I hope this is the correct thread for it, if not please delete this.
With WOTLK I changed main from a holy priest to a dps warrior (arms while leveling in s3 gear, fury now).
I think I got the hang of it, but my dps still seems a bit low when I hear of other warriors pushing 5k on fights like Patchwerk. I've only reached about 3.6k on our last kill, which concerns me, since my gear seems pretty similar or better.
Here you can see a WWS of me versus a dummy, keeping sunders up aswel. I realise a dummy isn't a good comparison to a raid situation, but it's the closest I have as I forgot to log Naxx..
I run out of rage pretty often, not able to spam Heroic Strike the entire time. I have the heroic strike glyph, the others don't really seem to matter much in PvE.
Am I doing something wrong, or am I gearing badly?
I believe I could work on my gems, but I don't think that can explain the big difference in DPS.
I would appreciate any input, even it's just a "l2p".
I hope this is the correct thread for it, if not please delete this.
With WOTLK I changed main from a holy priest to a dps warrior (arms while leveling in s3 gear, fury now).
I think I got the hang of it, but my dps still seems a bit low when I hear of other warriors pushing 5k on fights like Patchwerk. I've only reached about 3.6k on our last kill, which concerns me, since my gear seems pretty similar or better.
Here you can see a WWS of me versus a dummy, keeping sunders up aswel. I realise a dummy isn't a good comparison to a raid situation, but it's the closest I have as I forgot to log Naxx..
I run out of rage pretty often, not able to spam Heroic Strike the entire time. I have the heroic strike glyph, the others don't really seem to matter much in PvE.
Am I doing something wrong, or am I gearing badly?
I believe I could work on my gems, but I don't think that can explain the big difference in DPS.
I would appreciate any input, even it's just a "l2p".
A dummy is, as you say, not the best way to benchmark your consistent damage output while in raids. But nonetheless I can see according to your WWS you delay your BT/WW cycle alot. A warrior never does maximized dps by always using all rage he gets to spam heroic strike. In your WWS you're engaged in combat for 3 minutes and 2 seconds. Bloodthirst is on a 5 second cooldown which means you could optimally push in 36,4 Bloodthirsts during those 182 seconds. Yet you only managed to hit Bloodthirst 18 times out of the 36 optimal. Rage-starving while unbuffed and gcd usage due to keeping sunders up is however an issue when hitting a dummy so I'm pretty sure you don't delay your BT/WW cycle as much in raids. But I'm also pretty sure this is where you're leaking damage. Most non-experienced warriors tend to be HS-ing too much when close to the BT/WW section of the BT/WW cycle, thus delaying their cycle. I'm sure you can gain damage (thus dps) in raids by never heroic strike that much so you can't press BT and WW the moment they are up. Heroic striking isn't wrong per se, but it's the general cause to delays in warriors' BT/WW-cycles.
From what I have seen here, is everyone backing the use of BT and WW before execute? It seems most people are saying that BT hits for more, so would the best plan to be <20% pop recklessnes, BT, WW, execute? Or is it best to use the last Recklessness proc on the slam and then execute till the GCD is up?
Also about using execute, I actually do not believe that is the most damage. A WW crit may be the best attack, rage wise and most chances for flurry but I believe execute should now be used in the exact opposite way it was before. Whereas before you tried to spam executes on every GCD, now with all the passive haste + hero your swing timers are absurdly low, and the nature of how execute works, it is still better to spam execute. That is in my math the lesser of two options. I think that given those speeds, once you have WW on CD sub 20% and Deathwish and Heroism up, your objective is to double white hit, Execute, same, Execute, same, Execute.
Coming out of this you can WW if you happen to be low rage from non crit miss, or something random.
Currently during execute both white weapons net me ~60 rage, thus it doesn't matter if WW is close or better for ~20-30 rage executes, you're rarely going to be firing execute at that rage with proper CD usage.
Last edited by Morsexy : 12/10/08 at 1:00 AM.
Reason: Edit for white rage hit.
Also about using execute, I actually do not believe that is the most damage. A WW crit may be the best attack, rage wise and most chances for flurry but I believe execute should now be used in the exact opposite way it was before. Whereas before you tried to spam executes on every GCD, now with all the passive haste + hero your swing timers are absurdly low, and the nature of how execute works, it is still better to spam execute. That is in my math the lesser of two options. I think that given those speeds, once you have WW on CD sub 20% and Deathwish and Heroism up, your objective is to double white hit, Execute, same, Execute, same, Execute.
Coming out of this you can WW if you happen to be low rage from non crit miss, or something random.
