PSGarak

They do account for Trauma, and those buffs don't stack.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Tankietka

More results from sim.

With windfury totem (20% haste) & Shaa's stats. MS/WW/Slams looks obviously better now, but still does not beat OP/Rend based rotations.

MS/OP/Rend/Slams (MS as priority, then OP and Slam spam)
DPS: 2149.37

Rend tick 4.5% of damage
Deep Wounds tick 6.48% of damage
Slam 31.14% of damage
Mortal Strike 17.31% of damage
Overpower 15.75% of damage
Swing 24.82% of damage
---
Wrecking Crew: 99.99%
Deep Wounds: 99.4%
Trauma: 100.0%
Blood Frenzy: 99.97%
Rend: 90.39%
----------------------------------

OP/Rend/Slams
DPS: 2107.0

Overpower 16.76% of damage
Rend tick 4.83% of damage
Deep Wounds tick 6.71% of damage
Slam 48.88% of damage
Swing 22.82% of damage
---
Wrecking Crew: 100.0%
Deep Wounds: 99.39%
Trauma: 100.0%
Blood Frenzy: 100.0%
Rend: 95.14%
----------------------------------

MS/WW/Slams
DPS: 2005.67

Whirlwind 7.75% of damage
Deep Wounds tick 6.81% of damage
Mortal Strike 17.78% of damage
Slam 41.58% of damage
Swing 26.07% of damage
---
Trauma: 99.98%
Wrecking Crew: 99.91%
Blood Frenzy: 97.85%
Deep Wounds: 97.85%



Artificial situation with each swing giving 100 rage:

MS/OP/Rend/Slams DPS: 2165.44
OP/Rend/Slams DPS: 2108.09
MS/WW/Slams DPS: 2139.02

Seems like OP/Rend/Slams reached sweet spot much earlier than other cycles, especially MS/WW one.
In this situation adding Sudden Death execute from time to time would probably give DPS increase.

Last results from 'unlimited rage' scenario seems to support this. MS/WW scales better with gear than OP/Rend.

 

cpkfolief

You seem to have done some excellent number-crunching on the rotations. It appears even at a higher gear level there is a small chance for Blood Frenzy to fall off in the MS/WW rotation, which means it's probably going to fall off noticeably more at lower crit levels.

The next step would be to find the MS/WW vs OP/Rend point of inception. From the DPS numbers output by your sim it looks like that point is near current end-game stats and ideal raid groups.

 

Shha

Ok let me add some things from "real testing". I used blasted lands mobs as example, with someone else tanking. This obviously has a downside of not being real boss stats. However lets compare the stats:

Dodge/Miss = 0% in both cases

Crit = 18 level of mob difference gives 3.6% more crit - less effect then rampage/lotp alone have in raids - so my crit was still lower

Armor - testing showed they are almost exactly at 20% damage reduction with my stats. This corresponds with 2693 armor. 6200 boss has ~3000 armor before armor reduction (15% in my case) so 2550. Again the corelation is close enough.

2500 ap instead of 3500.

Indeed i dont get glancings - which are actually around 6% damage reduction on white swings only. With raid AP my glancings hit harder, then hits on blasted lands mobs.

In general my dps is lower there then in raids. I lack ~7% crit, 1000 ap, 23% haste, consumables like haste pots etc. So the dps should be lower.

My tests show me getting to 2100 dps without much effort. So somewhere in your sim you seriously underestimate something. Btw its a big upgrade over live, where i can get maybe 1600, maybe 1700 at best.


Deep wounds problem:
Thats not entirely correct equation.

a) Deep Wounds always used double values for procs like blood frenzy/wrecking crew/2h spec. It increases the initial damage (thus ticks), then increases the value of ticks again. Again with my testing my swing damage was 1180 (due to lower ap)

The correct equation is : 1180*0.08(just counting 1 tick)*1.02*1.02 (BF)*1.06*1.06*2h spec*1.3*(Trauma)*1.1*1.1(WC)= 173 tick. That somewhat corresponds to what i observed. 1st deep wound tick was usually 154 - which somewhat adds up - There would be only 1 count of BF and WC - since its 1st hit and they arent up when you strike. Later ticks seemed to follow it.

