outcast

Does the "new" Enrage in Fury proc from non-direct damage, for example from raidwide AoE damage that's flying around? The wording seems to imply it only procs from direct damage.

Also, how is Rampage/Flurry uptime in Fury oriented gear at lvl80? Crit seems to be way down via ratings and the shift towards needing to gear with +hit.

 

Dots

Just wanted to add that Vigilance now redirects 10% of the threat done by the target to the warrior. The usefulness of this still seems questionable considering that threat isn't a big issue to begin with. I guess it might help a bit with tanking groups in 5 mans when placed on the person that does the most AE damage.

 

Darmon

What is your source on this?

 

Dots

Tested it myself on beta with a threat meter mod.
The spell data also shows a 100% proc threat redirect now: Vigilance - Spell - World of Warcraft , Vigilance - Spell - World of Warcraft

 

Misko

I'm really glad someone posted that vigilance still has the threat siphon. I was personally convinced of it when I'd throw it on the top dps in my current group and then have very few aggro issues from there on out. But without a meter that I can really understand I couldn't test it. If you could possibly post a SS of the tests from your threat meter showing this? The 2 versions of vigilance posted could imply that one is from a later version.

 

Dots

The second spell I linked is the actual proc effect, it is linked under the first spell. I didn't take any screenshots but it's easy to verify by anyone that can be bothered to do it again.

 

Coeus

I must be missing something, but there seems to be a general meh-ness on Imp Spell Reflect for PvE. While I understand the threat issue, people seem to just be skipping over the passive +2% chance to be missed per talent point. I haven't noticed the talent not acting as written on Beta, but I haven't done exhaustive testing, either. Is the complaint the trade off of what 2 points do you drop from elsewhere to get Imp SR? In Raid MT situations, I can't help but to think a MT would be completely remiss for not getting this talent.

 

Luc

I haven't tanked much since the Eye and SSC - and that was over a year ago now.

From what I recall though, there were not many situations that fired fast regluar low or medium targeted damage spells at me as main tank.
Does it apply to AE's?

With 5k or 10k damage spells that happen to fire off every 15 or 20 ot 60 seconds, a 4% greater chance to be missed by then is gonig to be fairly worthless for the raid healing. They have to assume you will get hit and cast/precast for it accordingly.

The only time that I see 4% doing something of note is from a boss who stands there and literally fires targeted spells at you fast enough (1 or 2 spells per second) such that a 4% greater miss rate actually lowers the average damage you take on a minute by minute basis and thus may reliably save yoru heelrs some mana over a long enough fight.

 

Muggins

When all the moons align and everything pops at once it can get quite nasty, for example:



This was at lvl 72, it doesn't happen very often but when it does it puts a great big grin on your face for hours afterwards.

Also, and i could be wrong here and not noticed it before, it seems that devastate has a new sound effect to go along with its strange new animation(which if you haven't heard about it before is a floating sword above your head which hits the target and then flares into bright white light). Sounds like someone sharpening knives and then a 'holy flare' noise, not entirely sure if i like it yet or not.

 

Danin

I'm looking forward to seeing the Falcon Punches prot can pull of at 80. I think the record at 70 was like 12-15k.

Edit: make that 17.5k.

 

Coeus

I see where you're coming from on that and hadn't thought of it that way. I just saw "mitigation/avoidance_talent_17A" and immediately started thinking of the one-off cases where it would be nice. But, it really is an opportunity cost issue. If there was nothing better, it's not a bad talent, but there are a number of good options, now. Hence the general "meh-ness." If they decide to roll in a number of fights where there is a significant increase in tank-targeted spells, the value of this talent will go up.

 

Lithose

Something that has been bothering me since beta began and with the recent changes to some classes, namely the MS effect being easier to apply for Rogues/Hunters (Which is probably a good thing.), it has come to the forefront with me.

Why are warriors now the only (Melee) class without a 2 minute cool down, or less, CC?

