Dots

If this is actually working as intended, any kind of stacking +dodge/+parry or click effects using those ratings are really bad now. To quote Enk from the EU beta boards: '84 dodge rating gives me .01 avoidance at 410, and .6 at 0.'

 

Gruntle

I don't know if you saw it Shha, but I posted some Slam vs HS calculations in the previous page. Slam is already in the current version of the fury tree viable as a rage dump for TG builds, but only if you can spare the gcd (this does of course depend on the speed of your weapon though, at 2 sec swing speed it seems likely that HS will win out). Having Slam hit with both hands sounds like a nice idea for an alternative to UF, and has nice synergy with Bloodsurge.

 

dalavita

Just something I noticed in the picture. You lost 2 expertise...

The human racials (at least the sword ones) give 3 expertise now, this surprised me during PTR testing.

According to some guy in the wow-europe forums dwarves still get 5 expertise.

Anyone know what this is about, it's hopefully a bug considering the mace racial.

Edit: Found this...

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [Feedback] Human Expertise Racial

 

Chirality

If they did the DR on Parry/Dodge/etc ratings correctly, the stats would work like armor: e.g., adding 1000 extra armor always makes you live x% longer. Armor is the poster child right now for a stat that, which technically having 'diminishing returns' on your 'damage reduction' stat, is actually well-balanced.

As we all know from BT/SWP tanking gear, dodge/parry/etc give *increasing* returns. That is to say, 1% more dodge when you have 50% dodge+parry+miss is much more (relative) avoidance than 1% dodge when you have 25% dodge+parry+miss. You get hit 2% less in the first case, 1.3% less in the second. 1% dodge is 50% better when you have good gear than it is when you have bad gear.

I'm willing to be charitable and claim that the intent is to not to 'diminish' dodge/parry/etc ratings, but rather to make them as equally valuable as armor--no matter what your stats are at the moment. Whether their formula achieves that or not is a different question.

 

Agrimat

Please don't panic about diminishing returns on avoidance stats. As we all know, armor has always had diminishing returns on damage reduction but not on survivability. We are probably looking at the same situation here.

The old system led to Sunwell Radiance. This is an improvement that will keep gear upgrades valuable in high end instances. And it will be tuned around.

 

• Bluefish

I know it's about two pages late, but I made a DPS Warrior Survivability Concerns thread on the beta forums here. I don't raid on my Warrior, so I kept my portion to what I know from Heroics. If someone more knowledgeable/experienced could add a post about raid survivability, that would be great.

 

groktar

I am curious to know whether they're planning on having separate diminishing returns on dodge, parry, and miss, or whether it's based on all three combined. If it's the former, it would be very interesting for druids, who don't get any use out of parry.

 

Danin

You mean parry.

 

Promethius

On the topic of devastate, is the issue that warriors in prot gear with shield are above what they should be or is it the flurry/devastate and 2/5 flurry, 3/3 sword and board dw devastate in dps gear warriors that are too high on DPS?

If the former is tuned appropriately and it's the dual wield devastate that's making arms and fury sad in the pants, wouldn't it make more sense to just have devastate do what it does live, 50% weapon dmg + bonus dmg for sunders, and fix sword and board to make devastate do 20% more dmg and get 5% more crit per talent point, but only if a shield is equipped (would seem pretty appropriate given the talent name)? So 3/3 sword and board would make your devastates do 50%*1.6 = 80% weapon dmg and still give you 15% crit on devs and whatever % for free refreshed shield slams, but now a dual wielder can't abuse devastate for DPS as easily.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Build 8962:

Arms

* Rend base damage has been increased by 50%. (300 to 450 dmg for Rank 10, 255 to 375 for Rank 9, etc ...)

Fury

* Battle Shout now increases both melee and ranged attack power of the raid.

Protection
Devastate now causes 50% of weapon damage (down from 80%)

Talents
Arms

* Bladestorm now only prevents you from performing other abilities
* Blood Frenzy now also increases your attack speed by 3/6% in addition to the Rend and Deep Wounds damage increase.
* Improved Mortal Strike has been reduced to 3 points and now reduces the cooldown of Mortal Strike as well. Increases the damage caused by your Mortal Strike ability by 3/6/10% (Old - 2/4/6/8/10%) and reduces the cooldown by 0.33/0.67/1 sec.
* Taste for Blood now have 1 charge

 

Shha

Well looking at your Slam calculations now I see some strange errors , or maybe I'm the one misinformed. For example you used flurried weapon speed when calculating white swing damage - thus the insane difference you got between slam damage and white MH damage.

My calculations.

Assumptions : I took a bit better values and a bit faster weapon. Faster weapons obviously arent as good for slam, but I feel 3.5 might be more common looking at our current raiding gear. I assumed also 6k AP, which isnt too hard to get with AttT. I think your crit rate can be low, with lotp global, and agi totems i think 40% isnt hard to reach at all. I also assumed full raid buffs, and 10% haste (again I think 0% haste assumption is unrealistic).


Weapon = 210dps 3.5speed 2h + 6k ap

Weapon speed = 3.5/(1.25*1.2(WF)*1.03(Ret/Oomkin)*1.1(haste)=2.06
Weapon base swing damage= (210+6000/14)*3.5=2235
Weapon end swing damage = 2235*(0.25*0.76+0.4*2.06+(1-0.25-0.4-0.08))=2870
Weapon damage MH+OH=4305

White damage lost due to slamming = 4305*(1.5/2.06)=3135


Slam damage
2235+250=2585
Slam end swing damage = 2585*(0.4*2.27+0.52) = 3691

Net damage gain = 3691-3135=556.