Currently during execute both white weapons net me ~60 rage, thus it doesn't matter if WW is close or better for ~20-30 rage executes, you're rarely going to be firing execute at that rage with proper CD usage.
This of course is all based on the assumption that Bloodlust is up during 20%, most of the time for us it drops off around 20% - 15%.
Few questions regarding Fury:
a) From what I can tell, it's easier to work in a sunder rotation than it is a rogue to keep up Expose Armor?
b) Within execute range, switch to 2 fast 1h weapons and execute spam v.s keeping 2h weapons and BT/WW/Slam/HS rotation?
c) Berserking MH, Massacre OH?
d) To not miss vs a 83 Raid boss, you need 361 hit + 3/3 Precision? (no draenai)
Few questions regarding Fury:
a) From what I can tell, it's easier to work in a sunder rotation than it is a rogue to keep up Expose Armor?
b) Within execute range, switch to 2 fast 1h weapons and execute spam v.s keeping 2h weapons and BT/WW/Slam/HS rotation?
c) Berserking MH, Massacre OH?
d) To not miss vs a 83 Raid boss, you need 361 hit + 3/3 Precision? (no draenai)
a) It depends. If the boss is stationary and you aren't rage starved then yes it is. On a boss like Malygos where it's almost guaranteed to fall off a few times it's much easier for a rogue to keep it up. Depends on the spec of rogue too.
b) You're probably better of keeping your two-handers on and working Execute in whenever BT and WW are on CD.
c) Seems to be the best right now
d) You need 8% (base) + 5% (Titan's Grip) - 3% Precision = 10% hit or 328 rating. That only keeps your specials from missing. The total cap is a lot higher.
d) You need 8% (base) + 5% (Titan's Grip) - 3% Precision = 10% hit or 328 rating. That only keeps your specials from missing. The total cap is a lot higher.
Edited: Thanks for the direction Grayson.
Evidently the base miss chance with wotlk has been reduced to 8% vs bosses.
I have a question about crit immunity. Last night I was doing some dailies in Storm Peaks and found myself fighting a level 79 mob wearing gear that put my defense rating at 543. I had to double take as I saw what looked like a crit go through and on checking the combat log was able to verify that it was indeed a melee crit that had hit. I thought I had understood the way crits worked and that this should be impossible, but is there always some minimum chance for a crit(no matter how improbable)?
I have a question about crit immunity. Last night I was doing some dailies in Storm Peaks and found myself fighting a level 79 mob wearing gear that put my defense rating at 543. I had to double take as I saw what looked like a crit go through and on checking the combat log was able to verify that it was indeed a melee crit that had hit. I thought I had understood the way crits worked and that this should be impossible, but is there always some minimum chance for a crit(no matter how improbable)?
You probably were farming the fire elementals there. They (and the ones in Halls of Lightning) can cast a selfbuff which increases their critchance with 50%. Which surpasses the amount of critchance your 540 defense can protect you against.
What combination of Impale, Deep Wounds, Armored to the Teeth, Cruelty, and Improved Revenge will yield the most threat for the Protection Warrior?
Over at Tankspot new research seems to make it clear that Deep Wounds provides a huge threat boost. But Deep Wounds relies on crit. Is it worth sacrificing AttT for Cruelty under this situation? Or should one go for 0 points in Cruelty? What about taking 1 or more points out of shield specialization and maxing Cruelty? There should be an optimal solution here for any given AP...
I am assuming that we initially take 53 points in protection.
It was the giants in Thunderfall (I believe that's the name of the area). I didn't notice any buffs, but I'll be sure to check again.
I recall a thread in the bug report forums ages ago where a tank in full epics received a crit from a mob in an instance (Sunken Temple I think) while running a guildie's alt through. Blizzard's response was that there is always a very minuscule chance to be crit, even when "uncrittable", it's just so small you'll never see it happen in hundreds of thousands of attacks.
I can't find the thread in question though, and this was years ago so I could be wrong or changes might have since been made.
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
I have a question about crit immunity. Last night I was doing some dailies in Storm Peaks and found myself fighting a level 79 mob wearing gear that put my defense rating at 543. I had to double take as I saw what looked like a crit go through and on checking the combat log was able to verify that it was indeed a melee crit that had hit. I thought I had understood the way crits worked and that this should be impossible, but is there always some minimum chance for a crit(no matter how improbable)?
Is it possible you fat-fingered your X key (or something else, if you've rebound sit) and were in the process of sitting down just before getting hit? That would guarantee a crit and wouldn't be immediately obvious, especially if the crit happened immediately after you hit the key so you didn't get a chance to see the sit animation .