The point of warriors not having a CC before was simple, they had an infinite resource pool (Big advantage, obviously.), they dealt a lot of damage, physical debuffs/buffs and they had the MS effect (Which effectively doubled their damage in PvP.)...Later it was also because they were so mobile due to intercept.

However, a lot of that has changed and fairly drastically. In wrath, most of those unique advantages won't be true anymore, or they will be greatly diminished. Is it justifiable now, with these things in mind, to have a DPS class with no form of CC on a semi-regular timer? Granted, I believe the "balance" for this in PvE was to have arms/fury be able to tank, IE, they could always get into a group, even if it wasn't as DPS but what about PvP? Do warriors still bring enough to the table to justify them lacking control in such extreme ways?

Mace stun in BC made up for this, in any given match, though it was sporadic, your opponent was unable to function. This was a poor mechanic, but it did serve as a "CC", as the general purpose of a CC is the make your opponent fall behind, to take away his play time and allow you to capitalize. Mace stun is gone, and thats great for the game, but what about a CC?

I'm really of the opinion that intimidating should should have its cool down lowered, of course this might not be balanced, because by comparison, most other CC's are single target (And in some cases dispelable.). So, I'm not sure, I know though the answer shouldn't be a 21 point prot talent stun as our "CC" fix.

 

Gruntle

I've been looking a bit on the new Recklessness skill. I find it curious that we're not discussing the significant nerf of this ability.

The new skill is on a 5 minute cd and guarantees the 3 next specials to crit. Assume that WW counts as one special (not at all sure this is the case though) and that the three specials used will be 2*BT and 1*WW (theoretically it should be possible to get in 2 WW's and one BT resulting in a ~10% higher damage gain, but I've found it hard to fit this in a 5/3 rotation without affecting the cycle length). I also assumed that Intensify rage is fully talented.

I calculate the added dps as:
(<Average crit damage from 2*BT+1*WW> - <Average swing damage from 2*BT+1*WW>)*(INT(t_tot/cd) + 1)/t_tot,
where swing damage is adjusted for crits/miss/dodges and so on, t_tot is the total fight length, cd is the (talented) cooldown of Recklessness and INT is a function taking the integer part of the number in brackets (i.e. if the fight is 400 you will get 2 Recklessness periods).

Using this formula I estimate the gain in total dps using Recklessness in the above way with a TG build at lvl 70 to 0.8%. With the same kind of calculations I get that the current implementation of Recklessness adds about 1.7% dps over a full fight if used for BT/WW's (only one application over a full fight).

It's tricky to do the calculations for execute phase which is why I've chosen to compare burning the cd in the normal dps cycle. The value of Recklessness will go up when you use it together with other cd's and in Execute phase, but the factor of two nerf will stay the same (or become bigger since with one longer Recklessness per fight you are more likely to have all cd's to burn at the same time and all of it will be in execute phase).

Was is a deliberate decision to nerf Recklessness? I didn't quite catch why they needed to do this. If the skill is to remain as good as it was it need to have the 5 minute cooldown cut by at least half (or perhaps allow more special crits).

 

Darian_TruBlade

Note: Heroic Strike counts as a "special" for Recklessness. You'll have to stop using it if you want WW and BT to benefit. Also, as you're guaranteed to crit your BT you'll be using one of the three charges on a Slam.

Also, be aware that while on any given fight using the live version of Recklessness would be a 1.7% damage increase the 30 minute waiting period is crippling. I often found during progression that I would use Recklessness on an attempt that failed, and lack it for the next 2-3. Farming was worse as you could easy burn through several bosses during the CD. This was particularly troubling in ZA, where you can only effectively use the CD twice for the four timed bosses.

Looking at it from that perspective, the two are actually even, while also benefiting us as our DPS will no longer be balanced around an ability we can only use once every half hour.