b) Deep Wounds "roll". Now Im not sure how it works. It doesnt seem to completely follow the whole scheme like mages had. Im trying to figure out some sensible numbers but here is what i found so far:

* 173 tick from equation above, translates to 280 average with my crit.
* the absolute highest i ever reached with recklessness/haste pot, and using skills to get most crits was 308 - So it seems it "caps somewhats. It was over 7 crits over deep wound (6 sec) duration, so using even rough assumption the damage would spread evenly - 12 sec of deep wounds to cover 7 times the damage - the ticks should be well over 500. In fact they would peak at some point with almost 800 damage, so the "rolling" isnt as simple as mage one. Still its a fact - consecutive crits increase the deep wound ticks , although at unknown rate atm.

 

cpkfolief

I hate to be negative but you can't draw any real conclusions on DPS-related issues testing on BL mobs. Your rage generation is completely different than what it would be on boss fights due to crits, lack of avoidance on the mob, etc.'

Also I'd love to know how you come up with 0% dodge for a boss fight because I can't figure it out. You're not going to get that without Weapon Mastery, and I don't see Weapon Mastery as being a DPS bonus for a deep Arms build.

 

norvax

What about imp. Rend for Prot ? has anyone counted it already?

 

Shha

Actually thats true about weapon mastery - I guess im just too used to having it. Still regardless, 2% dodge isnt that important.

2% avoidance reduces the rage, but rest of the argument is completely wrong. I hit HARDER on bosses then blasted lands mobs (assuming I dont sunder them). The armor of debuffed raid boss and undebuffed blasted lands mobs is about same - In fact blasted lands mobs have more - i specifically explained it in my post. I have less crit rate there, and less attack power.

On live my dps on blasted lands mobs is approximately 66% of 7700 bosses dps, and 60% of 6200 bosses dps. On beta I dont think the difference is quiet that much - the "raid buffs" are considerably weaker come 3.0. But still its pretty easy to see that in raids you will do MORE , rather then less damage.

 

Uglesh

I COMPLETELY disagree... it is this "re-running" of old content that keeps players playing the game. If you only ever had to clear Kara once to get a full compliment of goodies do you think we would still have even half the current player base?? I agree that they need to expand their loot pools and provide more variety for each slot so you don't wind up farming Gruul for 4 months despite being in T6 content.

What slows guild progression and seeing content isn't gear.... not even close. Months agao people were doing T5 content in a blend of Kara gear and some blues and yet they were sucessful when current guilds in Full Epics/Badge gear can't kill anything past Lurker and VR. The fact is, you can't create fights that cater to everyone... if there is a way to cheese a fight, EVERYONE will do it (see VR and Anetheron when bugged). Sadly this notion that "everyone should see the content" is a horrible step in turning this into a soccer-mom calibre game. Some people are just better at things, and we shouldn't have to pander to the lowest common demoninator. As long as there are things for people to do, no one cares if they don't see the top 5% of content (except the Dev's apparently).


On the topic of avoidance/mitigation. I'm very disappointed to see that we'll be back to stacking STAM STAM STAM. With mana being more limited, I'm sure healers will prefer tanks with HUGE health pools so they can wait to cast their biggest/most efficient heal without worrying about crazy overhealing. While I was never happy having 4-5 sets of gear, I'm more saddened by the prospect of just keeping one.

 

Obould

Full T6, with several SWP tank items => lev 80 @ 480-490 Defense Skill, this means i am missing 60 Defense Skill (~300 Defense Rating) to become crit immune. Every tank at the start will regem every single 15stam one into at least the 12def one.

Even in full 10man Naxx gear you cant allow to gem stamina!!

 

Liar

Not every tank: Druids can go stack Stamina off the bat and get some advantage on the plate tanks.

I chuckled when I read GC's reasoning about the lack of Defense on tanking gear: It was supposed to be a challenge for us tanks to gather enough Defense to tank instances and raids and they deemed it "too easy" to cap Defense in TBC. I really have no idea where the difficulty lies in choosing a Defense gem over a Stamina gem but, hey, maybe that's just me...

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Skytor

This is just crazy ... it seems that one of the really "un-fun" things they were trying to fix was the lack of tanks for random 5-man content (via - easier threat, easier AoE threat, ability to tank in off-spec etc.)