What combination of Impale, Deep Wounds, Armored to the Teeth, Cruelty, and Improved Revenge will yield the most threat for the Protection Warrior?
Over at Tankspot new research seems to make it clear that Deep Wounds provides a huge threat boost. But Deep Wounds relies on crit. Is it worth sacrificing AttT for Cruelty under this situation? Or should one go for 0 points in Cruelty? What about taking 1 or more points out of shield specialization and maxing Cruelty? There should be an optimal solution here for any given AP...
I am assuming that we initially take 53 points in protection.
Even though Deep Wounds relies on crit, it is still not advisable to move points out of AttT and into Cruelty because everything else scales with AP so well. Instead, the current trend for Deep Wounds specs is to take points out of Shield Specialization to get 2/5 Cruelty in a 15/5/51 build. I got around to playing with Deep Wounds in a 25man last night and it was impressive.
Cheers, I'll see what happens if I don't press that heroic strike that often.
Did Nax25 yesterday, I'm quite pleased with the results. The WWS
Close to 4.6k dps on patchwerk, about 1k more than last week with only some small upgrades on the gear.
Still not using BT & WW to their full potential, I'm screwing up alot on the GCD. Rage wasn't a problem though.
If you have some more tips, please don't hesitate.
Even though Deep Wounds relies on crit, it is still not advisable to move points out of AttT and into Cruelty because everything else scales with AP so well. Instead, the current trend for Deep Wounds specs is to take points out of Shield Specialization to get 2/5 Cruelty in a 15/5/51 build. I got around to playing with Deep Wounds in a 25man last night and it was impressive.
With Devotion Aura from someone in the raid, pushing 24k armor is not difficult, so you're looking at 133 AP per point. I'm quite certain 133 AP > 1% crit in almost every situation--especially considering that it is not impossible to be pushing 35-40% crit raid-buffed already.
So, think you're pretty much right there. AttT is a great prot talent, but I view Cruelty as quite optional given that it really is a minimal TPS increase all things considered. (I don't really understand why some would skip, for instance, Vigilance over 1 point in Cruelty, which I have seen in many specs. Vigilance is a ridiculous TPS increase for 1 point.)
Minor options: [Glyph of Charge]
- 30 yd range makes it easier to pick up stragglers banging on your healer
- Easier to charge out of healing range. [Glyph of Bloodrage]
- 8% base health every minute and before each pull. [Glyph of Mocking Blow]
- Especially nice if you're picking up Glyph of Barbaric Insults.
Major Options: [Glyph of Barbaric Insults]
- An extra taunt [Glyph of Cleaving]
- Brings Cleave down to 12 rage, good for trash [Glyph of Heroic Strike]
- HS gains up to 20% crit through talents, this is at least a one in five chance to return 10 rage.
- Nice in combo with Glyph of Revenge
- Helps make up for rage lost from consuming white swings
- If you have enough rage to HS every swing already, this won't help [Glyph of Intervene]
- Protects someone who pulls multiple mobs [Glyph of Last Stand]
- Can Last Stand every 2 minutes for 20% health buff; e.g. twice or more per boss fight [Glyph of Rapid Charge]
- Charge every 12s to corral mobs and generate rage [Glyph of Resonating Power]
- Thunderclap for only 8 rage; great for trash and gauntlets especially at the beginning of a pull when you're low on rage. [Glyph of Revenge]
- "Free" (only cost is lost rage from consumed melee swing) Heroic Strike every 5s or so.
- Again, if you have enough rage to HS every swing already, this won't help [Glyph of Taunt]
- Basically, irresistible taunts
- Useless if you have 9% to hit
- Most bosses will be immune to Taunt anyway
Mostly Useless: [Glyph of Devastate]
- Supposedly adds no additional threat
- Useful to get a Sunder stack up fast, useless afterwards [Glyph of Hamstring]
- Honestly? [Glyph of Sunder Armor]
- Used with Devastate, apparently the second Sunder Armor effect is not rage-free
- It is unclear whether the second Sunder Armor causes any threat
Opinion:
I went with Revenge and HS while leveling. I am giving it a few more weeks, but with the damage changes and TotT, current threat gen is so high I don't think they're providing me much value at the moment.
On the other hand, Last Stand looks like strong protection against oh-shit events. Resonating power looks pretty good, too, considering how much rage is burnt on TC when multi-mob tanking, and how rage is leanest at the start of the pull.
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/11/08 at 2:57 PM.
12/09/08, 7:56 AM
