They never reveal their testing methods, but many assume it's practically in the best stat setup possible and fully raid buffed, aka near the end of the expansion. As you have noticed Arms *is* doing more damage right now, but that's at 70, and no one can really say what it will be like compared to TG when TG gets to dump another 10 talent points. Arms will be able to as well, but it seems like the 10 TG will be using will give it a much bigger boost in comparsion. And sadly I agree that they may likely just say "screw this, we are tired of having to deal with it", scrap TG and replace it with something utterly boring like Improved Bloodthirst.
I've been playing a Warrior since the end of Dec 2004, and I've stuck with it through all of the problems and it's almost always been worth it in the end, but right now I am just not seeing the silver lining, and each consecuitive patch just seems to hit everything but Protection harder and harder. They have around six weeks to do whatever numbers pass needs to be done with all of the classes and get Arms and Fury at least to look like they are trying to make progress towards something specific, even if it's going to take them another month or three to fully realize them after release.
My main problem with arms and fury is the general approach they have for warriors as hybrid classes. The way I see it they try to see dps as some "offspec", and while viable it suffers from following:
- There is no clear idea where warriors should place on damage meters. The way I see pve dps , right now they need to decide on one of following - and they refuse to:
a) Make warriors top dps class. Thats one approach. Im not sure if Id like it, but it could surely work. It did pre-BC afterall.
b) Give dps warriors similiar utility, and similiar level of "maintenance cost" as other classes. Right now we suffer from:
- Lack of Aggro dump
- 10% more damage taken (slightly alleviated by TG bloodthirst, but its still not good on some stun/damage/2ndary nukes etc)
- Having to stay in melee range while having worst survivability. Plate is nothing vs cleaves/aggro pulls etc that might happen in melee range. Agility based classes like rogues have actually more useful way of avoiding damage (dodge), and reactive abilities like spirit vanish etc to get out of danger.
- Lack of basically any utility. Thats something I think that eludes people but :
* We dont offtank. With all 3 specs of DK being supposedly more "tanking oriented", prot paladins, ferals, prot warriors, a dps warrior right now is FAR on the tanking list. Id say as far as 5th-6th tank "in line". Aka useless.
* Our main utility - Shouts, are currently alviable from other sources - sources BETTER then ours. Imagine a raid setup. Prot warrior doing commanding in melee range, some destro lock with blood pact at range - and a paladin doing BoM on whoever needs it (without salvation, you WILL be able to have might/kings on everyone in imaginable 25 man setup).
* Blood frenzy/Sunders etc are either kept by rogues or tanks, with more ease and less cost of personal dps
To take it together: We take most damage, suck up most healers attention, provide no raid synergy, and produce average at best dps. Something has to change. Either we become new rogues and top dps charts easily, or we need better utility/more survivability.
A buff to our utility could be actually coupled in my opinion with buff to personal dps. Some classes already have that, time for warriors. Others can be just making our buffs cover more areas (but still not stack). Examples:
Rampage could add attack power to the warrior only. So its a buff to personal dps. Trauma could give your melee attacks a chance to refresh rend etc etc. Just loose ideas.
And on other hand - Battleshout could provide attack power AND str/agility bonus for example - not stackable with shaman totems (i dont think any other class has agility buff to raid anyway). Blood frenzy could add a 3% crit taken debuff (not stackable with ret paladins).
Thats the balance. Now for playability.
I was hyped when 1st "big warrior patch" hit it. It seemed so sweet - good dps, enraged assault actually taking some skill and planning to make best use of, sometimes duh even problems with gcd management. It was actually challenging and fun. Right now lets see
Pre-BC Fury:
Button A "/castsequence BT,WW,BT,BT,WW,BT,BT,WW"
Button B " /cast Heroic Strike; /cast Hamstring"
Spam A and B when full of rage
BC Fury
Button A "/castsequence BT,WW,BT,WW,BT,Rampage"
Button B "/Cast Heroic Strike"
Spam A and B when full of rage
Wotlk Fury
Button A "/castsequence BT,WW,BT,BT,WW,BT,BT,WW"
Button B " /cast Heroic Strike"
Spam A and B when full of rage
See the pattern? 4 years of doing the same thing - I dont think other classes get that. Sure I purposedly skipped BS slams, but will they make enough difference?"
