WotLK talent Preview/Discussion - Page 89

Mercy XXVI · 09/19/08, 11:46 AM

So, I was giving the Stances some thought last night, and while I don't particularly care about Zerker stance's downside (while I do agree it is outmoded and a bit silly), I can't fathom even for a second why they still have the -damage penalty for Defensive stance. If threat in Wrath is going to be so heavily damage based, why the hell are you needlessly gimping our Tank Stance? It completely goes against everything they are trying to do, and I don't think anyone would complain if they were to at the very least remove that penalty.

Deathwing · 09/19/08, 12:02 PM

So that you'll take improved defensive stance, duh. More seriously, would you be that surprised that they did all of that just so that they could ensure tanks could use enraged regeneration at any time?

Danin · 09/19/08, 12:12 PM

Off the top of my head, if you were to take the damage penalty off of defensive stance it would become strictly (and by strictly I mean obscenely) better than battle and zerker as a solo/PvP stance. A stance that reduces incoming damage by 10-16%, does 110% the damage of battle stance and has two rushing abilities with more stun abilities than a rogue? Yes please, do want.

Mercy XXVI · 09/19/08, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Danin

Off the top of my head, if you were to take the damage penalty off of defensive stance it would become strictly (and by strictly I mean obscenely) better than battle and zerker as a solo/PvP stance. A stance that reduces incoming damage by 10-16%, does 110% the damage of battle stance and has two rushing abilities with more stun abilities than a rogue? Yes please, do want.

Why 110% the damage of Battle Stance? What am I missing, here? Battle Stance has no penalty, and Def. Stance has -10% damage. Remove that, and you're left with 100% damage.

And it only becomes better for PvP if you're specced Deep Prot, as those stuns, and the Charge are only available there. Most people, even without the damage reduction, probably wouldn't PvP as Prot. Perhaps they would. It would certainly be fun, but I don't think it will be the premier PvP spec.

EDIT: Ah, I see what you fine gents are talking about. I wasn't taking the Enrage from Imp. Defensive Stance into consideration. I imagine in PvE, said Enrage will be up pretty much all the time. For PvP, I don't find that to be the case at all, with so many classes having spells/attacks that we can't block/dodge/parry (Hunters/Casters).

Zegai · 09/19/08, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Danin

Off the top of my head, if you were to take the damage penalty off of defensive stance it would become strictly (and by strictly I mean obscenely) better than battle and zerker as a solo/PvP stance. A stance that reduces incoming damage by 10-16%, does 110% the damage of battle stance and has two rushing abilities with more stun abilities than a rogue? Yes please, do want.

Would it really be that bad if prot PVP used a different stance than the norm? It's not like Berserker stance has any inherently PVP bonuses, it just allows you to use your "get out of the jail" card.

If they do nerf Devastate - as they said - they'll probably have to compensate elsewhere. And I think retuning the stance penalties is an excellent place to do that, as it essentially gives an extra +10% dmg on def stance, without increasing prot DPS with fury gear.

Darkrenown · 09/19/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bogeyman

With the way the itemisation seems to be going I don't see the current implementation of TG or its penalty going anywhere. Maybe I'm being slightly cynical but Armed to the Teeth seems like just a bone to throw at us because leather items were so obviously going to be superior, again. It is a good talent, especially for prot but it still seems like an excuse for them to give us worse stats on our gear.

It doesn't really make up for the loss of stats anyway, leather still seems better for DPS. I do like armoured to the teeth as a tank though, seems like a great way to improve threat scaling with prot gear.

Lithose · 09/19/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

There is just too much raid wide AoE going to keep penalties in game as is. It's silly and detrimental for balancing all DPS classes to be equal.

Really, the twins are an excellent example to..We can barely keep our DPS warrior up, but we found the encounter easier with more rogues due to vanishing for conflags and cloaking off debuffs. Same with Brut, cloaking off burns=Gravy.

Things like Iceblock, Cloak, Vanish, FD and personal "niche" things of the class are now going to decide raid comp. Most classes have these things, warriors don't, they were intentionally designed to be a simple "power house" damage class, with very very little finesse, a kin to old fire mages.

I like the direction they are going, but really, warriors do have a problem here simply due to the design philosophy of their class.."Hulk Smash" isn't going to work anymore....Its not the end of the world, but its not great, either.

Graul · 09/19/08, 1:51 PM

Hurray...

