WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 85

Bronwyn · 09/18/08, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Graul

The TM switch helps Arms (and Fury I guess...) for PvP yet wastes 3 points for a Protection build and also means that most Arms/Fury Warriors will not have Imp TC to off tank with unless they are a DW 1h Fury build with Incite. I don't know if TM is better or not for threat either because Sunder now scales with AP.

I was thinking Threat. (I'm not familiar with tactical mastery but I do know that right now I find it difficult to hold aggro if my add happens to be the first to be focused.)

Lithose · 09/18/08, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

It means the first 100 points of Dodge Rating provide more dodge than the next 100 points.

There's a long discussion starting at around the 6th page of the Combat Ratings thread.

To provide a simple example, a level 70 Draenei Paladin was getting 0.0507% Dodge per 1 rating when she had 147 Dodge Rating equipped, but this had diminished to 0.0377% Dodge per 1 rating when she had 742 Dodge Rating equipped.

From what I've read, the following forms of avoidance are affected: Defense Rating (miss, dodge and parry), Dodge Rating, Parry Rating and Dodge from AGI. It's possible Block-from-Defense and Block Rating are also affected, but I haven't read anything saying it is.

This has actually been happening through all of beta - the new tooltip simply formalizes it as something intended.

Checked the tank threads and of course I skipped the obvious one like a dolt, apologies. This has some big implications for how we gem/gear, I suppose, especially considering block isn't affected by the DR, so if you can achieve a reasonably high block rating, then BV might become even more important.

Deathwing · 09/18/08, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

It's not a bad spec but you cut 1hs which is alot better than Cruelty. My modified version would be something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

It sucks that I can't get Imp Spellreflect since 4% spell miss chance is really nice but you'd have to cut Cruelty completely then and get one more point from somewhere else. I am also reluctant to part with 1/3 TM because anything worth stance dancing for in the expansion is 15 rage or less (SR, TC, Disarm).

I notice your build and the one you quoted don't have improved revenge. Is it not worth it anymore, threat wise, compared to devastate? Also, how necessary is puncture for a tanking build?

Zegai · 09/18/08, 10:53 AM

Revenge is about the same damage/threat as devastate (averaging crits) w/ my lvl 70 gear@beta, untalented. It is a bit better talented. However, it doesn't proc sword and board, and that is kind of a big issue with it.

Revenge also has a base scaling of 11.16% AP talented (9.3% untalented) - devastate currently has 14.3% AP scaling (normalization is 2.5 speed, right? Can't check at work), so it scales better, with a +15% crit rate.

At lvl 80, Devastate is basically 1.15 (crit) * (505+0.143*AP) vs rev's 1.2 * (725+0.093*AP). Revenge will still be better since prot can't get that much AP (dev only reaches it at > 5k AP).

At this moment I wouldn't spec into imp revenge, lack of points+sword and board would make up for the difference in threat.

I haven't tested it extensively, though. (neither these numbers, nor ingame)

Graul · 09/18/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Zegai

Revenge is about the same damage/threat as devastate (averaging crits) w/ my lvl 70 gear@beta, untalented. It is a bit better talented. However, it doesn't proc sword and board, and that is kind of a big issue with it.

Revenge also has a base scaling of 11.16% AP talented (9.3% untalented) - devastate currently has 14.3% AP scaling (normalization is 2.5 speed, right? Can't check at work), so it scales better, with a +15% crit rate.

At lvl 80, Devastate is basically 1.15 (crit) * (505+0.143*AP) vs rev's 1.2 * (725+0.093*AP). Revenge will still be better since prot can't get that much AP (dev only reaches it at > 5k AP).

At this moment I wouldn't spec into imp revenge, lack of points+sword and board would make up for the difference in threat.

I haven't tested it extensively, though. (neither these numbers, nor ingame)

I'm seeing different statements about S&B and complaints that it makes tanking even more boring and simplistic because you don't even need to use anything other than Devastate + SS as long as you have this talent. Apparently it does proc enough to be worth spamming Devastate every GCD and TPS is higher than if you use Revenge. How true this is I really don't know, nor do I know how they actually guaged the threat differences.

Machinator · 09/18/08, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

And, Arms DPS is performing below benchmarks and can expect buffs.