Enraged assault was a great idea - if they had to add a debuff then to TG, then I wouldnt complain. Right now its just meh.
A difference in attack power of: 690
A difference in TC damage of: 103.0328
An attack power coefficient of: 0.1692
This sample was taken with Improved Thunder Clap.
So at least it appears the talent increases base damage and AP damage. Just for completions sake, does anyone know if this was the case pre-patch?
In any case, I am disappointed with this change. The damage nerf isn't even the main reason either - it's the fact that I have to take 3 points out of something else to take it. In return, I get to tank with Tactical Mastery or Improved Charge. Not a fair trade in my opinion.
- There is no clear idea where warriors should place on damage meters. The way I see pve dps , right now they need to decide on one of following - and they refuse to:
a) Make warriors top dps class. Thats one approach. Im not sure if Id like it, but it could surely work. It did pre-BC afterall.
Shouldn't everyone do the same DPS now? Utility is being spread out to all the classes and Blizzard is more or less getting rid of the so called hybrid.
Edit: You forgot the Slam proc.
To take it together: We take most damage, suck up most healers attention, provide no raid synergy, and produce average at best dps. Something has to change. Either we become new rogues and top dps charts easily, or we need better utility/more survivability.
Shifting from all the leather and mail to plate thanks to armored to the teeth should help on the damage taken front.
All the self-healing fury has baked into it should help ameliorate some of the healer attention (ditto for more armor).
Rampage, booming voice, etc are all steps in the right direction toward raid synergy.
Shifting from all the leather and mail to plate thanks to armored to the teeth should help on the damage taken front.
All the self-healing fury has baked into it should help ameliorate some of the healer attention (ditto for more armor).
Rampage, booming voice, etc are all steps in the right direction toward raid synergy.
Armor does zero to mitigate the main source of DPS Warrior damage on raids. Bloodthirst healing was also nerfed back to near uselessness. Rampage in it's current form is also useless except on those super rare occasions your 100% attendance Feral can't be online.
Excuse my ignorance but from what I understood the TG penalty was added because 2hrs were not coded like 1h for dwing (Basically with TG had a -8% chance to miss for a boss). So they added the penalty so it falls more in line with 1hrs. Is this the case? Because from what I'm comprehending there is an ADDITIONAL -15% chance to miss (TG) on top of the penalty as if you were dwing with 1hs?
Armor does zero to mitigate the main source of DPS Warrior damage on raids. Bloodthirst healing was also nerfed back to near uselessness. Rampage in it's current form is also useless except on those super rare occasions your 100% attendance Feral can't be online.
They would have to remove stance penalties to fix this or bring back the old Imp Zerker stance talent that reduced damage taken in that stance by 10%. I doubt it will be the former this close to 3.0.2/release even though this idea got alot of support on both US and EU Beta forums. So my money is on the latter (if they intend to change it at all, that is).
Also agree with Shha. There really isn't much a Warrior can do with excess rage; Heroic Strike, and that's it. I wish we had something else to use that makes rotation a bit more interactive. And no, more RNG is not it.
Damage Shield is showing up in combat logs now. I've got a raid so I can't do any checking on it at the moment, but based on what I've seen so far it isn't giving the full 20% of block value. I'm guessing it's calculated before Shield Mastery or something, but it can crit.
I don't think Blizzard wants us to be in a situation where we have so much rage that even Heroic Strike isn't enough to counter our rage generation. It's not a very engaging mechanic, and (at least in raiding) makes one wonder why there's a rage bar at all. It makes Warriors too much like DKs.
They have three options: add a new rage dump, improve an existing rage dump, nerf rage. The last of the three is obviously the least preferable given where TG Warriors are now. The middle one would almost certainly be a change to Heroic Strike as Slam and Execute have already been tagged for other purposes. Victory Rush is another possibility (50 rage normally and free with an on-kill would be inefficient, but that's the point). The first option is obviously the most interesting, but as Liar noted it's pretty late in the development cycle.
I just read on the official forums that apparently as of 8962, Taste For Blood allows the use of Overpower for the full 5 seconds. That means you could use 3 Overpowers (5 second buff duration, global cooldown 1.5 seconds) for every TfB proc, given that you've got Unrelenting Assault and the necessary rage.
