The duration of Sunder Armor is probably bugged. An armor debuff without duration is plain and simple not workable in Arenas.
And I have no idea what they mean with "Last until cancelled" either. It's not like you can click off debuffs on your character or something.

TfB being one charge is old I think.

Vigiliance is still sort of meh. It's pretty much the same old placeholder talent from Alpha, our weakest 31 talent so far. Maybe even of all classes.

Until cancelled is the "fallback text" for duration text on a tooltip which will display if it's duration isn't properly defined in the data files. You can see it pop up a lot when examining the tooltips of mob only abilities, a lot of them have text in it like "lasts for until cancelled" despite that making no sense.

So when you suddenly see something's tooltip change to "Until cancelled" instead of a duration, it's likely it has a bugged tooltip.

or maybe "until canceled" just means you need to get out of combat? So the sunders will remain on the mob until it dies or resets the fight.

It's said "last until canceled" on the tooltip the past few patches. It didn't change the functionality in anyway. The debuff would still wear off after 30 seconds.

I believe the "Until it's cancled" means "Until another debuff overrides it that's better" Remember there are several other abilities that can overwrite the armor debuff (what else they are escapes me but they exist I remember seeing a list). So if that armor debuff is better then it 'cancels' sunder armor. If not then it stays up there forever, no 30s timer anymore.


Vigilance is still useless but I managed to come up with a decent spec that I think would be my primary raiding/leveling spec at 80. Mostly arms can sit by the wayside.


At 70:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000


At 80:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000


If you wanted to pickup more arms you could drop anticipation by a point or 2 to make up for it. Feedback on it?

Your build at 70 is exactly what I have planned barring any further talent changes. Take two points from Cruelty and move them to Impale and that'll be me at 80 (again, given the current PTR/beta info).

The last 5-10 points is really a matter of taste and we probably won't really know how much we need the extra rage conservation, threat from damage or utility talents over the others for awhile. Once Blizz has their mechanics more firmly set in place the Min/Max-minded folks will do their thing and we'll find out if talenting to suit your playstyle will cripple you as an endgame tank much if at all.

Everything is still heavily subject to change and if future changes end up making Puncture, Imp Spell Reflect, Safeguard, Vigilance and Imp Revenge all more lucrative we'll actually have some tough decisions to make and I think we'd see a lot more variation between the builds people want to play as.

If we assume that now sunder lasts untill boss is dead i only see another buff to ferals and tankadins. One warrior in raid is allready enough to keep the debuff up so the prot warrior gets removed.

With this change the latter will just not whine about having to refresh it, assuming always no EA is used (although now that debuffs will not stack i see it becoming way more valuable).

Chicken and Ultramax already explained what "Lasts until cancelled" means, so can we please stop arguing about it? Especially construing it as a Non-Warrior tank buff strikes me as really silly.

Ambika, your spec looks solid. Personally I would pull 3 points off from Cruelty and dump them into Impale and Anger Management. AM is pretty nice for a pre-combat BR, giving you around ~23 rage and great for fights like Felmyst where you have some idle time to build up some rage.

What are peoples views on this spec. I can't figure out wether it will be better to drop tm and impale for cruelty - I'm not the best with math. It sadens me not to get imp revenge with the talent finally being somewhat useful, but untill they take revenge off the gcd it won't be in any SnB builds let alone on anyones hot bar or in anyones rotation.

Plus I can't seem to get TM in there without dropping threat / mitigation sorry liar..

As I said before i won t take TM. Why do you think it s usefull? The one and only situation which comes to my mind where i need to stancedance is using berserkerrage due to fear. So I ll just "dance" once in a lifetime (to stress it a bit compared to other abilities) and i can take over 15 more ragepoints for ... what? Berserkerrage doesn t cost rage at all and punshing out one dmg ability with x80 threat instaed of x207 isn t worth it either. sure, when i switch back to def, i could still have 25 rage - but as this situation occures very rarely, it isn t worth 3 talentpoints for me.

Improved spell reflect in its current state isn t good for the tank as i stated before. I d suggest to put those points into cruelty.

puncture ... we ll see if it s usefull or if we get enough rage to drop it. Once 3.0 hit the live-servers, i ll drop it and see, what will happen.

erm... when did Blizzard remove the weapons talent which gave 3/6 rage on parry? I totally missed that O_O

1/3 TM is pretty much useless for a full time MT build, however if you ever get called to DPS then this one point will give you so much flexibility. Disarm, Spell Reflect and Thunderclap are all abilities where it is beneficial to be able to use it instantly, then go back to Berserker stance.

Totally meant anger management not TM sorry. TM is pretty useless with Warbringer I agree.

