Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Warriors

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11/19/08, 1:26 PM   #46
Rishkkin
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warrior
 
Area 52
I wouldn't go all out for expertise as a dodged attack means a free OP, but being expertise capped will still be nice anyways

edit : soft capped that is

Last edited by Rishkkin : 11/19/08 at 3:21 PM.

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 1:44 AM   #47
Dayone
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by Mendo View Post
I haven't seen any sort of spreadsheet yet for Arms DPS at level 80, so I was wondering - with the new synergy between Rend and Overpower, as well as a one second cooldown on Overpower when talented, making Battle Stance a viable DPS stance for Arms, is expertise a stat that Arms warriors should worry about? I'm thinking that it would still be better DPS even as Arms to be expertise capped since a Slam or Mortal Strike is more damage than an Overpower, but I'm not really sure how much of a difference it would make. I guess what I'd like to know is whether or not expertise is something worth gemming/gearing for, or if I should gem for Strength/Crit mostly and just take whatever expertise happens to come on the gear I get.
I'm also very interested in PvE 2H arms again. How good is it in 10 mans and 25 mans compared to TG? There's been so much buzz about sudden death, deep wounds, and then titan's grip but is anyone still giving 2H arms a serious thought?

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 2:26 AM   #48
Prinsesa
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Echo Isles
Axira: The dodge you gain from both AGI and Dodge Rating are factored into the same diminishing returns formula. Since you need 73.52 AGI to gain 1% dodge, while you only need 39.34 Dodge Rating to gain 1% Dodge, Dodge Rating is still superior in terms of avoidance gained per item point spent.

Parry and Dodge are on separate diminishing returns formulae, but given that Parry Rating gives less avoidance per point than Dodge Rating even BEFORE diminishing returns, Dodge will still give you better results unless your stats are extremely skewed.

With regards to red-shaded gemmings, I would recommend either Dodge Rating (for the above-mentioned reasons) or STR, whose block value is mitigation, as opposed to Dodge's avoidance.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 11:28 AM   #49
Jamor
Don Flamenco
 
Jamor's Avatar
 
Human Warrior
 
Ysera
Has anyone seen a Glyph of Blocking, or Glyph of Last Stand? I have yet to see one, or hear about one on my server (herbs are stupid pricey though). Just making sure it actually exists in game.

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 11:33 AM   #50
Shha
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Scilla
The resilience/defense and Blood Craze is actually an interesting topic

So facts:

1) Resilience absorbed crits still proc Blood Craze

2) Defense absorbed crits . do not proc Blood Craze

However most people dont know the important result of those 2.

Mobs do not have 5% crit chance vs you like most people think. Sure in the end it seems so because:

a) Mob chance to crit = 5% base + 0.04xWeapon Skill = 5%+0.04*5*mlevel. For a 80 level mob that means its 5%+0.04*5*80% =21%

b) Your base "crit reduction" from defense = your TOTAL defense *0.04 = your lvl*5*0.04 - assuming you capped your defense. So its 16% reduction without any +defense gear.

21-16=5% - so yea its same as the common knowledge. However it has some implications.

Resilience reduction to crits comes on table BEFORE defense reduction to crits. Therefore when a lvl 80 toon RESILIENCE CAPPED toon is attacked by a lvl 80 mob the "combat table" is populated like this.

Mob base chance to crit = 21%. Resilience crit % reduction = 15%. Combat table gets "injected" with 15% "resilience reduced crits" . Then and only then defense comes to play - assuming no defense gear is used you have 16% further crit reduction - since the mob has only 6% chance to crit left that goes to 0, and rest of table is filled with hits and eventual dodge/miss/parry etc.

In the end it means the mob of your level has FIFTEEN % chance to proc Blood Craze on every hit. even though without resilience its chance to crit is only 5%.


In short
a) If crit immune - chance to proc Blood Frenzy = current resilience gear % crit reduction chance.
b) If not crit immune chance to proc Blood Frenzy = current resilience gear % crit reduction chance+final chance to crit.

So in the end putting resilience gear not only doesnt lower your chance of proccing Blood Craze, but in fact in many cases it INCREASES it drastically.

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 11:38 AM   #51
Scaredofbees
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Alexstrasza
Originally Posted by Jamor View Post
Has anyone seen a Glyph of Blocking, or Glyph of Last Stand? I have yet to see one, or hear about one on my server (herbs are stupid pricey though). Just making sure it actually exists in game.
The Glyph of Blocking is a discovery major. Since the mats are ridiculous and the discovery is on a 20hr cooldown, it really comes to luck on which servers are getting it first. I haven't seen it either on our server.