I just read on the official forums that apparently as of 8962, Taste For Blood allows the use of Overpower for the full 5 seconds. That means you could use 3 Overpowers (5 second buff duration, global cooldown 1.5 seconds) for every TfB proc, given that you've got Unrelenting Assault and the necessary rage.
Shifting from all the leather and mail to plate thanks to armored to the teeth should help on the damage taken front.
As items looks right now those few extra strength-points provided by armor from plate versus leather rarely puts the plate-item over the leather equivalence anyway. As example goes the badge-belts, thus rendering any "leather goes to rogues first"-arguments worthless:
Obviously the leather version still owns the rust out of the plate one even if you gain 9 str unless I'm missing something huge here. What Armored to the Teeth really does is making us wanting to actually use our plate-sets though.
I agree Shha, something's gotta give here. We've been promised that the concept of hybrid classes doing less dps is out the window. The new buff stacking system seems to be working pretty well so far but the problem as I see it is that each class still maintains some piece of uniqueness.
Where's the equivalent to Blessing of Kings? Strength of Earth/Windfury Totem? Arcane Brilliance? Power Word:Fortitude? Unless there's something new that's coming in that says two buffs with different gains don't stack anymore, then I don't see where warriors are getting that "uniqueness" from.
Sunder Armor has been somewhat given to Rogues, Battle Shout to Paladins, Commanding Shout to Warlocks, Rampage -> Leader of the Pack, Trauma -> Mangle, Blood Frenzy -> Blood Poisoning, Mortal Strike -> Wound Poison, Thunderclap -> Infected Wounds/Judgements of the Just, Demoralizing Shout -> Curse of Weakness. Anyone else see where I'm going with this? Where warriors were once one of the absolute best debuffers/buffers in game, we're now completely obsolete.
We are, as it stands, the only class that you could completely do away with in a raid scenario and lose no benefit. If you want to say that our taking abilities vary slightly from the other classes and therefore could give us an edge, then fine. But the same thing goes for the other tanks as well. We currently have zero pure utility. Yes if the local Feral is offline then Rampage is useful. If for some reason your three Rogues don't show up then sure, Mortal Strike and Blood Frenzy are unique. But you could actually create a 25 man raid with not a single Warrior and still have every single buff/debuff available to you.
We've gone from being the one class that was always guaranteed to be in every single raid, to the one class that doesn't have to be at all.
In light of the current situation we should far and away put out the most dps in a raid scenario, which is not true nor likely to become so. So I honestly think our 45-50 point talent should either be some very unique and useful raid buff/debuff, or our dps performance needs to skyrocket.
Edit: Currently I see warrior development turning to this (my signature).
You guys are being incredibly myopic. It's not uniqueness through buffs/debuffs anymore, stop thinking of it that way. Here, let's turn that uniqueness argument around on another class: affliction warlock.
Malediction CoE: Unholy Deathknight
Felhunter buff: Mage and Priest versions better
Frailty Curse of Recklessness: Feral
Curse of Weakness: Feral or Warrior
Blood Pact: Warrior
Woe unto affliction warlocks, they provide nothing unique to raids anymore!
That uniqueness you listed, those are exceptions, not the rule. SoE and Windfury are covered by Death Knights, btw. And I'd hardly consider AI some uniqueness worth writing home from. Yes, some classes are going to have ONE unique buff, the important ones being MoTW, Fort, and Kings. Those are non-stacking exceptions, not any reason to go crying to developers.
You'll get into raids for the same reason most of the other dps did: you're good at what you do. They're still fine tuning numbers, so just sit tight. Hunter dps over the last two builds supposedly has gone down from 3k dps to 1.8k dps.
I've got a better idea, take this quote from your post:
But you could actually create a 25 man raid with not a single Warrior and still have every single buff/debuff available to you.
That should be good thing. Everytime someone didn't show up and you had to cancel your raid because a vital buff was missing...you should WANT that type of uniqueness gone.
