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Old 09/23/08, 12:58 PM   #2351
Frederic
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Burning Legion
Originally Posted by Buka View Post
Devs want dps-warriors use 2-handers (1 or 2 - arms or fury), they clearly stated so multiple times. So, i gues, DW 1Her builds will not have any use in xpack's end-game raiding.
Problem is: Titan's Grip builds are exceedingly terrible right now, which is why people are questioning it's viability.

Anyways, just throwing something out there in relationship to TG's hit penalty and the relative suckiness of Fury on the PTR: what if precision was changed to +9% normal attack hit and the TG penalty was reduced to -10% special hit? A 19% / 19% miss rating for white / yellow would make gear decisions a little more clear-cut and would be a fair bit less onerous. Of course, if that's too low to be considered balanced it would be fairly easy to raise the numbers, but I guess what I'm getting at is why not make the yellow cap and white coincide in the interest of keeping scaling consistent? Am I missing something here?

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Old 09/23/08, 1:35 PM   #2352
Buka
DJ Aduch
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Разувий (EU)
Originally Posted by Frederic View Post
Problem is: Titan's Grip builds are exceedingly terrible right now, which is why people are questioning it's viability.
Key words here: "right now". Beta is not over yet, nor did they make "final pass" on the dps specs. No one said: "hey, warriors, we finished work on your Fury tree!". So, i guess, it's a bit early questioning TGs viability.

Originally Posted by Frederic View Post
Anyways, just throwing something out there in relationship to TG's hit penalty and the relative suckiness of Fury on the PTR: what if precision was changed to +9% normal attack hit and the TG penalty was reduced to -10% special hit? A 19% / 19% miss rating for white / yellow would make gear decisions a little more clear-cut and would be a fair bit less onerous. Of course, if that's too low to be considered balanced it would be fairly easy to raise the numbers, but I guess what I'm getting at is why not make the yellow cap and white coincide in the interest of keeping scaling consistent? Am I missing something here?
Yeah, you are -- endless QQ's on rogues forums . The +9% to hit for 3-point talent would be OP. And, i guess, +9% to hit to white attacks would fully cover any loss of TG's 10% hit penalty on yellow attacks in dps wise (so, why we need this penalty again?). Not to mention a lot better rage generation.

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Old 09/23/08, 1:40 PM   #2353
Vulmio
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Sargeras (EU)
Originally Posted by Buka View Post
Devs want dps-warriors use 2-handers (1 or 2 - arms or fury), they clearly stated so multiple times. So, i gues, DW 1Her builds will not have any use in xpack's end-game raiding.
I'm pretty sure they did but now they seem to contradict themselves (I'll edit with the quote when the forum will be available). Basically Ghostcrawler says the fury tree should work fine dual wielding 1 handed weapons and TG shouldn't be mandatory (but maybe she means this for low level players but really would this really matter ?).

Edit : here is the link : WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> I know it's not your favorite topic, GC...

And the quote : Ghostcrawler (answering to someone who said : "The Fury tree is no longer competitive using 1h weapons. The entire tree builds up to Titan's Grip, which now requires an unrealistc amount of hit to cap specials.") : "The first part is the problem that actually needs fixing. Fury is designed as a dual-wield tree. It should work fine without Titan's Grip. If your damage is too low across the board, we're not going to address that by giving you an insane ability that boosts your dps by a huge amount at the very bottom of the tree."

Last edited by Vulmio : 09/23/08 at 1:50 PM.

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Old 09/23/08, 1:44 PM   #2354
Statix
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Liar View Post
Yes, but back then noone knew how much DPS to expect from a Warrior compared to other DPS classes. This time it's simple: If you do not do the same DPS as everyone else, something has to change. We can moan about homogenization all we want, but that's the advantage: We know what they want. Warrior will be able to tank everything or do the same DPS as other classes.
I'm cool with leveling the dps field, but where's our threat dump? I get real tired of not being able to dps while the tanks generate a bigger lead.

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Old 09/23/08, 1:54 PM   #2355
nakoda
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Statix View Post
I'm cool with leveling the dps field, but where's our threat dump? I get real tired of not being able to dps while the tanks generate a bigger lead.
Vigilance?

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Old 09/23/08, 2:08 PM   #2356
Brgid
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Feathermoon
Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade View Post
What devs want and what is are not necessarily the same thing, particularly during beta.

That said there are problems with the spec in question. Before we can even consider the effect of losing TG we have to consider the different DW 1H specs against each other. The difference between this build and Incite boils down to a Weapon Spec + 5 points of Arms Talents versus Imp Bloodrage, Imp Berserker Rage and Incite.