Inscription Research - Northrend Inscription Research - Spell - World of Warcraft

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 12:08 PM   #52
Toots Hepcat
Care for a jelly baby?
 
Toots Hepcat's Avatar
 
Troll Shaman
 
Llane
How big a deal is weapon speed?

Wanted: Ragemane's Flipper offers three tank-specific weapons as rewards. Looks to me like the axe has the best threat gen / farming stats, especially considering the orc racial...but it's really slow. I'm having trouble dumping rage with HS even with my current 1.6s weapon...not that I really need to, since I generally only lose threat when melee does something stupid.

Also: is Devastate normalized?

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 1:31 PM   #53
JamesVZ
Mr. Sandman
 
JamesVZ's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Weapon speed is a huge deal, the faster you can press Heroic Strike, the more damage you do, the more threat you do. Given two weapons of equal DPS for a Protection Warrior, the faster speed will do more damage in the same period of time due to Heroic Strike. Out of those weapons, the mace is by far the best.

Devastate is normalized.

I'm on that good ping and ventrilo, I've got some down bitches I can /tell. I don't know what I would do without y'all, I'mma raid till I get laid.

United States Offline
Old 11/20/08, 3:52 PM   #54
Rupe
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Alleria
Originally Posted by Pewpewfurie View Post
One questions I am not sure of yet is are the enchants like mongoose/executioner diminished like crusader was in BC? How are other new enchants compared to these two? Accuracy seems nice.
I believe they do diminish like most other rating and enchants do. I think the best enchants at the moment for DPS anyways is Berserking. I'm not 80 so have not tested proc rate to see if using 2x Berserking is better or worse than Berserking on MH and Massacre on OH.

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 8:05 PM   #55
Phanuel
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by JamesVZ View Post
Weapon speed is a huge deal, the faster you can press Heroic Strike, the more damage you do, the more threat you do. Given two weapons of equal DPS for a Protection Warrior, the faster speed will do more damage in the same period of time due to Heroic Strike. Out of those weapons, the mace is by far the best.

Devastate is normalized.
Precisely. I have two different swords, 1.6 speed 111 dps and a 2.6 speed 130 dps. I prefer using the 1.6 far more than the 2.6 for more consistent rage generation and when I get into less rage starved situations the heroic strike spam is significantly more threat.

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 9:50 PM   #56
Travor
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Aegwynn (EU)
Originally Posted by Rupe View Post
I believe they do diminish like most other rating and enchants do. I think the best enchants at the moment for DPS anyways is Berserking. I'm not 80 so have not tested proc rate to see if using 2x Berserking is better or worse than Berserking on MH and Massacre on OH.
I think Massacre on OH is pretty much unbeatable, but i'm not quiet sure about the MH enchant.
It really depends on the PPM of Berserking, since it would average out at:

1 PPM and assuming 14k armor (mentioning the downscaling of berserking with the -25% armor debuff while gaining the benefit of AttT and adding imp. Berserker Stance (+10% AP) = ~94 AP

or more like 1,5 PPM = ~140 AP

Massacre is a flat 110 AP (+11 AP imp. Berserker Stance) = 121 AP

so it really depends on the PPM imho

Offline
Old 11/20/08, 10:35 PM   #57
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
PSGarak's Avatar
 
Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Shha View Post
The resilience/defense and Blood Craze is actually an interesting topic

So facts:

1) Resilience absorbed crits still proc Blood Craze

2) Defense absorbed crits . do not proc Blood Craze

However most people dont know the important result of those 2.

Mobs do not have 5% crit chance vs you like most people think. Sure in the end it seems so because:

a) Mob chance to crit = 5% base + 0.04xWeapon Skill = 5%+0.04*5*mlevel. For a 80 level mob that means its 5%+0.04*5*80% =21%

b) Your base "crit reduction" from defense = your TOTAL defense *0.04 = your lvl*5*0.04 - assuming you capped your defense. So its 16% reduction without any +defense gear.

21-16=5% - so yea its same as the common knowledge. However it has some implications.

Resilience reduction to crits comes on table BEFORE defense reduction to crits. Therefore when a lvl 80 toon RESILIENCE CAPPED toon is attacked by a lvl 80 mob the "combat table" is populated like this.

Mob base chance to crit = 21%. Resilience crit % reduction = 15%. Combat table gets "injected" with 15% "resilience reduced crits" . Then and only then defense comes to play - assuming no defense gear is used you have 16% further crit reduction - since the mob has only 6% chance to crit left that goes to 0, and rest of table is filled with hits and eventual dodge/miss/parry etc.

In the end it means the mob of your level has FIFTEEN % chance to proc Blood Craze on every hit. even though without resilience its chance to crit is only 5%.