What one buff has made you cancel your raid before? I can understand there being a lack of tanks, or a lack of healers, or perhaps even a lack of dps. I can understand there being no Protection warrior/paladin for Illidan. These are issues that I can understand, and are not really being addressed in terms of canceling raids based on some class not attending. I personally have never canceled a raid because we didn't have an Enhancement Shaman bringing improved Windfury, nor because we didn't have a paladin with Blessing of Kings, and I find it very hard to believe that you somehow end up getting a raid day where not a single priest shows up and therefore cancel the raid. If you don't have enough of a class to do something then ok, cancel the raid. But I can't think of a single "buff" that could make or break a raid.
Being good at what you do works both ways. If you're good at what you do and so is that other Feral Druid who brings an Innervate and Combat Ress, who are you going to take in a min/max situation? Are you going to measure 10% more personal dps versus an Innervate and Combat Ress? Or how about that 10% dps vs the mana regeneration of a Hunter/Shadow Priest?
Ok SoE and Windfury are covered, is Heroism? You don't think 676(?) mana at level 70 as well as some spellcrit and mana regeneration is a pretty hefty buff? Yeah ok we don't benefit much as warriors but I bet all the other mana-using classes aren't going to be happy.
As for affliction warlocks not having any uniqueness either, that doesn't make me happy at all. I feel the same thing should therefore go for them as well, give them something at least minor that makes them unique (Shadow Embrace has been changed I see now, nevermind). Besides, you've narrowed the selection down to one talent tree of a class, warriors as a whole have nothing unique. I could be wrong, if you know of some buff/debuff/ability that makes us unique then by all means bring it to light and I'll take back everything I've said.
One unique buff is more than no unique buffs. In some cases, that one unique buff is a very useful buff. 10% to all stats is huge. Soulstones/Combat Resses are also huge. If there is another class out there in the same situation I'm not going to say all is well; rather that we're both sucking air at the back of the pack when it comes to WotLK raids. Don't assume that because there's two classes in a shitty situation that all is well - Fix BOTH issues.
By the way, I'm assuming this is just a tooltip error on mmo-champion but the latest warlock demonology tree shows Metamorphosis lasting until canceled. Kinda curious (if this is intended) as to why that would have no counterbalance and infinite duration.
On the topic of warlocks, unless Healthstones have been changed to also incur a "sickness" effect or now share a cooldown with potions, Healthstones are very very useful, and can be given by any warlock. I really never intended this to be limited to a spec by spec discussion as you can relatively easily change your talents, but it's much much harder to change your class.
Deathwing, you have a few very valid points in what you're saying but we're warriors! We like to paint everything in black! Joke aside, when it comes to Malediction, I'm pretty sure no decent raiding guild is going to keep an unholy death knight in the raid for long since it's supposedly "the pvp-tree" although Blizzard has consistently been trying to get away from such ways to put the truth. Anyway, Frost / Blood is considered the PvE trees as far as I'm concerned, might be wrong though.
Pointing that out Malediction is probably still "unique" to a raid in the sense of the fact not too many are going to use an unholy Death Knight for raids. Although I admit I'm not sure if the same doesn't apply to affliction as well since I'm not keeping track of how much it has been buffed versus destruction builds.
On the more interesting topic of raid spots, anyone claiming that "maximizing raids is no more" is wrong. The only thing they've accomplished is to (probably) removed those raids that were cancelled due to a missing buff and closing gaps between those performing the worst to those on the other end, performing the best. It doesn't matter how many hours Blizzard spends trying to balance, one class with a certain amount of gear will always have an edge over some other at different points in itemization. The fact that many buffs can be covered by other classes actually allows more maximizing of raids. As an example I'll take the fury warrior, or even arms warrior. Usually in the raid for providing battle shout and so on. Why take a warrior in front of a rogue? Let's face it, he'll never do the same amount of damage as a rogue, granted equal skill and gear. Sure, it's this "granted equal skill and gear"-part that's interesting to those opposing my opinions. But it goes two ways really, in a serious raiding environment where players already are skilled enough to play their classes and where maximizing raids are more important than relationships on the internet the warrior will very rarely get a spot over the rogue (bosses where the warrior can cleave might be one of those places a warrior could get a spot).