Rage cost is HIGHER then Heroic strike (almost 0.75 of white swing lost on BOTH weapons, vs 1 MH swing lost nd about same skill use).

Aka Slam is not viable.

Granted for soloing , without WF and raid buffs, the calculations are better for slam (although you still calculated white swings at 2.88 for ap coefficient and not 3.6) but still its there.

Since both Slam and White swings seem to not be normalized, its pretty easy to compare the damage while not hasted/using 3.6 weapon (still calculating raid buffs).

new weapon speed = 3.6/(1.25*1.2*1.03) = 2.33
White damage loss to slamming = 4305*(1.5/2.33)=2771

Slam damage gain = 919.

Now thats somewhat more interesting.
Lets see the data for heroic strike:

HS damage
2235+495=2730
Heroic Strike end swing damage = 2730*(0.4*2.27+0.52) = 3898
Heroic Strike end bonus = 3898-2870=1028.

Approximating the rage gained from offhand to 1.625 of MH (which is a pretty good approximation - although not perfect, since the constant for OH doesnt get affected by DW spec), and counting MH swing to generate "Rage" amount of rage per swing (exact value is hardly needed for this type of math)

Slam rage loss = 1.5/2.33*1.625*Rage= 1.05* Rage
Heroic Strike rage loss = Rage.

the 0.05 of Rage is around 2 Rage in fact. Like I said my last part is full of approximation, if someone wishes, you can run full rage calculation - I think its not necessary here), which compensates for 2 rage higher cost of heroic strike.

For same rage Heroic STILL provides more damage then Slam.



Conclusion - Slam is useful assuming following :

Final weapon speed is slower then 4305/(2771-1028+919)*1.5=2.42.

That means :

a) 10% Haste+ Raid buffs forces you to use weapon slower then 4.15 base swing time for slam to be useful - not happening.
b) Raid buffs alone force you to use weapon slower then 3.75 (so basically only with 3.8 speed. Only other "combo" might be 3.8 speed MH and 3.7 speed OH - nothing else will work).
c) Soloing with 10% haste forces you to use 3.4 or faster weapon - So slam is useful there basically
d) Soloing without haste forces you to use 3.0 or faster weapon - again Slam is a fine dump.

e) Weapon speed faster then 1.75 (possible during Heroism just without too much trouble), makes Slam REDUCE your dps compared to not using anything (not even heroic).

f) Heroism in any configuration makes Slam not useful.

 

Ziggurat

New build:

Devastate nerfed back down to 50% from 80%
Blood Frenzy upped to 3%/6% from 1%/2%
Battleshout now also gives ranged ap
Rend damage increased (+50% on max rank)
Titan's grip hit penalty now says "1 to 0%" instead of "15%". Probably parsing error.
Imp MS decreased to 3 ranks from 5. Reduces cooldown by 0.33/0.66/1 sec and +3/6/10% damage
Taste for Blood now has "1 charge"

 

Graul

I totally called this one. Except I was actually being optimistic and said they would nerf it down to 60%. I guess Skarg doing 3k on Patchwerk as 0/30/41 was too much. Hopefully the Titan's Grip change is actually useful this time around.

 

Bronwyn

Or it points to 10% ... this might actually be good.

 

Shha

10% would feel acceptable to me if they buffed rampage to give similiar "self buff" as blood frenzy now gives. Doesnt have to be the haste - just a general dps buff about equal in strength.

 

Bronwyn

I'm rather sure that they will buff the fury tree in several places. Unending fury won't stay that way, for example. Titan's Grip with a 10% hit debuff would definitely be a step in the right direction. Right now with my SWP/BT mix I'm sitting at 12.6% hit, not an awfully long way to 19% really.

 

Mode

Not quite. Blood Frenzy now gives the warrior +6% attack speed, but it's still only +2% physical damage for the raid.

 

mistersix

I think that's a fabulous idea. If you're in beta you should post that on the forums. If not, I could do it for you.

 

Graul

Are you guys forgetting that part of the "DPS" parity for Protection is NOT just for tanking? And you won't be doing DPS in DPS gear with a Shield on. Not just because of rage issues, but because of the innate threat.

 

mistersix

I think you're forgetting the part where they do want to make dpsing with a shield on viable. The innate threat doesn't stop people from going to zerk stance and dw deva spamming today. There's nothing about what Promethius suggested that would change that.

 

Graul

Where did they ever state this? Soloing is not the same thing as trying to DPS on a raid as Protection. They also would not have changed Devastate (if this is actually implemented) to work with a 2h weapon.

Just to clarify, I was not referring to adding whatever DPS you can while in tanking gear as an off tank when you're not actually tanking the boss. I am talking about being in the raid, on a fight where you are not needed to tank at all.

 

Shha

They definitely tampered with hit. Im not sure yet what, but it seems completely awful now - its more like they added TG penalty to ALL 2h attack - I had 9% miss at lvl 70 on blasted lands mobs as 2h ARMS (1x2h to make it really clear), having 146 hit - vs a mob 15 levels below me. Yellow and white attacks alike.

Edit - nevermind above - got a yellow miss using 1x1h as well.

 

Darian_TruBlade

TG is completely broken on the PTR. If you spec into it you can't dual wield 2H weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if this is related to Shha's problem.

 

Vaeys

It's happening to rogues and enhancement shaman as well.

 

Shha

There is also a bug where sharpening stones do not work (but weightstones do) - there is something wrong with *sharp* weapons in general - can you check if you can use 2h maces with TG? Cant really log on beta right now.