Enraged assault was removed because yet another instant attack was deemed undesirable. In fact plenty of people on the beta forums decried it as just that (yes there were others that liked the ability and saw it as a fun extension of the new enrage mechanic). The devs then replaced it with the self-heal in part to help smooth out some of the survivability issues mentioned in this thread.

As Slam does not reset swing timer any more, but delay it, couldn't it be considered as an acceptable rage dump, even for Fury warrior ? I suppose that to be effective dps gain, Slam then shouldn't delay off-hand swing timer, I still have to do the calc'.

I'd like Bladestorm to also apply Rend on every target of the WW. It still feels strange to me to have a kind of WW-only talent as Arms 51 pointer.

Well, a 1.5 sec delay of the swing timer , i.e. missing out on 1.5 seconds of white dps and rage gain could possibly be worth it if only the MH is delayed. I don't think this is how it works though. Since HS took a hefty hit in damage/rage after the +15% miss rate it may be worth it to think about slam as a rage dump (hmm, UF could actually be worth something for that). I'll try to dig up some numbers and do the maths.

edit:
Weapon: The Jawbone, 2hander, 203.6 dps, 3.6 speed, 733 average weapon damage * 2
AP: 5k
hit: 20%
crit: 30%
(exp. capped, 0% haste, 100% flurry->2.88 sec weapon speed, 25% glances)
Assuming base miss will be 28 vs bosses at lvl 80 too. No 2h spec, UF and no Incite.

White swing hits for: D = 733+5000/14*2.88 = 1762
White dps:
wdps_mh = [D*0.25*0.76 + D * (1 - 0.3 - 0.25 - (0.28-0.20)) + 2.06*D*0.3 ] / 2.88 = 721
wdps_tot = 1.625*wdps_mh = 1171

Rage/sec gain (assuming normalization at 80 will be c=320.6, from using a formula at wowwiki):
rps = [(15*3372/(4*320.6) + 0.3*(7+3.5)*2.88/2 + (1-0.3-(0.28-0.2))*(3.5+1.75)*2.88/2 ] / 2.88 =
= 16.9

Rage lost from an average MH swing:
rlost = 15*2076/(4*320.6) + 0.3*7*2.88/2 + (1-0.3-(0.28-0.2))*3.5*2.88/2 = 30.4

Damage lost from a 1.5 sec delay (assuming both weapons are delayed):
1.5*1171 = 1757

Rage lost from a 1.5 sec delay
1.5*16.9 = 25.4

HS damage:
(D+495) * (1 - 0.3 -(0.24-0.2)) + 2.27*(D+495)*0.3 = 3027
damage gain= 3027-2076 = 951
HS rage cost (not improved, no glyph) = 15+30.4 = 45.4
HS DPR = 20.95

Slam damage:
(733+250+5000/14*3.6) * (1 - 0.3 -(0.24-0.2)) + 2.27*(733+250+5000/14*3.6)*0.3 = 3042
damage gain = 4422 - 1757 = 1285
Slam rage cost = 15 + 25.4 = 40.4
Slam DPR = 31.8

Conclusion:
Oops I really didn't expect that. Did I forget something? Slam seem to be the obvious choice for a rage dump, it has 1.5 times the efficiency compared to HS. The proper way of using it would be to make sure to only use when you're not close to other cd's and have plenty of rage. The gcd limitation will make HS a good choice as well, but if you can spare the gcd and have rage, slam is excellent.

edit2: minor corrections
edit3: major correction, had miscalculated slam damage
edit4: numbers changed again, stupid miscalculation

I prefer arms as the spam-slam build to be honest.

It's worth noting that currently warrior talents are a work in progress, the top end of fury is still pretty lackluster, arms seems to be very "odd" with taste for blood seemingly allowing for 3 overpowers per proc. The essence of all this though is that talents aren't finalized yet. Suggestions on how to improve the current talents are "ok", blatant whining about how noone will want to bring a X class anymore to a raid, is getting a tad tedious.