My point is for truly maximizing raids you'll just let out the classes that lack after, although I give you that WotlK closes the gaps and makes it only a few percents after. Even if the warrior is only about 10 % after the rogue, or perhaps only 5 %, why take him when he provides no buff at all except those already covered from other sources? Because he's a friend of yours or a cheerful player is the usual argument. But what does this really mean? It means; casuals, rejoice! You may now play with your friends and still have a great raid going! (Nothing wrong about that, don't get me wrong)
But it also means; hardcorers, recruit more of the class that really performs the absolutely best and start maximizing the raid to hell. 3 rogues, enhancement shaman + retribution paladin = new melee group anyone? Because at the moment no serious raiding guild in front of a hard boss that requires min/maxing will take a warrior for anything but tanking.
My guild went through the majority of Mt. Hyjal without a single feral. This presumption that everyone has a friendly neighborhood 100% attendance feral is just that... a presumption. Besides, in the new system of raid buffs redundancy isn't necessarily a bad thing. What happens when your feral (for example) bites it hard? You've just lost lotp. Voila! Your fury warr's rampage kicks in.
If the absence of one buff has never made you cancel your raids before...what's the problem then? I surely hope you're not in a situation where your guild not only has 25 other players just as dependable and skilled as you and are playing "better" classes, but is also willing to boot you to the curb come raid time because of you class choice. I don't think Blizzard will be tuning raids around the best possible combos. Yes, I know their past history suggests otherwise, but their intentions seem clear to the opposite this time around.
I'm not going to argue that some classes do have some uniqueness. Though, ask the prot pallies if buffing the raid with BoS every 30 minutes is what gets them their jollies. Hell, ask yourself that now. Providing your group with battle shout excite you? Providing uniqueness to the raid shouldn't be the apex of your enjoyment.
Yes, I did pick just affliction locks. But I think all three trees provide nothing unique if you look into it. Shadow Embrace was changed, btw, doesn't debuff physical damage anymore. It's more a PvP debuff now, reducing HoT effectiveness.
Aylene:
Unholy tanking looks to be the best DK tanking tree, IMO. Out of Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, or Vampiric Blood, which would you rather have? Ebon Plaguebringer is just a few talents away.
That's the thing, if Blizzard does the numbers right, rogues and warriors should be equal in dps. Yes, I know raid maximizing is still around. As I said above, I think the key difference is that I don't think Blizzard will be tuning to that.
It's been stated many times in a number of caster threads, but the law of large numbers comes into play. That is, chances are that even if Rogues or Paladins are clearly better than Warriors, chances are the best Warrior you can find is better than the 3rd or 4th Rogue/Paladin/Enhancement Shaman/Feral.
That's not enough in and of itself, but there will be Warriors in raids because skill still counts for something.
I'm not entirely happy with where Fury is myself, but so long as we're still in beta I'm hoping our feedback will help Blizzard fix matter.
Some paladins want BoK removed because it's an irreplaceable buff. Blizzard has repeatedly said that if there's any raid-crucial buffs left around, they'll get attention as well. Combat rezes were mentioned specifically as something that doesn't get much benefit from stacking. If your raid ditches you for a druid because they can combat rez, tell them to stop dying so much.
Speaking as an affliction warlock, we're redundant because we're replaced by moonkin, not unholy DKs. A moonkin brings maledictin and CoR, at the same time, while we have to pick between one and give up one of our highest-damage spells to do so. My reaction? Horay. I get to use a damage spell because someone else covered the buff. I, for one, know my raid slot is guaranteed in my guild. No, you don't get your raid spot because of your raid debuff anymore. Neither do I. It was dumb that you did, and the game is better without it.
Guilds aren't going to stack 10-15 of the best class because, if blizzard balances it tightly enough, the 'bestness' will get swallowed up by the fight-to-fight variations as much as the individual skill. Now, unless you intend to recruit 60 top-line people so you can switch in 15 mages, 15 rogues, 15 hunters, and 15 locks depending on whether you have an AoE fight, a melee-friendly fight, a stand-and-nuke fight or a high-AC stand-and-nuke fight (and 5 paladins and 5 shamans to swap out for AoE and direct healing as well), you're going to get better performance out of running a reasonably balanced raid group from the recruiting pool available to you. There are enough knobs they can twist from fight to fight to kill any notion of 'best,' running from AC to mobility to fight duration (mana pools) to AoE (two-target, 3-target, n-target, clumped, spread, single-tank, multi-tank) to survivability to agro-sensitivity. Stop worrying.