Did they explicitly say that or is that just inferred from the notes? I still want to do more testing, but I still can't get TG to out perform Arms, so Im not sure what to make of that. Hopefully this weekend Ill copy again with a hit capped set and see how much of a difference it makes.

• Morsexy · 09/18/08, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

It's not a bad spec but you cut 1hs which is alot better than Cruelty. My modified version would be something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

It sucks that I can't get Imp Spellreflect since 4% spell miss chance is really nice but you'd have to cut Cruelty completely then and get one more point from somewhere else. I am also reluctant to part with 1/3 TM because anything worth stance dancing for in the expansion is 15 rage or less (SR, TC, Disarm).

Why can't you just go with 3\5 Shield specialization and 0\3 in puncture? This lets you do a 12-8-51 build ( including 2\2 Imp Reflect ) Build here which seems pretty attractive to me as its the old 17-3-31 wet dream of the dueling prot warrior.

I don't get why just giving us a crappy fury 45-50 talent isn't enough to make TG much more reasonable. They could make a miss penalty that applies to all attacks requiring weapons, leave bloodthirst as it was, and make the penalty 10%.

They're never going to be able balance the warrior who just got to 80 vs the warrior who has farmed end zone ala sunwell for 4 months, so why bother? Just adjust TG in a year when it becomes ridiculous.

Zegai · 09/18/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Graul

I'm seeing different statements about S&B and complaints that it makes tanking even more boring and simplistic because you don't even need to use anything other than Devastate + SS as long as you have this talent. Apparently it does proc enough to be worth spamming Devastate every GCD and TPS is higher than if you use Revenge. How true this is I really don't know, nor do I know how they actually guaged the threat differences.

From what I tested, yeah, Dev+SS seems higher threat than including Revenge. There is also Concussion Blow and Shockwave, however, and up to this patch, Thunderclap generated enough single target threat to be useful.

I did a very small test yesterday, beating on a test dummy with a resto shaman giving me untalented WF and SoE, and with prot gear in def stance my DPS was somewhat near 800. With no buffs, ~630. Not a huge testing time though, around 2-3 minutes per test.

That was rellying mostly on devastate and shield slam, with the occasional heroic strike when I had excess rage. In that kind of situation sword and board is extremely useful, since it saves a load of rage, and gives you access to shield slam even if rage starved. I like the talent, I don't really think it makes tanking more boring. The thing is, they will have to manage ways to make us think while tanking, since it looks like they don't really intend for threat to be a huge issue (that, or they will tone up/down dps/tps a lot in the final builds of the beta/PTR).

Dots · 09/18/08, 11:31 AM

The thing you are forgetting about Revenge is that it has a huge threat modifier (250% in the previous build, haven't been able to log on yet) on top of the Defensive Stance modifier, Devastate doesn't. Haven't really done the math on whether it's worth using it regularly in a rotation or not though.

Putting filler points into arms just to get Impale feels like a waste for prot specs, especially since you will have less crit % from not having full Cruelty. I'd rather just go for 5/5 Cruelty instead.

Liar · 09/18/08, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

I notice your build and the one you quoted don't have improved revenge. Is it not worth it anymore, threat wise, compared to devastate? Also, how necessary is puncture for a tanking build?

The reason I didn't take improved Revenge has other reasons. I just can't afford the points to get both Puncture and Imp Revenge. Revenge is nigh useless on fights like RoS or BB where you need to be second in threat or force threat swaps respectively. Devastate's reduced cost always stays useful since it has no requirement to proc and it's a good way to proc S&B while OTing. That isn't even considering the fact that you can DPS more efficiently with Devastate while soloing (I am still not sold on DPSing as 1h/Shield in Def stance).

Originally Posted by Morsexy

Why can't you just go with 3\5 Shield specialization and 0\3 in puncture? This lets you do a 12-8-51 build ( including 2\2 Imp Reflect ) Build here which seems pretty attractive to me as its the old 17-3-31 wet dream of the dueling prot warrior.

I already addressed Puncture above. Shield Spec is something you either want 0/5 or 5/5 in my opinion. I want to be able to count on the 2 rage on block all the time so that's why I am going 5/5. I'd rather see it's ranks reduced though.

