Problem is: Titan's Grip builds are exceedingly terrible right now, which is why people are questioning it's viability.

Anyways, just throwing something out there in relationship to TG's hit penalty and the relative suckiness of Fury on the PTR: what if precision was changed to +9% normal attack hit and the TG penalty was reduced to -10% special hit? A 19% / 19% miss rating for white / yellow would make gear decisions a little more clear-cut and would be a fair bit less onerous. Of course, if that's too low to be considered balanced it would be fairly easy to raise the numbers, but I guess what I'm getting at is why not make the yellow cap and white coincide in the interest of keeping scaling consistent? Am I missing something here?

Key words here: "right now". Beta is not over yet, nor did they make "final pass" on the dps specs. No one said: "hey, warriors, we finished work on your Fury tree!". So, i guess, it's a bit early questioning TGs viability.

Yeah, you are -- endless QQ's on rogues forums . The +9% to hit for 3-point talent would be OP. And, i guess, +9% to hit to white attacks would fully cover any loss of TG's 10% hit penalty on yellow attacks in dps wise (so, why we need this penalty again?). Not to mention a lot better rage generation.

I'm pretty sure they did but now they seem to contradict themselves (I'll edit with the quote when the forum will be available). Basically Ghostcrawler says the fury tree should work fine dual wielding 1 handed weapons and TG shouldn't be mandatory (but maybe she means this for low level players but really would this really matter ?).

Edit : here is the link : WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> I know it's not your favorite topic, GC...

And the quote : Ghostcrawler (answering to someone who said : "The Fury tree is no longer competitive using 1h weapons. The entire tree builds up to Titan's Grip, which now requires an unrealistc amount of hit to cap specials.") : "The first part is the problem that actually needs fixing. Fury is designed as a dual-wield tree. It should work fine without Titan's Grip. If your damage is too low across the board, we're not going to address that by giving you an insane ability that boosts your dps by a huge amount at the very bottom of the tree."

I'm cool with leveling the dps field, but where's our threat dump? I get real tired of not being able to dps while the tanks generate a bigger lead.

Vigilance?

Hm, hadn't even considered an Incite build (is there discussion of it earlier in this thread, or can anyone link to one)... although a 25/46 build does grab Imp Berserker Rage if not Imp Bloodrage?

At the moment my warrior is not even 70 yet (levelling her with the plan of being a new main in LK) and I find HS is approximately 5-10% of my damage, if that - but I presume that changes significantly with level cap and gearing out :-)

The one argument that Ghost keeps returning with is that no talent should increase your damage so much that it "makes the tree", yet I'd like to see any real working Arms builds without MS and any from Fury without Bloodthirst. Anyway, as she's stated they would rather fix the overall talents in the tree as a whole instead of trying to make one single ability so powerful that it makes up for the shortcomings of the previous talents, I came up with this:

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [GC] Realistic Fury tree improvements here...

It still makes one-handed weapons "viable" which she seems to think needs to happen even though she also said "We absolutely see Warriors using two-handed weapons" and that "Titan's Grip should not be a hard choice".

This build is what I see for your 25/46/0. I don't see how you can take Imp Berserker Rage without sacrificing important DPS talents, moreso if your raid needs you for Commanding Presence.

This build is what I see for basic Incite.

HS becomes a vastly greater % of your DPS in raiding situations, particularly as you progress further. In addition the HS Glyph only further increases its useage as its rage cost drops to 2 rage on a crit. It's very likely that you'll be using HS almost every swing past T7.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, but the true cost of HS is way more than 2 rage even with a crit. You have to take the rage lost from the white swing as well. To compare you would have to use the rage lost from a white crit, which will be on the order of 20 or so (with a 1h build). But sure, you'll be using HS a lot in both 1h and TG builds (unless rage generation is severely nerfed by normalization changes).

I keep seeing it referenced in posts, but I have yet to come up with a justification for the thought that TG is a DPS decrease. I quickly did some calcs on a build using arms to axe spec and dwing 1 handers with the rest fury and compared it to a TG build and I could not get the TG build to come out behind. Even at 0% hit from gear (3% from talents) TG did almost 4% more damage on paper due mostly to synergy with 2 hand spec. Warrior dps might be low but I don't see where by pting 1 pt in TG you could lose DPS. Now, I couldn't say if it's better than a completely different build, but it would seem the mechanics of it are proper for it to be a strong DPS talent provided warrior dps as a whole comes up to par. I eager await the first numbers pass to see what blizzard thinks of warrior dps when balancing it against the other classes.

It's not a decrease and I don't know why this is said either. The problem is that in it's current form it's also not really that much of a DPS increase at 70. At level 80 and higher levels of gear it also falls behind one-handed DW Incite builds, and this was before it's 15% penalty. The same amount of stats lost from another 15% hit could have been around 1277 AP or 7% more crit.