You guys are being incredibly myopic. It's not uniqueness through buffs/debuffs anymore, stop thinking of it that way. Here, let's turn that uniqueness argument around on another class: affliction warlock.
Malediction CoE: Unholy Deathknight
Felhunter buff: Mage and Priest versions better
Frailty Curse of Recklessness: Feral
Curse of Weakness: Feral or Warrior
Blood Pact: Warrior
Woe unto affliction warlocks, they provide nothing unique to raids anymore!
That uniqueness you listed, those are exceptions, not the rule. SoE and Windfury are covered by Death Knights, btw. And I'd hardly consider AI some uniqueness worth writing home from. Yes, some classes are going to have ONE unique buff, the important ones being MoTW, Fort, and Kings. Those are non-stacking exceptions, not any reason to go crying to developers.
You'll get into raids for the same reason most of the other dps did: you're good at what you do. They're still fine tuning numbers, so just sit tight. Hunter dps over the last two builds supposedly has gone down from 3k dps to 1.8k dps.
I've got a better idea, take this quote from your post:
That should be good thing. Everytime someone didn't show up and you had to cancel your raid because a vital buff was missing...you should WANT that type of uniqueness gone.
You misunderstand my post. But lets take your example. It would be fitting IF :
- Affliction warlocks did 20% less damage then other casters
- Affliction warlocks took 10% more damage then other casters
- Affliction warlocks generated more threat, and were deprived of threat dumps of other casters.
However it doesnt seem to be the case. Again, Im fine with the uniqueness being gone. The problem is right now warriors are unique - we are unique with all the NEGATIVES listed above, and we dont counter it with positive values.
Lets look at it closer. How likely it is that you wont have 2 paladins and a rogue in a 25 man? Not much likely. So you have BF and BS covered through might/whatever the rogue talent is called. Fine we have now a spot for melee. Now will you choose a rogue or a warrior - mind it, both have their debuffs "covered" already. Will you bring a rogue who takes less damage, possibly can remove the pivotal boss skills via CloS, vanish and generally has less aggro - or a warrior?
Affliction warlocks even when their debuffs are covered (and malediction is covered by moonkins i believe better then DK), are still a good standalone dpser in expansion. Warriors - not so much atm. Even better - if affliction warlock curse debuffs are covered, he can still use a dps curse. If we have a feral our rampage is completely useless, and we dont get anything in return. etc etc.
Another thing - please stop using argument of "people will be brought based on skill now blah blah blah". Its pointless. If they are, then we can safely buff warriors right? Since it wont change anything. Truth is some raid stacking will be there, and if one class underperforms like warriors (more maintenance, less dps, no utility), it will be shunned out.
Remember also - the "real buffs" are not everything. Classes bring stuff to raids thats not that easily codified. Warlocks banish or enslave demons (muru anyone?). Mages sheep or spellsteal. Priests dispel stuff. Rogues stunlock mobs. Etc etc. Warriors .... ugh? Swing at mobs? We could be unique with tanking, but frankly a dps warrior as OT is right now a very far choice on the list. We dont heal, we dont combat res, we dont cc ... we just dps. And we arent even particularly good at it. Couple it with lack of unique buffs and then TOGETHER you have a problem.
Think as well - we have like maybe 20 categories of debuffs/buffs. Maybe 30. Each class can bring like 2-5 - on average 3-4. So 10 people properly specced cover ALL your need for debuffs/buffs. That means 15 raid spots (majority), will be based on personal output - survivability as a tank, healing per second output, dps , things like that. If your class underperforms there,
Again - an arms warriors brings same debuffs as combat rogue . Battleshout is replaced in any reasonable 25 man by might so it doesnt count. So why exactly arms warriors cant do same dps as combat rogues? And even if they would - why they take a lot more damage then combat rogues, offering nothing in return?
Although this topic has been beaten to death in every single class thread on these forums the point made by Deathwing still holds. The goal Blizzard seems to be working towards is that min/maxing should be done among PLAYERS instead of CLASSES. You'll take the best players because class distinctions are marginalized in order to highlight player performance. If warriors aren't balanced out to be equivalent dps replacements to any other melee than lets discuss what needs fixing but the 'I'm never going to get in a raid as a warrior' stuff is a bit much.