Just so you know, we are going to lower Devastate's damage (likely through the hefty bonus crit damage). We'll compensate Prot's dps in other ways. But Devastate seems to be as much as 40% of Prot's total dps, which is a little high (Shield Slam should be on top if anything). We also don't want dps warriors to think that they're supposed to spec down and get Devastate for the dps.

This is exactly what I said would happen. Instead of actually *fixing* the other trees, they simply take our options away and force 1-2 previously inferior routes. Is this standard Blizzard Modus Opernadi? Make terrible abilities "look more appealing" by ruining other paths? Sure seems like that given the track record.

Deathwing · 09/19/08, 2:04 PM

They're solving the problem in the wrong way too. Devastate's problem is two-fold:

High damage, too high apparently
Enough procs from S&B to not use Revenge at all

Nerfing the S&B crit bonus to devastate only solves one problem, and partially at that. Flurry/Devastate builds are still alive, though those may be ok since they are made to dps anyway.

They could nerf the chance to proc on S&B as well, clearing up the second problem, but then that makes S&B quite lackluster. They really just need to lower the weapon damage percentage, gets everything done in one shot.

Danin · 09/19/08, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

Hurray...

This is exactly what I said would happen. Instead of actually *fixing* the other trees, they simply take our options away and force 1-2 previously inferior routes. Is this standard Blizzard Modus Opernadi? Make terrible abilities "look more appealing" by ruining other paths? Sure seems like that given the track record.

The fact that fury is broken doesn't mean that Devastate in its current form isn't obscenely overpowered.

Edit: If I were to guess I'd say reducing S&B to 10% crit/20% proc and Devastate to 60% weapon damage, although that might be too much of a nerf.

Shha · 09/19/08, 2:13 PM

Well they either stealth buffed arms or its a bug. Currently SD build is obscenely better then anything else warriors have (and it still isnt too overpowered compared to rogues for example). SD like overpower lights up, but allows for multiple executes. With proper gear setup on blasted lands mobs at 70 it didnt go away ONCE for 6 minutes, letting me just spam execute. Now granted - blasted lands mobs arent bosses etc. Still the crit difference isnt that big (socketing for crit etc lets me get to over 60% crit with axe spec in raid environment - to the point where im crit capped = misses + glancings filling all the remaining table).

Danin · 09/19/08, 2:16 PM

Sounds like a bug, yeah. I can't imagine the PvP shitstorm it's going to trigger.

hellord · 09/19/08, 2:24 PM

You can now use up to 3 (if talented) OP when TfB procs. Tooltip says it allows 5 seconds of Overpower.
The real difference is that with fast weapons and high crit rating u can trigger many more executes than OP.
What about Sudden death? does it light up Execute until used or is it time based like TfB?
If the latter is true then it's probably the day where 2handers die.

Graul · 09/19/08, 2:38 PM

I haven't actually been able to test it on a "??" dummy after the most recent patch, because I think they gave them all lvl 83 boss armor (I was able to hit them no problem, just that with 3k AP and a 2h my average hit was only 85 dmg...), but I really can't see how even after the ToB change that it's better than just staying in Berserker and alternating Slam and Execute.

Shha · 09/19/08, 2:43 PM

Lol I'm dumb. Just disregard whatever i posted about SD.... Im just sleepy and didnt think. After so long using Dummies (and you cant anymore because for some reason instead of boss lvl they are 80), I just approached the testing brainless. Now think again why I can use multiple executes per SD proc on BLASTED LANDS MOBS

mistersix · 09/19/08, 2:57 PM

I found this post regarding TG from ghostcrawler interesting:

"If your dps is 15% lower than a rogue, we're not going to make up for that difference by buffing a single talent to account for such a big proportion of your dps. More than likely we would handle this through adjusting the damage on higher ranks of abilities, improving base stats or stat conversions, or possibly even changing stance or rage mechanics. We could also lower the rogue dps through similar adjustments. It's not always easy to determine whether class A needs to be buffed to catch class B, or if class B needs to be nerfed."

source

I find it hopeful that they are willing to consider a number of solutions even at this late stage in the process. Any of the options could be nice. Some even potentially applicable to other problems in other trees like the stats, stat conversion, stance or rage tweaks.

Deathwing · 09/19/08, 2:58 PM

Well, none of caught it either until you mentioned it. I think that's self-sig worthy.

Graul · 09/19/08, 3:00 PM

Tweaking AoTT would be a start, but then it would become too powerful for a tier 1 talent and if placed in tier 2 out of reach of Protection unless they decided to forego even more points in Arms. Also, that quote is a bit out dated if you line it up with many of the other posts by GC that followed.