My take on how fury should get fixed would be.
-Reset Bloodthirst to a no-weapon ability, so it doesn't get TG hit penalty.
-Add a CC-immunity(for 5-10 secs?) to Heroic fury, making it the "Arg, there is a warrior in my face"-pvp-talent.
-Add a 2% stacking haste/AP/Crit (/ meaning OR, not AND) proc to Unending fury, 5 stacks, 15 sec duration, with 20%/40%/60%/80%/100% proc chance on crits.

Leather/Plate could be solved by just giving warriors a crappier agi->crit conversion (or better str->AP). If leather (for warriors) is inferior to Plate in all respects, they can tune warrior dps around plate drops instead of worrying about us sneaking some rogue gear.

I'm personally debating if i want to level my Warrior or my Mage once WotLK lands. The soul of my feral druid died when they admitted that the druid would be very powerful with optimal gear, so they are balancing druids around not putting those items in the game. Another 12 months searching around for odd drops is not what i want.

Is Armed to the Teeth working for everyone? I logged on this morning for a while and when I took off my shield my STR only went down by 23, the amount that was on the shield itself. I didn't have time to check with any other armour pieces.

Solarians Sapphire also has an interesting bug with booming voice if anyone has noticed. It gives a separate buff to your battle shout which only lasts 2 minutes even with booming voice, which kind of defeats the purpose of booming voice shout duration if you have to rebuff every 2 mins still.

I've swapped from fury TG to prot and I have to say its a hell of a lot of fun. Wearing a mix of mostly dps gear and a few tank pieces for block value I was very pleasantly surprised to see how much damage you can output in def stance. With all of the extra buttons to push its a lot more involving than fury was too. I love the way they are going with prot not quite as much with fury tho unfortunately.

Seems like you have to wait 30s, before your charscreen updates.

Ah, that's the error, thanks for pointing it out. I was a bit concerned at the very high damage I was getting for Slam .
Will edit my post.

Except slam also holds your offhand swing timer.

The white damage loss would be too great I'm afraid. Maybe.

Heroic throw also delays the swing timer, which is odd.

TClap got nerfed, Devastate will be getting nerfed, apparently, instead of buffing fury/arms, while bear threat is getting buffed (not needed, but whatever) and paladins got a bit buffed further (and they already generated more threat..). I understand the fury (especially, although arms isn't good either) concerns, but I still think toning down prot is not the way to solve it. I just hope the nerf won't be that bad, now that prot dps while not tanking (esp. in tanking gear) was not completely meaningless any more.

This close to going live and they apparently have no idea when their "big" number pass will occur (will it be only one? That obviously won't work). Or has it begun and it isn't that noticeable? Yeah, I know, they can balance it after launch.. but will warriors, again, be left in the dust at launch for a fear that we scale too well and any buff might be over the top?

I agree that there is too much whining going on but there is one key point that is valid. I'll try putting them in a list where one argument follows another, so you can see how I got there.

1) Debuffs will not be class specific anymore. Results in:
2) You bring people because of their skill and gear which in a DPSers case is easily measured by how much DPS he does. This results in:
3) Warriors will do equal damage to everyone else, including Rogues. So far so good, right? However, it doesn't stop there. Warriors take more babysitting and more damage so something needs to compensate. This results in:
4) Warriors will do more damage than classes that take less babysitting to compensate for this.

4) and 3) are in direct disagreement here. You can't have both without breaking the system. Warriors either do Rogue DPS while taking more damage or they do more damage than Rogues so you bring Warriors in their place. This is not working. Warrior penalties have to go. Berserker Stance is outdated. Death Wish damage penalty is outdated and absolutely silly now that the fear immunity part is gone. Ditto for Recklessness.

Have you ever done Felmyst as a Warrior? It gets really really ugly during a gas nova when you pop Recklessness and Death Wish while you sit in Berserker stance (not that we have a choice). You are taking 40% more damage there than a Rogue and the best thing is, at any point they could CloS to get out of encapsulate or to stop incoming damage on top of their DPS.