I'm not worried about losing my raid spot to a Rogue/Feral Druid/Deathknight etc. What I am frustrated with is how warriors seem to have been pushed to the side. We do the exact same dps as a Feral Druid, don't survive nearly as well, have no utility to call our own and are told to sit tight and wait for Wrath to hit, and maybe even wait for a few months after that so they can sort out the initial bugs.
I'm not saying I'm going to lose my spot to another class because they can combat ress if someone dies. It's the concept that Blizzard says they're doing away with the "unique-ness" factor and yet we seem to be the only class affected by it so far.
Maybe give us a version of Heroism/Bloodlust? Call to Arms: [identical description/buff as Heroism/Bloodlust]. Give us something new and interesting, the last new and interesting thing we got was removed (read: Heroic Leap, ok it was useless in most aspects of the game but it was FUN). Our Titan Grip is practically the last new and interesting thing and what kills it for me is how it's developing.
"Here's a really neat 51 point talent, we're not going to tell you how you're placing at end-game situations, nor are we going to give you enough information to decide whether this is necessary or not, but we're going to counterbalance it so it isn't too good. We won't even tell you what 'too good' actually is. We're not going to respond to the fact that what we say and what is currently the issue do not correlate at all. Have fun swinging more pixels than the other classes for no apparent benefit."
The warrior class is, in general, getting poor design/development. Plate itemization has been and is bad. Our talents are overall lackluster, our saving grace in terms of dps being the mechanics of rage and Heroic Strike.
For example, in regards to talents and the new hybrid outlook:
Why was Flurry nerfed to 25% from 30%? Of the three classes with Flurry, ours is the worst. I can see the justification in live if Blizzard didn't want us to do the same dps as Rogues and saw Flurry as one way to cut into our dps a bit. Seeing as how they're doing away with that mentality in Wrath, can they not give us our old Flurry back? Can't they reverse some of the nerfs we've been handed over the past few years/months/whatever to bring our dps up to par, or at the very least just to make us a bit more happy? Enrage gives a 10% damage increase, and it's a chance when we take damage as opposed to guaranteed when we're critted. Can we have Deathwish stack with Enrage again?
Perhaps even keep Flurry at 25% and change Unending Fury to grant a 2% haste buff every time we crit for 6 (easily modifiable) seconds, stacking 5 times. That would give us something similar to a 35% Flurry. Ok it's not amazing but it's better than what we currently have and it's infinitely more interesting of a concept.
I just want to see more innovation and imagination put into the warrior development. Taste for Blood and Sudden Death seem more interesting at least than just spamming the same 3-4 buttons over and over again for 6 minutes. I know Blizzard's trying to move away from the RNG factor but at least it gives diversity to an otherwise rather simplistic and boring rotation.
I could care less if I do 95% of a Rogue's dps in WotLK so long as I get to do it and have fun doing it. Change is good, give us change.
My apologies if I'm venting, but I'm just really frustrated with the turns warriors have been taking in WotLK.
Shha's post above sums 90% of my frustration very eloquently. We are still the only class that has the constant staple of "Here's X, but because you get X you must suffer through Y as well."
Although this topic has been beaten to death in every single class thread on these forums the point made by Deathwing still holds. The goal Blizzard seems to be working towards is that min/maxing should be done among PLAYERS instead of CLASSES. You'll take the best players because class distinctions are marginalized in order to highlight player performance. If warriors aren't balanced out to be equivalent dps replacements to any other melee than lets discuss what needs fixing but the 'I'm never going to get in a raid as a warrior' stuff is a bit much.
The problems aren't too complex and have been stated a few times. Fury needs another rage dump and the top of the fury tree is fairly bad. Taking a look at the WOTLK plate dps gear, it looks like sooner or later you will be able to get the 15-20% hit needed to elimitate the TG penalty and really smooth out your rage gen. In fact, it should be pretty massive. What do we get though? Our 45-50 point, the place that should have one of our best talents in the tree, is a 5 point 5 rage reduction in WW, slam and Bloodthirst. PvE geared fury warriors are going to have plenty of rage and we get a rage reduction talent in that spot? Simply put it needs to be better, much better. It was originally a more powerful talent but for some reason, when blizzard removed the enraged assault part of it, they didnt add anything back in!
09/18/08, 6:55 PM
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