 

Solifer

just for all the "off-tanks" worrying about their viability: Don t forget you got INTERVENE! You can reduce someone's agro every 30 secs by 10%! Which other class can do that? Cheer for it baby!

PS: who found the ironic point in here? ...

 

Exiliad

My suspicion (or perhaps more adequately called, hope) lies with the final tuning pass. Recklessness was a huge improvement on our dps on standard length fights, but had a mammoth cooldown. Whilst this balances out the ability in the long run, I do believe it does more harm than good.

When Blizzard goes through adjusting the dps numbers for each of the classes they would obviously include recklessness as a part of a warriors arsenal. However, realistically it is not up for most fights. Whether it be an instance you have on farm where you go through multiple bosses in a 30min period or you're on attempt 12 of your progression night, recklessness is going to be, more often than not. on cooldown.

With this change, it will be up for every attempt (within reason) so the tuning of the dps numbers can result more beneficial to warriors in light of this "recklessness nerf."

 

Barmbul

Last night I tried a fury pve build that took the bare minimum to get TG then went incite.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12053120501341

this leaves two points to either put in UW, improved HS or UF. The question I have is what do you guys think will get the most return in rage? I could dump them all into Imp HS getting 2/3 or Max UF and bring UW to 3/5. *Edit* Just saw a build that put the 2 points into Imp Berz Rage that could also be an option.

Last night using 5/5 UF and one point in IMP HS, I was able to maintain 1310-1330 dps on the level 70 practice dummies. This was with about 2850AP, 39-40% crit (rampaged) and 280 hit rating. Weapons used were Torch(MH un-enchanted) and ZA sword (OH executioner). We have no practice dummies on live to compare but it seems to be a dps upgrade over what I currently do farming.

My gear was basically the same as I use on live except I switched Angelista’s for the Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring, used Archimonde legs instead of bloodboil and re-gemmed for hit. These changes are really going to hurt our best in slot choices. I can’t tell you how many times I have passed on Ring of Deceitful Intent. I might even consider dusting off my violet eye ring.

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• Morsexy

This is a huge design issue it seems. I realize for a long time warriors had the benefit of multiple abilities that were totally unique such as MS, Hamstring, Intercept, Intim Shout (before the fix). The issue in the past wasn't open for debate. Other classes have MS now, and have had that MS ability reviewed to function in an easier fashion. Whether or not you think warriors still have the best overall MS ability, the issue is at least open for debate.

Other classes have a hamstring ability ( ours is not dispellable ) but it still exists. We are also the only class that is totally done if we can't slow you or stun you. This is true for other classes but they have those abilities ( read - no on demand real stun ).

Anti Kite ability ( see below for DK version ) Hunters have range, and while they can be LOS, you can LOS intercept. The point is, the issue was addressed in some way.

Deathknights have a ranged taunt\pull ability. Warrior taunt doesn't work in PVP? You're telling me some combination of Distract\Death Grip won't work on another player in an approved fashion? Honestly, fuck you Blizzard Dev.

Then we come down to a form of CC. We do have two forms of snare. Our only CC, given the general definition of what constitutes CC in the current game, is trinketable every time. This lack of CC was not addressed because we had the arguably best overall CC in the game, Mace stun. With that gone, it is beyond time to give us a 41 point arms talent that is some form of real CC.

Concussion blow, or whatever other form is a huge area of weakness that needs to be addressed.

Before I'm warned again let me quote the rules.

Miscellaneous whining - This includes, but is not limited to, threatening to re-roll, griping about future loss of raid spot, or asserting class weakness relative to some other beta class which may or may not be at the same level of tuning. We are still quite early in the beta. There are at least 2 months of additional balancing to be performed before this goes live. Whatever problems you think exist are likely to be fixed between now and then, and aren't half as bad as you think they are anyway.