Then as a counterpoint to that they make it hard to cross the threshold from non-functional to functional tank (crit immunity). If you make it a real effort to collect the gear what is the chance of "warrior - dps only" ever giving tanking a shot?

It would make far more sense for it to be very hard for a questing warrior/DK/paladin to avoid ending up with a tank suit functional for 5-man content ... not optimal or great, but at least enough to encourage some people to throw it on and have a go.

When you have 3 basic roles required to make group content function, why set the entry level for one role arbitrarily high? Its only going to cause frustration for everyone, gear checks belong in raiding - not at the first threshold of group PvE content.

 

Darkrenown

I liked how they removed crushing blows, "because it isn't fun to be randomly gibbed" and then made (non-druid)raid tanks critable again.

 

nakoda

I agree with this. Except when it took 27 Chromaggus kills to watch the first Scarab go to a dps warrior with 'more dkp' who 'wanted to start a 'tank set'. Yeah, guild management sucks sometimes. Never did get a Scarab. ^.^

What I think the poster you quoted was referring to wasn't the challenge and fun of running an instance to 'get that one last piece' but having to re-run instances to 'get that 5th piece for my 4th set for situation XYz^3'. Gear homogenization will, at the very least, mean that our tank set is a tank set. Not a block set or a stam set or a rage set, or whatever. You have a 'tank' set, and a 'dps' set, and it will still be as fun to rerun instances to complete those sets as it is now to complete your current sets.

Less micromanagement can a good thing, once in awhile.

 

Liar

I fail to see the good point about only having one tanking set, regardless of boss or environment. What's so fun about Blizzard telling you to wear The One Set for everything? What happened to strategic gearing for bosses (*no* DPS gear for added threat in threat sets - fuck that)?

Stamina sets, Avoidance sets, BV sets and to a lesser extent Threat sets all had their purpose.
They are taking away our Threat set by ramping up our threat globally - which is great (unless they overdo it and tanking is not one bit challenging anymore). We get to wear a tanking set without having to downgrade to produce threat, I like that.
They are removing the choice to stack BV apart from trinkets I think, so our BV set goes out the dodo as well. No more BV on RoS P1 for your OT I guess, even though I really liked the choice of going with either one Warrior/Paladin in BV gear to make things slightly less chaotic compared to the with the "everyone-get-in" method. It's not game breaking, but it's fun.
They are removing the choice to stack Avoidance by nerfing it hard. One less tactical decision taken from us.
They are making us wear the Stamina set because Stamina doesn't have diminishing returns.

Guys, we aren't talking resists sets here which you NEED to wear on resist fights. We are talking about Stamina, Avoidance and BV gear which you CAN wear on fights where it gives you the slight edge. How can people not see the problem of super homogenization?

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

• Morsexy

I'm nitpicking but wasn't it ebonroc\flamegor? I think that was most of the issue, they had game changing trinkets dropping on bosses other than Chromaggus or Nef.


Homogenization is a scary prospect because it seems to me that through min\maxing there will still be a clear best MT and now they will have more of an advantage through whatever reasons they are deemed thus.

I know I personally thought that having multiple sets was the dumbest thing ever, I can't tell you how many times a tank I knew would be in his "ROFL THREAT HOOO" set and get ass raped by a hard hitting mob. However obviously even I had a few piece sub in strategy for something like ZA bear runs, or the like.

I mentioned it a few posts back, I have no idea how they would balance the game with 4 tanks using such disperate tanking methods, and I don't see why they can't just design encounters around sets of tanks. Either its opitmal for a war\druid to tank, and secondary pal\dk, and then vice versa.

 

moxy

Gear homogenization should theoretically mean more choice, not less. Instead of a raid tier dropping one pally tanking piece and one warrior tanking piece for slot A, it will drop 2 generic tanking pieces, with varying stat distributions.

A little less specialization of gear to situation for the prot warrior will be welcome. I don't think anyone liked the fact that our most sought after avoidance upgrades could only be realistically donned 10% of the time, and my impression is this is what blizzard is trying to tweak. There will still be customization for situations and Outfitter will still be our most useful mod, but it will hopefully require fewer than 10 sets for a single run.