There is just too much raid wide AoE going to keep penalties in game as is. It's silly and detrimental for balancing all DPS classes to be equal.

That was included in my calculations, I calculated the damage gain of slam as:
<Average slam damage> - <total white dps>*1.5
And the same for rage generation. So it should be accurate.

It would be cool if anyone in beta could try to see if it's possible to do something like this in practice (or PTR I guess, not sure when I'll have time to do some testing of my own). In principle I guess you should have a few free gcd's in any given cycle (gcd's saved for Bloodsurge procs and so on) where Slam could be used if at high rage. It might be a way to push TG dps a little bit higher.

Yeah, I tried, a bunch of people from my guild got invites recently (including me). However, 80% gave up due to beta latency and instability, and I certainly can't test by myself.

@Liar: as much as I want stance penalties to go (and buffing stances as well), they have been mute about it and it's one of the eldest topics on the forums. Considering how willing they were to share changes that would occur, I doubt they will touch this..

If I'm understanding correctly, the two dps warrior concerns brought up recently are with regards to the extra damage we take and the lack of any new variety in fury rotations. I certainly can't argue that there's no validity to these points but I wonder if they are totally not being addressed conceptually or if the numbers just don't work out for it yet.

With respect to the damage penalty, it seems that conceptually the idea is that Arms warriors will want to make use of Battle Stance more now for Rend and Overpower procs and for Fury warriors the health gains from BT will make up for extra damage taken. Now barring where the numbers are at presently, does this concept work? Does it address the problems with 'zerker stance's damage-taken penalty if the numbers were adjusted? On live, it seems I've always had much more health than the rogues so I've also considered that as a way of addressing the damage penalty but I can see why that's an incomplete solution.

As for the lack of new variety in Fury, here's a few thoughts. Firstly, I am happy to NOT have to keep Rampage up since between it, 2 shouts (and occasionally TC for a non warrior tank) it was one too many non damage dealing things to fool with and we all would rather use GCDs for stuff that makes the combat text numbers fly. Currently on PTR I enjoy the variety of Sudden Death procs with a 52/9/0 build. It's fun waiting for it so that hopefully you get to see a huge 8-9k execute crit. That kind of variety is entertaining and I think the design is for Bloodsurge slams to kind of fill that role in fury. Is the problem just that BS slams just aren't that interesting of a proc conceptually or is it just that the numbers don't make it worth it?

Honestly GCDs are such a luxury that I *might* have a chance at putting up a 5 sunder in like a minute... Weaving in slams just does not feel right (I've tried) but I was not sure if it was doing more damage or not.

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I enjoy this forum and your contributions a lot and I'll make a suggestion of my own hoping it will not sound too silly.

The devs absolutely want a penalty for TG because they think it scales too well. We also know that the warrior as a whole scales with his gear.
So why couldn't they make the TG penalty scaling with gear ? They could use the average ilvl of the warrior gear or the average ilvl of his weapons. Like this using the ilvl of a lvl 80 green item (or less) there would be no penalty and when you upgrade your gear, the penalty increases.

(On a side note it's sad when we are at the point where all we are doing is thinking about how we can nerf ourselves...)

What happens when an item of lower item level is better than one of a higher item value?

Besides that don't also forget incite and the HS glyph.Moreover with 24% hit on whites i see HS usable in almost every mainhand swing.

Landsoul, you are right, sometimes lower level items are sometimes better. However, it is rarely the case for weapons, therefore average ilvl of weapons could be used (and I don't think it would force to use lower level weapons because we need the dps offered by higher level weapons). I'm maybe wrong here since I'm much more used to arms than to fury and I know weapon dps matter less to fury than to arms.

Darmon, I agree that the DPS warrior in its current state is bad and it could be fixed in a large number of ways. I really hope the devs fix this and my suggestion was just a way to implement a penalty to TG when everything else will be in a better shape.

I just don't like the "We nerf you know because next year with 2 season 9 weapons you will be too strong !".