In short
a) If crit immune - chance to proc Blood Frenzy = current resilience gear % crit reduction chance.
b) If not crit immune chance to proc Blood Frenzy = current resilience gear % crit reduction chance+final chance to crit.

So in the end putting resilience gear not only doesnt lower your chance of proccing Blood Craze, but in fact in many cases it INCREASES it drastically.
I don't think this is how it works. I was under the impression that your resiliance-proced effects was not actually related to the crit that was pushed off the combat table, but simply a direct function of your resiliance.

In more detail: Resiliance does not actually convert a crit into a pseudo-crit on the combat table. It converts a crit into a non-crit, and separately gives a chance to proc on-crit effects. If you have 16% crit reduction from resiliance, this gives you a 16% chance on incoming non-crit to proc crit-related effects for all effects. This is a flat percent and not affected by the incoming effect. Effects that are hard-coded not to crit (for example, Deathcoil) are capable of procing this. Other effects that had a less-than-16% base crit chance (for example, SL-SL warlock nukes have around 10% in PvP gear) have all of their crit removed, which is only a 10% reduction, and yet still give 16% chance to proc crit-related effects.

This was discovered as a result of having odd effects due to hit and crit not being the only results on the combat table. For example imagine you have 75% avoidance, 15% resiliance, and are hit with an effect with 25% crit chance. If resiliance was a pseudocrit effect, then every actual hit would proc your on-crit effect, since all 25% of the hits would have been crits pre-resiliance. This was found not to be the case, every non-crit still only has a 15% chance to proc. This also provides a means of testing to make sure that what I'm saying is still the case. I haven't heard of this being changed, but it's also not the sort of thing that's easy to notice.


Offline
Old 11/21/08, 5:12 AM   #58
2Face
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Burning Legion
I've been tanking a lot of heroics and 10-mans lately, and a lot of pulls require AOE tanking.
I was never a tank pre-LK so I don't know if I'm doing things right.

In a general pull I would:
Pull -> T-Clap -> Demo/Auto-attack -> SS/Rev/Dev/Dev rotation -- (Shockwave somewhere in there, situation depending)

Because I usually have so much rage, I'd cleave in between each special if there are 2 or more mobs (rage permitting), HS when it's single target. I re-apply T-Clap and Demo Shout whenever they're about to expire, but that's it.

Should I be T-Clapping more often? Or is Cleave a better use of rage?

Offline
Old 11/21/08, 5:58 AM   #59
footloop
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Aegwynn
Originally Posted by 2Face View Post
I've been tanking a lot of heroics and 10-mans lately, and a lot of pulls require AOE tanking.
I was never a tank pre-LK so I don't know if I'm doing things right.

In a general pull I would:
Pull -> T-Clap -> Demo/Auto-attack -> SS/Rev/Dev/Dev rotation -- (Shockwave somewhere in there, situation depending)

Because I usually have so much rage, I'd cleave in between each special if there are 2 or more mobs (rage permitting), HS when it's single target. I re-apply T-Clap and Demo Shout whenever they're about to expire, but that's it.

Should I be T-Clapping more often? Or is Cleave a better use of rage?
If there are more than two then Thunderclap is definitely a better choice, if there are exactly two then it's close. Personally I use thunderclap so that I have more rage available to do other things. On aoe pulls I pretty much Tclap every time it's off cooldown.

Offline
Old 11/21/08, 10:13 AM   #60
Rupe
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Alleria
Originally Posted by Travor View Post
I think Massacre on OH is pretty much unbeatable, but i'm not quiet sure about the MH enchant.
It really depends on the PPM of Berserking, since it would average out at:

1 PPM and assuming 14k armor (mentioning the downscaling of berserking with the -25% armor debuff while gaining the benefit of AttT and adding imp. Berserker Stance (+10% AP) = ~94 AP

or more like 1,5 PPM = ~140 AP

Massacre is a flat 110 AP (+11 AP imp. Berserker Stance) = 121 AP

so it really depends on the PPM imho
Assuming 14000 armour unbuffed and discounting any AP modifiers such as Imp. Berserker Stance, you will gain 233.3 AP from AttT. Now assume you have one Berserking proc up your armour will be reduced by 25%, or 3500. This translates to an AP loss from AttT of 58.3, so you have a net gain of 341.7 AP from the proc. In other words, you gain 85.4% of the normal effect..

If you have two procs up at the same time, you will lose 7000 armour and hence 116.7 AP resulting in a net gain of 683.3 AP, which is again 85.4% of the normal effect. However these calculation all assume that the armour reduction affects AP from AttT at all.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Warriors

Thread Tools