 

Buka

I fall to see how the gear homogenization could be a problem. Did you know many rogues/mages/hunters/locks/spriests etc, which have 2+ sets of gear now (except resist sets and "illidan/twins" gimmic tank sets)? Why only we should take basically ALL available gear from BT/MH/Sunwell for our little fun "strategic" meta-game "Find the best setup for boss X"? (not to mention it could be the problem for dkp-based guilds, who charge their tanks for every item).

And, honestly, all this "strategic decisions" and fancy math you make offline (not in game and not in raids) -- in spreadsheets or just with pen and paper in your hands. In game you, most probably, just makes sets in your Wardrobe, Closet Gnome, etc for «boss X» or «situation Y» and that’s all.

So, i guess, people reaction on gear homogenization solely depends from guild management and their position in the guild. If you "MT with first hand on all", or officer with loot priority, or even guild master, you, basically, don’t care, because you have literary infinitive pool of items. But if you take OT position, or you are just regular member in the guild with hard dkp system, you will be more than happy with situation, where 4566575 sets gone away.

 

mistersix

Course not. But what's ideal for blizzard's bottom line isn't always ideal for player's enjoyment. In this model people end up playing more for loot than for fun. And it's the running of the same content ad nauseum that makes the game feel like work for people.

...and the majority of the player base.

I suspect we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of those points. Sorta kinda off-topic for this thread anyway, right?

 

Uglesh

Its an issue because they aren't going the route of "here's a dozen slightly different choices... pick which you like best" but instead are going the route of HERE IS YOUR GEAR. By trying to appease everyone you almost always please no one. When Boss A drops "plate gloves of the whatever" and tanks don't like because there isn't enough tanking stats, yet DPS warriors don't want cuz there is "leather/mail gloves of the whatever" that are itemized better, your pally is holy spec'd and using cloth because it too is itemized better... this will be the issue.
Not only will it create these situations, but it really begs the question of why bother having gear drop?? Why not just give your armor a rating and after a boss dies the raid leader can assign who's armor "dings" to the next teir?? I've never liked one size fits all solutions... to me it begs of laziness or developers just giving up.

 

Airwave2k2

Hi everyone.. i have made a comparision between Axe and Mace Speec for Pve an Pvp

RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

Even on normal Raidboss with 7700 Armor Mace just gets in the Zone of same Damage a AxeSpeec will make.

MFG da AIr

 

• Morsexy

On a side note, I'd really like them to rework our stances at this point.

The Deathknight "Stances" are so superior to ours it is pretty ridiculous when you compare them.

Just the fact that Battle stance does nothing for us is enough to merit an examination. I can only pray we finally get rid of the stupid % modifier for more damage taken.

 

levk

Can you burn heroic fury if intercept is off cooldown as is? I'm trying to incorporate it into a macro.

 

mistersix

Based on the changes they've already made to existing gear because of this gear reset we're actually seeing the former (more choices) and not the latter (only one piece). Take a look at Bloodboil's adjusted loot tables for example. New girdle of stability, new girdle of mighty resolve. Both have similar sta, str, and block values. One has dodge, one has block rating. If you're a plate-wearing tank you can be relatively happy with either and more importantly not have to wait for one of them to drop and be damned by the rng.

 

Nezralix

It is a little concerning that they seem to be approaching the Death Knight with the idea of rectifying all of the various issues in other tanking classes (i.e. a consistent, energy-like resource system, no blocking mechanics headaches, decent utility, meaningful stances, a reasonable stat scaling scheme, consistent melee and spell integration, reasonable similarity between tanking and DPS specs) without really going back and thoroughly addressing the ways some of these issues affect existing classes. In general, given how much the Death Knight represents the "modern" viewpoint towards tanking, it seems like it'll be good to be a DK in this expansion.

 

nakoda

yeah, shoulda been more clear. I was clarifying the message of that posters quote, which I thought wasnt communicated well. I was just summarizing, not objectifying. devil's advocate and all.

personally, I enjoy being able to adjust stats incrementally based on the encounter because it is more dynamic and challenging. I used the Chromaggus example to argue the point that the original quote was referencing, as I saw it anyways. (And yes, styleens dropped from flamegor not chromaggus. its been awhile, my appologies!)