well as Imp TC in order to see the full range of crit based damage affecting threat levels?

I'm also just going to pipe in and say the 15 minutes I got to try on the PTR last night made me giddy with joy. I've been playing prot since 11/2004, and I've always dreamed of actually feeling like I'm cracking skulls with my shield. Now if Elves could ride Mechanostriders, my dreams would be fulfilled.