Personally, I consider the penalty to be about 9% hit as I usually had 14% + hit anyway in DW fury gear. Are these comparisons at level 70 where a TG build does not have access to impale/deep wounds/2hd spec? I would think at level 80 and higher gear, the innate amount of hit you would acrue would passive remove some of the TG penatly. Also, with incite, you won't have as much investment into the arms tree. At higher crit levels, the additional crit from incite actually provides less of an overall DPS increase. Hmmm.

How does the crit contribution become less valuable? In terms of Flurry uptime this is a good point, but at what crit rate does crit lose it's overall weight for Impale/Deep Wounds, Rampage, Bloodsurge and Meta gems?

Did they change the agi-->crit conversion? I got 2,89 more crit in battle stance on beta than on live. Same gear and I dont see any arms talent that increases crit.

Well, if you do 100% damage but have 0 crits/misses/glances and then you gain 1% crit, you do 101% damage. As your crit percent goes up, if you had 50% crit you would do 150% damage. However, from a point of view of someone who always had 50% crit, that 150% damage is in fact their baseline. Therefore, every 1% crit they add on their character does not add 1% damage. It would take 1.5% crit for them to feel a 1% damage increase.

Incite crit adds a flat amount of damage with small flurry uptime returns. A skill like 2 hand spec adds a scaling return. The higher your crit base, the lower an overall dps increase incite is in relation. However, 2 hand spec is always a 6% dps increase. So, relatively speaking, crit as a percent increaser is regressing while 2 hand spec holds the same. At some theoretical point (which may or may not exist like if it was 450% crit) they cross.

It's really just a quality of the talents. One is more of a flat return while the other is purely scaling.

Your post would be better suited for this discussion don't you think?

Does anyone know if there is a difference between thunderclap on beta and TC on the PTR? I took my warrior for a whirl last night around in lowbie blood furnace and had no trouble keeping around 10-15 mobs stuck to me before my paladin started getting beat on.

I also noticed how horribly bad shockwave was implemented. Love the ability but the cone is horrible when you have enough targets due to the mobs spreading themselves out around you end up moving out of the LOS of the ability. Pretty upsetting when it's such a great ability. Should have been an AOE like Taurens stomp or TC or at least make it on a frontal 180degrees. The range should also be increased to match its graphic in my opinion (anyone remember the shockwave or deathcoil in wc3? reminded me heaps of that)

For a DW Fury warrior the spread of DPS for abilities looks something like this:

White Attacks ~40%
Heroic Strikes ~30%
Bloodthirst ~15%
Whirlwind ~8%
Execute ~7%
Deep Wounds ~1%

Here is me doing my 2300dps on Brut and my numbers are pretty much spot on.
Wow Web Stats

Now obviously that layout will change quite a bit with TG. Less Heroic Strike, replaced with some Slam DPS. Whirlwind will go up. New Deep Wounds might help a little, but since each crit still resets it, probably not. I am not sure if Execute will even be worth it unless you throw on at least a fast off hand.

Execute is worth it (now anyway) even with just a single 3.5 speed weapon. It would be worth it still after the potion nerf if you save your only Haste potion for sub 20%. With 10% passive haste, Flurry and Windfury you'll be swinging at 2.1 speed. Toss in your one haste potion or DST equivalent (if there is one of course) and you should be fine beating the GCD at least for a while. After that, efficiency might die off a bit, but not enough to make it worth swapping weapons out for, especially when you would still want to WW.

Warriors (and I think Paladins) got a flat +3% crit bonus because they changed the agi --> crit ratios for the worse I believe.

Ghostcrawler implied pretty heavily that TG is staying that way until they release the patch, and that further tweaks will come after evaluating performance on live. Additionally, since they're pretty dead-set against buffing TG, one-hander specs are getting the same treatment in terms of number refinement in terms of end result.

As for the precision idea, you should really go take a look at that parse provided by Gurro. Only about 40% of his damage is normal attacks, which would put a ~9% normal hit precision as being a fairly slight buff which actually declines in usefulness as gear improves and HS becomes more common. I'm looking at this as a way to improve the "base" DPS of warriors through steady rage generation in poor gear. The suggestion on the TG hit penalty just complements this nicely in terms of making stats scale in a predictable fashion and happens to coincide with a number that many warriors feel is appropriate as a penalty (10% miss).

New Deep Wounds is anywhere between 5% to 10% of a TG Warrior's total damage.

This is almost a tenfold increase from deep wounds on live. All that for 3 talent points.

I'm sorry, but I'm confused by the different statements about Vigilance. What is it's current functionality? Does it provide a "threat transfer" or not?