Lithose · 09/19/08, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

I haven't actually been able to test it on a "??" dummy after the most recent patch, because I think they gave them all lvl 83 boss armor (I was able to hit them no problem, just that with 3k AP and a 2h my average hit was only 85 dmg...), but I really can't see how even after the ToB change that it's better than just staying in Berserker and alternating Slam and Execute.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

You could do the above build, don't forget, improved MS is being lowered to 3 points for +10% and a 5 second cool down, which looks like it will make is somewhat more viable to stay in battle. With TM in arms and flurry/BF giving you 21% haste+ER, its also not inconcievable that your rage incoming would be enough to justify a swap for 3 OPs...

The problem is, with 5 seconds, you would need to swap and do the first OP in .5..I'm not sure if the rage loss would be worth it for 2 overpowers.

Graul · 09/19/08, 3:09 PM

Flurry doesn't seem like it could possibly make up for the loss of Wrecking Crew and SD. And Bladestrom is actually quite good for PvE purposes. Trying to use Slam with Flurry (and WF) also seems counterproductive, even after the change to Slam.

I would try this out instead: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Which would actually end up being 51/20 after the MS change. Or, if you find Bladestorm to be too situationally useful, 50/21.

Lithose · 09/19/08, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

Flurry doesn't seem like it could possibly make up for the loss of Wrecking Crew and SD. And Bladestrom is actually quite good for PvE purposes.

I would try this out instead: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Which would actually end up being 51/20 after the MS change.

Well, its not just flurry. A big question is whether we will naturally hit/expertise cap with standard gear, or if we will have options to load more crit/AP on in lieu of those stats. If we can do the later, then fury can net you 2% more hit and 2% off dodge. There is also death wish to factor in. Granted, you're right that wrecking crew probably outweighs flurry, but I'm not convinced blade storm is superior to death wish, at all. In fact, if I were to do your build, I would probably do 50/21.

That blade storm might have gotten you 6 whirl winds, but you lose at best 1 white hit, 1 slam, 1 MS (Well delay.). Granted you can use it twice for every death wish, but when you subtract the slam/White loss and a portion of MS loss from it, 6 whirl winds doesn't sound as appealing as DW execute spam sub 20.

Edit: Didn't catch your edit.

• Morsexy · 09/19/08, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

This is not working. Warrior penalties have to go. Berserker Stance is outdated. Death Wish damage penalty is outdated and absolutely silly now that the fear immunity part is gone. Ditto for Recklessness.

Have you ever done Felmyst as a Warrior? It gets really really ugly during a gas nova when you pop Recklessness and Death Wish while you sit in Berserker stance (not that we have a choice). You are taking 40% more damage there than a Rogue and the best thing is, at any point they could CloS to get out of encapsulate or to stop incoming damage on top of their DPS.

There is just too much raid wide AoE going to keep penalties in game as is. It's silly and detrimental for balancing all DPS classes to be equal.

Just quoting a post of mine from the future of a DPS warrior thread.

Originally Posted by Morsexy

The point is muru, kalecgos, twins sometimes, felmyst all pulse damage every 5-10 seconds and its not avoidable.

I find this whole "oh well its more dangerous" or "thats what its supposed to BE man" or some argument like that very out dated. Every single mage in the raid has iceblock now, warlocks can shatter, there have been tons of little changes that balance the game around either A. Fixing imbalance like Invis+Fd + nothing for locks or B. solving complicated issues that are detrimental to everyone of a certain type, healer, dps, or melee. The cleave change was for the better I think we would all agree, and right now, on M'uru, doing what I have to do to make myself viable, on Entropius I take average hits of 2500 damage, vs 2050 or so damage for the rest of the raid. Granted this is with deathwish, recklessness and obviously berserker stance up, but nothing changes the fact that if the raid is taking 2050 damage pulses, I should be taking 2800 pulses, which seems insane.

With just berserker stance Id be taking 205 more damage.

The real question is, why doesn't an ability like "The Beast Within" confer the same extra damage taking as deathwish, or recklessness? The long and short is this was an ability designed with splash damage encounters in mind, or perhaps PVP, and so that side of it was removed or not even seriously considered, and under the logic currently in place for warriors, it absolutely should be.

The long and short is this needs to be evaluated. On M'uru I took a pulse for 2747. The next highest is 2304 ( warrior ) and then a smattering of people around 2070-2111 ( warlock ).

I know I personally wish that all of this "more damage inc lawl" crap was plain gone from the game, but I would settle just for a balance in PvE. I can handle that recklessness is THAT insane of an ability, and thus deserves the 20% more damage. What I can't handle is 10% more damage to be in the correct and only damage dealing stance.