HS only needs to account for ~35% of your DPS in order for Incite to be approximately equal to a Weapon Spec. Throw on top of that the better rage generation tools and it should be pretty clear why Incite builds are the favored 1H builds for LK.
Hm, hadn't even considered an Incite build (is there discussion of it earlier in this thread, or can anyone link to one)... although a 25/46 build does grab Imp Berserker Rage if not Imp Bloodrage?

At the moment my warrior is not even 70 yet (levelling her with the plan of being a new main in LK) and I find HS is approximately 5-10% of my damage, if that - but I presume that changes significantly with level cap and gearing out :-)

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Old 09/23/08, 3:35 PM   #2357
Mercy XXVI
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Warrior
 
Hyjal
I don't understand why the idea to give us more hit from talents keeps getting tossed around. If they give TG a 15% hit penalty, and then they have to throw in another talent to offset said penalty, then the talent design fails. The only explanation for that would be "Well, we wanted to make you invest a lot into Fury to be successful with TG." Well, it's a 51-point talent, so that goes out the window. If TG is not a DPS increase, and isn't competitive, then adding new talents to make a bad talent less bad isn't the way to fix it.

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Old 09/23/08, 3:40 PM   #2358
Graul
King Hippo
 
Graul's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Fenris
Originally Posted by Mercy XXVI View Post
I don't understand why the idea to give us more hit from talents keeps getting tossed around. If they give TG a 15% hit penalty, and then they have to throw in another talent to offset said penalty, then the talent design fails. The only explanation for that would be "Well, we wanted to make you invest a lot into Fury to be successful with TG." Well, it's a 51-point talent, so that goes out the window. If TG is not a DPS increase, and isn't competitive, then adding new talents to make a bad talent less bad isn't the way to fix it.
The one argument that Ghost keeps returning with is that no talent should increase your damage so much that it "makes the tree", yet I'd like to see any real working Arms builds without MS and any from Fury without Bloodthirst. Anyway, as she's stated they would rather fix the overall talents in the tree as a whole instead of trying to make one single ability so powerful that it makes up for the shortcomings of the previous talents, I came up with this:

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [GC] Realistic Fury tree improvements here...

It still makes one-handed weapons "viable" which she seems to think needs to happen even though she also said "We absolutely see Warriors using two-handed weapons" and that "Titan's Grip should not be a hard choice".

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Old 09/23/08, 3:55 PM   #2359
Montegomery
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Sutiru
Undead Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Brgid View Post
Hm, hadn't even considered an Incite build (is there discussion of it earlier in this thread, or can anyone link to one)... although a 25/46 build does grab Imp Berserker Rage if not Imp Bloodrage?

At the moment my warrior is not even 70 yet (levelling her with the plan of being a new main in LK) and I find HS is approximately 5-10% of my damage, if that - but I presume that changes significantly with level cap and gearing out :-)
This build is what I see for your 25/46/0. I don't see how you can take Imp Berserker Rage without sacrificing important DPS talents, moreso if your raid needs you for Commanding Presence.

This build is what I see for basic Incite.

HS becomes a vastly greater % of your DPS in raiding situations, particularly as you progress further. In addition the HS Glyph only further increases its useage as its rage cost drops to 2 rage on a crit. It's very likely that you'll be using HS almost every swing past T7.

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Old 09/23/08, 4:03 PM   #2360
Gruntle
King Hippo
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade View Post
In addition the HS Glyph only further increases its useage as its rage cost drops to 2 rage on a crit. It's very likely that you'll be using HS almost every swing past T7.
Maybe I'm nitpicking, but the true cost of HS is way more than 2 rage even with a crit. You have to take the rage lost from the white swing as well. To compare you would have to use the rage lost from a white crit, which will be on the order of 20 or so (with a 1h build). But sure, you'll be using HS a lot in both 1h and TG builds (unless rage generation is severely nerfed by normalization changes).

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Old 09/23/08, 4:11 PM   #2361
Grymm
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Shadowmoon
I keep seeing it referenced in posts, but I have yet to come up with a justification for the thought that TG is a DPS decrease. I quickly did some calcs on a build using arms to axe spec and dwing 1 handers with the rest fury and compared it to a TG build and I could not get the TG build to come out behind. Even at 0% hit from gear (3% from talents) TG did almost 4% more damage on paper due mostly to synergy with 2 hand spec. Warrior dps might be low but I don't see where by pting 1 pt in TG you could lose DPS. Now, I couldn't say if it's better than a completely different build, but it would seem the mechanics of it are proper for it to be a strong DPS talent provided warrior dps as a whole comes up to par. I eager await the first numbers pass to see what blizzard thinks of warrior dps when balancing it against the other classes.