Shivas · 09/18/08, 12:37 PM

Interestingly I actually would prefer Improved TC with TM so that we could get cruelty, armored to the teeth, and impale. Unless they switched places in order to assist fury/arms wars, 20% critical strike damage is always good.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000
Just switch TM with Imp Tclap on the built, what do you guys think?

Also a thought, if they reduced Shield Spec to 3 points, we could grab Impale, while keeping Imp Tclap in protection. This would also assist with arms/fury guys who are dipping into prot for off tanking purposes.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Bfamredux · 09/18/08, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

It's not a bad spec but you cut 1hs which is alot better than Cruelty. My modified version would be something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

It sucks that I can't get Imp Spellreflect since 4% spell miss chance is really nice but you'd have to cut Cruelty completely then and get one more point from somewhere else. I am also reluctant to part with 1/3 TM because anything worth stance dancing for in the expansion is 15 rage or less (SR, TC, Disarm).

I like your spec here, the only thing I would question would be the 1 point in TM. What would you change stances for? You picked up Warbringer, so there's your charge, not to mention there's also Intervene if you need to book it somewhere.

What I was thinking is close, I will probably still keep Vigilance around, just because it seems so useful for getting an enormous head start on boss fights. (A well tuned hunter+warrior combo could really put up some insane threat) Not to mention it's usable in combat, so if a lock or hunter starts riding your tail, put it on them for a short amount of time. I think the 5% chance to dodge could be removed, and buff the threat reduction, especially if you're going for 2/2 Safeguard.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

I was able to do a 5-man at 71 (Nexus) and am really happy with all of the changes so far. Never had a problem with multi-mob tanking, threat or survivability.

Boddugh · 09/18/08, 12:41 PM

Given the new tweaks to the talents...

Here is what I am debating between:

TG build which I think I have the hit gear to minimize the impact

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12050120501351

Or this Dev-spam build:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Thoughts?

• Morsexy · 09/18/08, 12:45 PM

Well we need a minimum of 2\5 to progress to tier 2, unless you are saying you would do 2\2 Bloodrage. With the advent of MD, I think needing more than 20 rage from bloodrage as a bonus is largely unimportant.

It just seems to me that whatever you get in puncture, improved heroic strike, improved spell reflect, shield spec, are bonus points spent. Whether it ends up 7-8-56, or 12-8-51 or 12-3-56, those 5 points are in my mind that bonus and won't really change much except if you skip the fury stuff.

Shield spec should probably be changed but in lieu of that, anything beyond 2\5 seems a waste.

Nezralix · 09/18/08, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Chardonnay

I find that change useless and even detrimental. As you said, intervening the MT is not an option now.

I'm sure they really, really don't want people intervening the tank. It's abundantly clear that this ability is intended to protect squishier targets in PvE or some PvP scenarios. I'm surprised they didn't increase the threat reduction, but whatever.

In other news, Blessing of Sanctuary has been considerably buffed to return 10 rage or 20 runic power on a dodge/parry/block:

Blessing of Sanctuary - Spell - World of Warcraft

I'm really wishing they didn't put things that are incredibly awesome for Prot warriors into a talent tree of a class that they're likely to never encounter outside of 25-man raid scenarios and, considerably less frequently, 10-man raid scenarios. Especially an incredibly awesome buff that would really shine in a 5-man environment.

And oddly enough, the mana return remains unchanged.

jessi · 09/18/08, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

As Fury, I think tactical mastery are not wasted points at all. They actually allow you to realistically offtank trash or bossadds. 3/3 HS is a given and parry increases your validity as offtank.

I recognized this immediately when I saw the change. Blizzard has been saying for months now that they want all pvp and dps specs to be able to tank decently well. Now all pvp and dps specs can get TM without losing anything except for a potential better talent.

Ballistae · 09/18/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Zegai

The thunderclap change is extremely clumsy. I mean, yeah, it had to be changed (it was generating a lot more threat Single-Target than revenge or devastate, and now it's the more or less the same), but it is a huge and unwarranted nerf to AoE threat.

I don't agree that that prompts a change. Why the need to chose between keeping an optimum threat rotation going (i.e. without TC) and keeping up debuffs? After all TC *is* on a cooldown.