I did a quick check on having Incite+Imp HS+HS glyph (that would be a very odd spec with TG though, you won't have Incite at 80 in all likelihood) vs having UF for slam. Values change to:
HS damage: 3457
HS damage gain: 1381
HS rage: 12+30.4-0.45*10 = 37.9
DPR = 36.4

Slam damage gain (not changed): 1285
Slam rage: 10+25.4
DPR = 36.3

Very close indeed. But as mentioned above you will likely not have Incite at lvl 80.

edit:
Had to change the original post, realised that I made yet another mistake.

Imp HS and HS glyph => DPR = 981/(12+30.4-3) = 24.9
Conclusion still holds, at lvl 80 slam is superior to HS as a rage dump, if you have free gcd's. Seems you won't have that many free gcd's though so the point is kind of moot.

The above comparison between HS and Slam as rage dump seems to take into account only the DPR. But what about unlimited rage situation? Although I don't have numbers to back it up, I have the impression that any end-game TG fury warrior will have close to unlimited rage (once the hit penalty is fully compensated by gears).

In unlimited rage situation, wouldn't sticking to using solely Slam be counter-productive? Ditto for Heroic Strike. Each skill entails its own cost (for slam, suspended swing; for HS, lost rage generation). Wouldn't, then, using a combination of HS and Slam be the most optimal way of dumping rage? For example, using 1 HS for every 1 Slam, instead of spamming Slam alone.

You can't scale TG backwards as your weapons ilvl increases because as your gear gets better your AP contribution will increase in comparison to your actual weapon dps and you would likely get everyone using green weapons and large ap values to 'cheat' the scaling.

Personally I don't quite get the reasoning behind the 15% hit penalty because, as others have already said, all it does is penalise warriors with worse gear. If they needed to bring TG dps back in line (god knows why because I'm killing things nearly as fast as prot with a shield ) because of some perceived imbalance somewhere in the future, a flat 15% penalty will be outgeared sooner or later and become irrelevant.

With the way the itemisation seems to be going I don't see the current implementation of TG or its penalty going anywhere. Maybe I'm being slightly cynical but Armed to the Teeth seems like just a bone to throw at us because leather items were so obviously going to be superior, again. It is a good talent, especially for prot but it still seems like an excuse for them to give us worse stats on our gear.

Inherently I think all of the issues we have go back to the way our class scales with gear. Back during original naxx i doubt they wanted fury warriors to do quite the level of damage we were doing, and they seem bent on making sure we don't get back there again.

Rage is a wasted mechanic because we are literally swimming in it in raids while dpsing, rather than having something active to dump it with we have to basically generate no mainhand rage with heroic strikes in order to actually get use from it. I'd rather fury had a no cooldown strike that costs 70+ rage so we have something as a proper dump for rage.

I've played and loved my warrior for 3 years pretty much the whole time as fury and it's kinda sad when I'm far more excited about playing as prot than fury.

Well, in a truly unlimited rage situation (i.e. you're permanently stuck on 100 rage due to incoming damage) the best possible way of doing damage will be back to back slamming (unless you're hasted below 1.5 sec) combined with BT/WW. This is of course not a valid assumption.

A slightly more realistic approach would be to consider the following situation:
You have 80 rage and have just had a MH+OH white swing and a BT/WW. BT/WW will become available in 6 sec and you have no other gcd's to push. What's the best option to getting the most dps out in that time period with the given rage? If we go only on my calculations above we'll find that 3*slam is the best option in terms of damage (unless you have Incite). It's extremely counterintuitive for someone who's used to thinking in the old mindset of slam resetting the swing timer and using 2*1h, but unless I've made any severe math mistakes it seems to be true (mind you, I have already done three corrections to the post, so please check the maths if you doubt it).

What the rage per sec calculations tell you is that it's better to save your rage and do slams when you get free gcd than to use it up on a HS. But from what landsoul is saying it seems that you have very few gcd's to spare, this means that you run a risk of getting >100 rage before being able to dump if you only want to use slam. In this case HS will be better (or perhaps a combination if possible).