This isn't strictly true right? If today is September 25th, and it takes a month (please correct me if I'm wrong) for a game to go Gold and be in the store, there are 16 days left. I'm not saying I'm hysterical Dogs and Cats living together, but we're coming down to the wire for any changes to be made and most of the suggestions about Stance issues, 31-41-51 point talents, and Heroic Throw being slightly underwhelming are pretty big fixes were they to actually address any of them. It seems we're coming into the 'numbers pass' not the change the talents pass. They can change our damage so we do more of it and thus are competitive in a raid environment, but that doesn't solve anything at all. It just takes us from clearly unbalanced pure DPS number wise, to balanced.

 

Weemuu

WoW is an MMO. "Gold" only means discs sent out for pressing. Blizzard doesn't really care what gets put on those discs because they'll force everyone to patch up anyway. So for all intents and purposes, "Gold" means diddly squat for WoW.

Beta will run all the way to the release date, maybe end a few days before to do a final push on server architecture changes and getting things ready for the final production push.

That said, I'm optimistically hopeful for the upcoming warrior changes, mainly prot. I personally don't care much about Arms and Fury.

 

Gellor

I think you will find that a lot of the current best in slot items, will have to be re-evaluated, especially Armor Pen items.

 

Shha

Well a DPS wishlist towards the end of beta - no new talents etc, just a attempt to summarise problems and how to solve them.

1) Arms

Arms problems - the "procs" have doubtful value. They in general are beneficial, but they up the maintenance while providing doubtful benefits. Human reactions arent meaningless. If using some procs gives me 0.5% dps buff, but takes my attention, I would probably rather give up on it.

a) Overpower mechanics. Stance dancing is bad. Period. Why lose 3% crit to get doubtful mechanic, that can or cant work. Just compare - 1 button macro spam vs tracking rend duration, TfB procs and such. Dont get me wrong - Id like some more micromanagement - but such micro should yield visible benefits. Current OP use benefits are well below the natural variation in dps based on rng.

Solution - Lessen the penalty on staying in battle stance - my proposal would be a serious buff to Strength of Arms - maybe 5/10% or at least 4/8 - but they should apply only in battle stance.

b) Sudden Death Mechanic. Problem with executes is that they drop your rage to 0. There is a good chance after SD use, to be rage starved. One way to avoid it , is to wait till just before white swing - but that gets us back to watching swing timer. And still you can get a glancing swing, while having to MS and slam before next one. I found that usually my dps is better by staying above 60 rage and not using executes , instead getting perfect rotation out. There are exceptions, but still the mechanic is a bit iffy and hard to use - execute at 40 rage just usually drops your dps, because it delays your instants. Execute seems to only be truly beneficial if used just before white swing when either at close to 15 rage (and obviously very effective then), or close to 100 rage (then even missing a full MS still you get ahead and rage comes back next swing).

Solution - give the executes after proc some sort of buff - damage, or rage cost reduction. instead change the SD proc from flat 30% on crits, to some normalized proc chance - based on attack speed. Im aware that current dw fast axes+ SD is very competitive, and any real buff to SD would probably push the build off balance - such proc % chance would change it.

Fury

c) Titan Grip still needs some buff. 15% extra hit is still too much in my opinion. Hopefully it will be seen, enough said.

d) Unending Fury - the talent makes little sense. It gives a pretty unneeded rage efficiency for most rage flooded build, with no really effective rage dump. I see two solutions

-1- Change it allow OH swings on slams - like posted before in this thread. make it even 10/20/30/40/50% of OH damage (already reduced) on slams. This gives Fury a new viable rage dump. Thats actually a bit far going change - a bit against what i said at start - but maybe worth it.