I really can't comment about whether you will need puncture in a raid setting. I have my severely under-geared warrior on the ptr and rage is fine for heroic trash (mainly because I'm pulling 6+). But I get rage starved pretty quick on bosses trying to keep up with retadin threat.

As for imp spell reflect that is your choice that you use it to tank casters from a distance. To be honest though with heroic throw and gag order it will be quite moot and unneeded, also having warbringer means you can charge bash/SS casters while staying in defensive. Its just a different play style. The extra resistance to spells is what I pick it up for in my build. I think the covering extra party members is nice for pvp and will no doubt have a raid encounter where you get to call out "x and y are vulnerable to z spell, stack on the warrior for spell reflect". I assume spell reflect damage will get threat removed soon enough if people complain about this too.

nice thought, but it says "... closest PARTY members", nothing bout raid. In any way, yours or mine concerns, it needs some tweaking.

Hm, it s more like "passive range tanking". E.G. hyjal, waiting in front of everyone else, reflecting the first casts and that s it! Now i just need to use it on CD (would have loved lowered CD from improved spell reflect, sadly it s gone), while i can concentrate on other mobs... works pretty fine.

nooo, don t even think of that!

I don't get your point. Care to explain? Raids still have parties. I'm surprised they didn't make the tooltip say raid members when the big move this patch was raid wide buffs.

Still fail to see your point. In this situation the closest party members would most likely be tanks... not healers or rogues. Either way why are you trying to tank the casters in Hyjal trash. Melee dps seem to take them down fine with a couple hots thrown their way.

I still think being able to share a spell reflect with another (possibly non warrior) tank in the group is nice. This was probably the original intention. Now that paladin MT can tank this raid boss where a spell reflect is needed. If you have two warriors you get a spell reflect every 5 seconds.

I must be reading it wrong above, so forgive me if I"m mistaken, but it's a bug and does get drop after 30 seconds correct?


You mean at level 80 spec? Currently I spec into AM as it helps keep the rage going for fights like BB where i can stand there and generate rage even though nothing is happening.

By your recommendation try something along these lines?

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000


with Improved Charge I get a nice solid rage buildup at the start of a fight so for 5mans it might be useful. Raiding it might be worthless as I haven't heard of boss fights where they don't hit like trucks with megatons of rage being generated.

Sunder timer mechanic is unchanged. Tooltip is a bug.

I have almost a mirror image of that 70 build. Is the lack of 5% crit THAT noticeable or is it working out better than you thought?

I feel the strength benefits from the new mechanics and armored to the teeth at least help offset it if not make up for it already. That's just a feeling though. Haven't tried to quantify it yet though. The warbringer + imp charge combo is *really* hard to pass up though in terms of grinding quests and just generally making instances fun. All that together makes me think I can fast track cruelty for the points starting at 71 til it's full. Then hit the imp heroic strike and impale.

Sorry if I have skipped over others saying the same thing, but do others think that the Shield Specialisation talent is now very much optional?

A block simpleisn't as valuable as a dodge, miss or parry, this is shown in the returns from Shield block rating where you need far less to get a % point of block.
Additionally, now that we will no longer be spamming shield block for every attack, the 2 rage return probably isn't gonig to be all that much returned when compared to many of the other talent options.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I haven't had the pleasure of getting into the WotLK beta to parse things in game for myself, but the above posted Prot talent spec (no Shield Specialisation) is what I currently think is my best fit. After getting what I think are the more essential Tanking role talents I probably tend to spalsh on the side of 5/10 person raid tanking utility and higher DPS options.

What do others think? Are there more worthwhile talents that can be taken in place of Shield Spec - now that we can spend the first 5 in the tree usefully elsewhere?

I've been following the thread a while, but I don't recall anyone testing how shield block and critical block interact yet. If I missed it feel free to ignore this:

Shield Block doubles your base block value before percentage modifiers, (IE SHield mastery and Meta gem) It does NOT double the modifier. I wonder if that is intended.

Critical block DOES double the modifier.

Shield block and crit block stack additively. Since SB does not include percentage modifiers, you block for a little less than triple when you crit block with SB up.

I do believe it's already been mentioned that Damage shield and Shield slam are both affected, but I tested that too, just to be sure. 1500 non-crit shield slams on a rogue in a duel, wearing tank gear, is just plain mean. :P

Shield Block increases block value by 100%, that means it will indeed be 230% with Shield Mastery and not 260%. Same with meta gem etc.
Critical blocks double the blocked amount, if you happen to have Shield Block up as well, it will be 400% of your normal block value (460% with Shield Mastery).