Obviously with recklessness being changed, that side of the argument can be changed to getting rid of all the stupid damage penalties. I have data like this for every Sunwell boss, and used M'uru since that was the cutting edge mob at the time.

acx · 09/19/08, 4:28 PM

The last time I test Bladestorm, it gave 7 whirlwind procs. One initially as soon as you used the ability and 1 per second for 6 seconds. White hits still landed during Bladestorm although you are locked out of using other abilities while Bladestorm was still going on. But you could spam mortal strike and have it go off the instant the last whirlwind proc from Bladestorm hits.

Shha · 09/19/08, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by mistersix

I found this post regarding TG from ghostcrawler interesting:

"If your dps is 15% lower than a rogue, we're not going to make up for that difference by buffing a single talent to account for such a big proportion of your dps. More than likely we would handle this through adjusting the damage on higher ranks of abilities, improving base stats or stat conversions, or possibly even changing stance or rage mechanics. We could also lower the rogue dps through similar adjustments. It's not always easy to determine whether class A needs to be buffed to catch class B, or if class B needs to be nerfed."

source

I find it hopeful that they are willing to consider a number of solutions even at this late stage in the process. Any of the options could be nice. Some even potentially applicable to other problems in other trees like the stats, stat conversion, stance or rage tweaks.

This post touches 2 important topics.

a) "Single Talent" argument. Thats simply not true. Not now, not in future. There are certain talents that I would say are "pivotal" to specs, and provide such dps increase. Right now if you play as slam spec, improved slam provides more dps increase then TG would. (talking about 2.x live in this section). Hell Mortal Strike or BT contribute easily to 15-25% of our damage - should they be nerfed as well? Its one point afterall. In my opinion MS or BT are such "spec defining abilities" right now, and as such they do provide a huge dps increase. Imp Slam is one. Flurry gives a fury warrior 15-20% damage increase counting extra rage gain - yes its 5 points, but 5 points lower in tree. Deathwish provides easily 5% damage increase, so does Rampage. I have no problem with our end-tree skill providing 15% increase in dps. Especially that taking TG basically pigeonhole you into one playstyle - so it makes it easy to balance as well.

b) "changing stance or rage" mechanic. By changing Rage mechanic I understand they could buff rage generation? Some drastic change that late into beta wont probably happen. Well everyone knows Fury right now has too much rage, and no good skills to spend it (New TG penalty gutted Heroic Strike into oblivion). Stance mechanic change sure, would be nice , but it doesnt feel like it can drastically change fury output.

After some thinking , I think I have an idea though that could "fix" the 2 big grudges with fury - the subpar dps, horrible endtree talent of Unending Fury,and lack of interesting rage dump.

UF could add 20/40/60/80/100% chance for talent points of doing an "offhand Slam" while using Slam. Results would be:

Small boost to dps via Bloodsurge procs. Counting average 15 seconds per BS proc, that would add 62.5%*(weapon damage +250)*(100-Miss Chance)%*1/15 dps. Counting 200 dps 2h weapon 90% hit with yellow attacks and 6k ap thats a straight 80 dps for endtree talents. Decent.

More importantly it would add a viable rage dump in form of slam. Slam still wouldnt be "amazing" - with a 2.0 speed weapon (typical I think with 3.5 speed +WF+Flurry+some haste) - it would "cost" 0.75% of white swings to cast it, and it would give in realm of 1.25 (number pulled out of my other posts about heroic strike effect on damage) of white swings back. 10 rage, more then gcd lost and you get around half the damage of white MH+OH.

If that proves too powerful (and I admit it might - simple math shows that you have around 10 free gcd per 31 sec cycle, which also adds to around 15 swings from our calculation - so it would give a boost equal to around 33% of current white damage), it wouldn't be hard to actually tweak the numbers there - make it so its a chance to swing with OH during slam or something like that. The general idea would be though to boost Fury dps by giving us another viable rage dump.

Emeraude · 09/19/08, 5:25 PM

We just restarted the servers to fix an issue with the diminishing returns formula we added for Dodge, Parry, and the enemy's chance to miss you. The issue fixed was that the formula now works! This will have a definite effect on all tanks ability to mitigate damage due to effectively lowered amounts of those avoidance values.

We'd love to see combat logs from our more melee intensive raid fights after this change.

ImageShack - Hosting :: avoidancechangezd9.jpg

Pretty huge nerf, I don't see how this does anything but promote stamina stacking. =/