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Old 09/23/08, 4:26 PM   #2362
Graul
King Hippo
 
Graul's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Fenris
I keep seeing it referenced in posts, but I have yet to come up with a justification for the thought that TG is a DPS decrease.
It's not a decrease and I don't know why this is said either. The problem is that in it's current form it's also not really that much of a DPS increase at 70. At level 80 and higher levels of gear it also falls behind one-handed DW Incite builds, and this was before it's 15% penalty. The same amount of stats lost from another 15% hit could have been around 1277 AP or 7% more crit.

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Old 09/23/08, 4:33 PM   #2363
Montegomery
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Sutiru
Undead Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Gruntle View Post
Maybe I'm nitpicking, but the true cost of HS is way more than 2 rage even with a crit. You have to take the rage lost from the white swing as well. To compare you would have to use the rage lost from a white crit, which will be on the order of 20 or so (with a 1h build). But sure, you'll be using HS a lot in both 1h and TG builds (unless rage generation is severely nerfed by normalization changes).
It's a fair nitpick. I left it out as I felt the point was that HS wouldn't be both killing rage generation and costing a big chunk of rage. However, I will nitpick in kind.

15% of HS crits in an incite build would not have been crits were they a normal swing. ~20% of the normal swings should also be glancing blows, which on average do only 70% damage on a boss. As a result, the average effective rage loss of an HS crit isn't 20, but 14.

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Old 09/23/08, 4:36 PM   #2364
Grymm
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Shadowmoon
Personally, I consider the penalty to be about 9% hit as I usually had 14% + hit anyway in DW fury gear. Are these comparisons at level 70 where a TG build does not have access to impale/deep wounds/2hd spec? I would think at level 80 and higher gear, the innate amount of hit you would acrue would passive remove some of the TG penatly. Also, with incite, you won't have as much investment into the arms tree. At higher crit levels, the additional crit from incite actually provides less of an overall DPS increase. Hmmm.

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Old 09/23/08, 4:39 PM   #2365
Graul
King Hippo
 
Graul's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Fenris
Originally Posted by Grymm View Post
Personally, I consider the penalty to be about 9% hit as I usually had 14% + hit anyway in DW fury gear. Are these comparisons at level 70 where a TG build does not have access to impale/deep wounds/2hd spec? I would think at level 80 and higher gear, the innate amount of hit you would acrue would passive remove some of the TG penatly. Also, with incite, you won't have as much investment into the arms tree. At higher crit levels, the additional crit from incite actually provides less of an overall DPS increase. Hmmm.
How does the crit contribution become less valuable? In terms of Flurry uptime this is a good point, but at what crit rate does crit lose it's overall weight for Impale/Deep Wounds, Rampage, Bloodsurge and Meta gems?

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Old 09/23/08, 4:44 PM   #2366
orgasmatron
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Did they change the agi-->crit conversion? I got 2,89 more crit in battle stance on beta than on live. Same gear and I dont see any arms talent that increases crit.

I hate Vem.

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Old 09/23/08, 4:45 PM   #2367
Grymm
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Shadowmoon
Well, if you do 100% damage but have 0 crits/misses/glances and then you gain 1% crit, you do 101% damage. As your crit percent goes up, if you had 50% crit you would do 150% damage. However, from a point of view of someone who always had 50% crit, that 150% damage is in fact their baseline. Therefore, every 1% crit they add on their character does not add 1% damage. It would take 1.5% crit for them to feel a 1% damage increase.

Incite crit adds a flat amount of damage with small flurry uptime returns. A skill like 2 hand spec adds a scaling return. The higher your crit base, the lower an overall dps increase incite is in relation. However, 2 hand spec is always a 6% dps increase. So, relatively speaking, crit as a percent increaser is regressing while 2 hand spec holds the same. At some theoretical point (which may or may not exist like if it was 450% crit) they cross.

It's really just a quality of the talents. One is more of a flat return while the other is purely scaling.

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Old 09/23/08, 5:57 PM   #2368
Writhe
Von Kaiser
 
Writhe's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Die Aldor
Originally Posted by orgasmatron View Post
Did they change the agi-->crit conversion? I got 2,89 more crit in battle stance on beta than on live. Same gear and I dont see any arms talent that increases crit.
Your post would be better suited for this discussion don't you think?

Does anyone know if there is a difference between thunderclap on beta and TC on the PTR? I took my warrior for a whirl last night around in lowbie blood furnace and had no trouble keeping around 10-15 mobs stuck to me before my paladin started getting beat on.