Deathwing · 09/18/08, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

I'm sure they really, really don't want people intervening the tank. It's abundantly clear that this ability is intended to protect squishier targets in PvE or some PvP scenarios. I'm surprised they didn't increase the threat reduction, but whatever.

In other news, Blessing of Sanctuary has been considerably buffed to return 10 rage or 20 runic power on a dodge/parry/block:

Blessing of Sanctuary - Spell - World of Warcraft

I'm really wishing they didn't put things that are incredibly awesome for Prot warriors into a talent tree of a class that they're likely to never encounter outside of 25-man raid scenarios and, considerably less frequently, 10-man raid scenarios. Especially an incredibly awesome buff that would really shine in a 5-man environment.

And oddly enough, the mana return remains unchanged.

I agree with your BoS comment, however I think they will be making Justified Killing, or something similar, baseline. It would be a bit weird to give warriors all these 5-man tools, then cut them off at the legs because they can't use them from rage starvation.

As for the wording on BoS, I think that's an old bug. I seem to remember old tooltips/aura descriptions on wowhead or thottbot would have 10x the amount of rage you actually received. Maybe runic power works the same way. To further verify that, BoS was only giving 1 rage patch.

Nezralix · 09/18/08, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

As for the wording on BoS, I think that's an old bug. I seem to remember old tooltips/aura descriptions on wowhead or thottbot would have 10x the amount of rage you actually received. Maybe runic power works the same way. To further verify that, BoS was only giving 1 rage patch.

Yes, it was listed as 10 rage, and now is listed as 100. I'm just assuming that it correlates to 10 rage.

Shha · 09/18/08, 2:10 PM

as far as i know you get rage in reality in chunks of 0.1. Thats why swinging for constant damage that would give you lets say 10.5 rage will actually give you 10-11-10-11 etc. Thats probably a tooltip miswording originating from that - they forgot to divide it by 10 for the use of tooltip.

Gurth999 · 09/18/08, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dots

Putting filler points into arms just to get Impale feels like a waste for prot specs, especially since you will have less crit % from not having full Cruelty. I'd rather just go for 5/5 Cruelty instead.

You would still have 15% bonus to crit for both devastate and shield slam.

Dots · 09/18/08, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Gurth999

You would still have 15% bonus to crit for both devastate and shield slam.

I'm aware of that, that's why I said less. I don't think it's really worth it if you don't have full cruelty. You can skip some prot stuff and just get both though if you want.

renegar · 09/18/08, 2:47 PM

A few things I would like to mention:

Toughness does increase the return on Armored to the Teeth.

Thunder Clap: Basically sucks up 3 points that could have been spend on useful talents in the Prot tree.

Damage Shield hasn't been nerfed yet. Phew!

Edit: Opinion/crappy data removed.

Grayson Carlyle · 09/18/08, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Chirality

Note this applies to Bloodthirst now. "Cosmetic change" my ass.

It always did apply to Bloodthirst, that's why it's "cosmetic".

Armed to the Teeth is a very bad way to try to solve the gear itemization difference. At 80 with early raid gear, a warrior in full plate will have ~5000 more armor than a warrior in full leather, which translates to 37.5 str. That's the equivalent budget we lose on a single piece of 100% budget plate compared to leather. At 3 str/400 armor, it's already a required talent for every spec. The only way they could make up for 4-stat/3-stat gear difference is by quadrupling the strength benefit. Doing that obviously makes a completely broken talent. Armed to the Teeth should be a baseline passive skill learned at level 2 for 12 str/400 armor and then rebalance us around that, if it is in fact meant to make us not take leather.

Ambika · 09/18/08, 2:54 PM

I'm sorry for not getting back to y'all about testing the things you wanted. I hope someone had done it already if not

One thing I'm looking at the new loot, I'm seeing a ton of gear with +ArP (which was debugged to be crap?) or +Expertise (which is still good?) and AP/STA or packing on +AGI.

Now would it be useful for someone building a threat/farming set to pack on as much AP and AGI as you can get so your shield slams hit/crit more? We will be having allot of +DEF gear and everything under the sun has +STA on it (our new gems are +20/22/24) so really would it be more advantageous to start picking up normally hunter/rogue gear with +AGI/AP on it to incorporate into our builds?

Trying to find that sweet spot of gear+threat as my guildies are going to go nuts on threat I feel.