-2- If Blizzard REALLY wants us to have rage efficiency talent make it more fun as in "Whenever your special attacks deal damage, you generate 1/2/3/4/5 rage, ". What it would mean:

The old rage reduction is in place for normal hits, and doubled for crits

BUT! it has more effect because :

a) Execute Spam might be a bit easier when getting 5 rage back from every execute. That means any damage from OH will be enough to fuel execute spam, even glancings etc. Remember TG doesnt mean we cant switch to 2 1handers for executes with better consistency and no miss%.

b) It gives Fury situation FUN tool - powerful AOE. With every cleave giving back 10 rage (and i believe a glyph reduces it to 15), with WW in group of mobs actually GENERATING rage, we would have a situational tool in aoe encounters - something to counteract sweeping strikes.

 

• Morsexy

To the first part, fair enough. I understand that intrinsically a MMO is updated like that, but there has to be some schedule for "Major - >Bug Fix - > Minor - > Bug Fix - > Numbers" etc. Sometime, somewhere, we pass a point of "not going to be changed until next pass, scheduled for xxx time". I'm just going off how things work at my company.


As for not caring, seems pretty dumb to me. Currently where I play if you can't play a DPS warrior on Kil'jaedin, you just wouldn't get to join the raid. You have shitty utility in a fight like that where we care more about clearing in under 3-4 hours then getting you your xx upgrade.

I personally don't get how anyone who has played the warrior class enough to where they feel as though they have enough balls to post in a forum like this, is so one sided about the class. I realize there are different degrees, and I may be rarer having been a MT on just about everything along with being a DPSer on everything as well, but you're telling me you don't DPS in ZA? or BT? or Naxx clears for jokes? If you do, and you should really to comment, then you know some of the issues.

This is not an attack on you weemuu, lots of people are of the same mindset, I just feel it leaves us worse off then it should. Main Protection tanks should be clamoring for this stuff as much as a DPS warrior and vice versa. Arms and Fury warriors flipping out about tanking had some effect on the prot changes.

 

Weemuu

@Morsexy: Sorry, you're right. I should have been more detailed in what I was saying. Basically I'm leveling a warrior alt and am really looking forward to the prot changes, as I want to use this character for tanking more than anything. My main is a Mage (as evidenced by the pane to the left) so I get my pure DPS fix there.

That said, I have been following the changes to Warriors pretty closely and do recognize the polish differences between Protection and the Arms / Fury trees. But for now, if 3.0 and the expansion mean I can be a Prot warrior for off-time PvE and PvP, I'll be pretty happy.

 

Hisstok

I agree with you 100%, however you missed one PVE point.

With all of our buffs available to other classes, and being the only class that takes more damage (zerk stance, DW, reck) from all random raid damage, and have no (save shield wall or dropping into def stance and dropping to sad DPS and/or wasting rage) Why would you bring a warrior? Blessing of might lasts MUCH longer, gives the same AP now, and isn't required to be close to the warrior. Blood Frenzy was given to combat rogues (why that spec of that class I will never know) the demo-ish shouts and thunderclaps are consistant across classes and are smack dab in the feral tree where every feral will take them.
The needing-extra-healing issues, combined with having no "outs" (evasion, CoS, ER, ect.) combined with ridiculous itemization issues, I cant see warriors being taken over any other class. If Blizzard wants people to be taken on actual worth, not buffs, they need to address the classes and specs that are only viable /because/ they had unique buffs.
This "you guys scale better" nonsense has to end, fix whatever mechanics make us scale better so every time content gets released we dont feel so screwed, and we don't have to rely on itemization with zero stam to keep "scaling better" like we do currently. Why isnt the titans grip penalty a scaling solution instead of a flat one that noone spare level 80's in epics will ever come close to achieving?
ug, just ug =(

 

Barmbul

Yeah I'm remembering my leveling days in TBC. I was arms and had been one of the top dps in my guild and still could not find a regular group to run 5 mans with. Why? because we had no utility. If you were in the 5 man they prob didn't have a rogue which meant your BS benefited only you. Your only form of cc was tanking a mob with your face which I don't remember going so well in heroics.
If things do not change maybe we will have a chance in 10 mans because 5 mans will be more of the same.

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