I also noticed how horribly bad shockwave was implemented. Love the ability but the cone is horrible when you have enough targets due to the mobs spreading themselves out around you end up moving out of the LOS of the ability. Pretty upsetting when it's such a great ability. Should have been an AOE like Taurens stomp or TC or at least make it on a frontal 180degrees. The range should also be increased to match its graphic in my opinion (anyone remember the shockwave or deathcoil in wc3? reminded me heaps of that)

Last edited by Writhe : 09/23/08 at 6:05 PM. Reason: typo

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

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Old 09/23/08, 6:15 PM   #2369
Bronwyn
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Alleria (EU)
@Graul, I would so love to support your suggestions on the Beta-Forums, but being European, I can't even log in there. Totally signed, just in case one of the devs reads this.

Titan's Grip -is- classdefining as no one but fury warriors will be able to wield two 2Handers. I would love to be able to use this talent.

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Old 09/23/08, 6:21 PM   #2370
Gurro
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warrior
 
Magtheridon
For a DW Fury warrior the spread of DPS for abilities looks something like this:

White Attacks ~40%
Heroic Strikes ~30%
Bloodthirst ~15%
Whirlwind ~8%
Execute ~7%
Deep Wounds ~1%

Here is me doing my 2300dps on Brut and my numbers are pretty much spot on.
Wow Web Stats

Now obviously that layout will change quite a bit with TG. Less Heroic Strike, replaced with some Slam DPS. Whirlwind will go up. New Deep Wounds might help a little, but since each crit still resets it, probably not. I am not sure if Execute will even be worth it unless you throw on at least a fast off hand.

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Old 09/23/08, 7:03 PM   #2371
Graul
King Hippo
 
Graul's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Fenris
Execute is worth it (now anyway) even with just a single 3.5 speed weapon. It would be worth it still after the potion nerf if you save your only Haste potion for sub 20%. With 10% passive haste, Flurry and Windfury you'll be swinging at 2.1 speed. Toss in your one haste potion or DST equivalent (if there is one of course) and you should be fine beating the GCD at least for a while. After that, efficiency might die off a bit, but not enough to make it worth swapping weapons out for, especially when you would still want to WW.

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Old 09/23/08, 8:44 PM   #2372
Liar
VROOM VROOM
 
Liar's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by orgasmatron View Post
Did they change the agi-->crit conversion? I got 2,89 more crit in battle stance on beta than on live. Same gear and I dont see any arms talent that increases crit.
Warriors (and I think Paladins) got a flat +3% crit bonus because they changed the agi --> crit ratios for the worse I believe.


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Old 09/24/08, 3:59 AM   #2373
Frederic
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Burning Legion
Originally Posted by Buka View Post
Key words here: "right now". Beta is not over yet, nor did they make "final pass" on the dps specs. No one said: "hey, warriors, we finished work on your Fury tree!". So, i guess, it's a bit early questioning TGs viability.

Yeah, you are -- endless QQ's on rogues forums . The +9% to hit for 3-point talent would be OP. And, i guess, +9% to hit to white attacks would fully cover any loss of TG's 10% hit penalty on yellow attacks in dps wise (so, why we need this penalty again?). Not to mention a lot better rage generation.
Ghostcrawler implied pretty heavily that TG is staying that way until they release the patch, and that further tweaks will come after evaluating performance on live. Additionally, since they're pretty dead-set against buffing TG, one-hander specs are getting the same treatment in terms of number refinement in terms of end result.

As for the precision idea, you should really go take a look at that parse provided by Gurro. Only about 40% of his damage is normal attacks, which would put a ~9% normal hit precision as being a fairly slight buff which actually declines in usefulness as gear improves and HS becomes more common. I'm looking at this as a way to improve the "base" DPS of warriors through steady rage generation in poor gear. The suggestion on the TG hit penalty just complements this nicely in terms of making stats scale in a predictable fashion and happens to coincide with a number that many warriors feel is appropriate as a penalty (10% miss).

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Old 09/24/08, 8:09 AM   #2374
Ronnie
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Vek'nilash (EU)
Originally Posted by Gurro View Post
New Deep Wounds might help a little, but since each crit still resets it, probably not
New Deep Wounds is anywhere between 5% to 10% of a TG Warrior's total damage.

This is almost a tenfold increase from deep wounds on live. All that for 3 talent points.

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Old 09/24/08, 9:28 AM   #2375
Ballistae
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
I'm sorry, but I'm confused by the different statements about Vigilance. What is it's current functionality? Does it provide a "threat transfer" or not?

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