I've raided as both Arms and Fury with decent gear from Ulduar and for my gear, personally, Fury has yielded superior DPS. It's not the same for everyone and the best way to determine this (beyond personal preference) is to plug your gear sets for both respective specs into the spreadsheet and figure out which is better. I believe that with BiS weapons (Depravity for Arms, dual Voldrethars for Fury) and the best gear possible in every slot, Fury will come out ahead. Not only does it scale so well with gear, the playstyle is far more forgiving in fights where you have to concentrate on your surroundings, as well as allowing for extra GCDs for raid utility like shouts, sunders, etc. It's entirely realistic to compete for high damage as a warrior of either spec, but I don't think warriors will ever again be the sort of undisputed top damage they were during Naxx.

As far as Armor Penetration goes, it doesn't really matter what spec you are. The spreadsheet will reveal your SEP values with a gear setup, and you gem accordingly. In my Fury setup, ArP drops below 1 SEP, but in my Arms setup it has an SEP value of 1.8. I think most warriors you see with certain BiS gear probably run with Greatness/Runestone; with that trinket setup you mostly gem Strength to maximize DPS because of the trinket capping the stat, regardless of talent spec.

A note about the spreadsheet that people seem to overlook:
Use it to figure out how to gear for each spec. Landsoul has improved it with each iteration and it is a lot better at approximating actual DPS on a single target, stationary fight. However, if you have similar gear and skill with each spec, the difference is going to be the fight mechanics. Are you hitting more than one target for a significant amount of time? Are there haste buffs/debuffs? And so on.

Whenever people say they do more dps with Fury than Arms, I tend to believe it's because they haven't mastered the Arms rotation. Arms is much more complicated rotation than Fury so most people who switch to Arms and only hit buttons when procs happen tend not to do much dps as Arms. I've seen my own dps go up over the past two months as I've gotten better with the rotation. Just this week, I repositioned all my rotation abilities on my UI to be right next to each other and that led to another dps improvement.

BTW...the above dps discussion is single target only. Fury rules in multi-target fights like Razor and Thorim.

Quick question:

Does having 2 same speed weapons still give you 1 extra flurry charge or did they fix it?

Quickie.

Armor pen and sunder armor.

If say a full 5 Sunders are on a boss. Would the max Armor pen you need be 75% or still 100% for a full penetration of armor with the 5 sunders up?

Something very weird happened to me today in eye of the storm and I can't find any explanation.
A protection warrior reflect 2 pyroblasts in a row from me, they didn't land at the same time and there was no lag.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5...ellreflect.jpg

Any idea how this could have happened?

Sunders work independently of your personal ArP. So even if you are maxed out at 100% ArP, your dps will improve with 5 sunders applied to the target.

What should a warrior tank put on his shield if he doesn't need +20 defense rating? I'm looking to increase survivability.

First post on these forums, so hope I'm not breaking a rule by doing this.

I'm copying this post I made on the warrior forums, about bladestorm/whirlwind +sweeping strikes, over to here hopefully get a better insight to what I describe:

Link to my post: World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> Possible Bladestorm/WW + SS Bug..?

Thanks if anyone has any more information on this

Your best options are [Titanium Plating] or [Formula: Enchant Shield - Major Stamina].

The Protection Gear Quick Reference thread is a great source for these type of questions.

I'm still having trouble figuring out block: good, bad, indifferent?

What would benefit a PvP Arms Warrior aiming for Hateful Gladiator and possibly Deadly Gladiator the most, stats-wise? [Runeblade of Demonstrable Power] or [Argent Skeleton Crusher]? I'm teaming with a Frost DK.

I would take the Mace. Better Stats and Mace Spec is > Sword Spec, even in PvP in my opinion.

Hey, I was just wondering if anyone has some math on the ArP VS Str situation, specifically aiming for the Arms math since it's what I play atm. I know ArP is good, but Str is still valuable. Can anyone tell me if there is a certain amount of ArP I should be aiming for, and if I should gem for ArP until I hit that point? And is there a certain point once you get enough ArP from gear when it would be better to gem for Str? Or if you should just max ArP?

Thanks in advance.

Anyone have the damage reduction values from imp. demo shout for various bosses? I've always known imp demo shout is good, but I'd like to see the actual numbers for once.

Clarification: I'd like the value for the extra percentage of damage reduction that the talent offers over the untalented spell. Thanks in advance.

Quick question I am getting over 30% glancing blows and i am at 12% something hit, and at 27 expertise as fury... I have a little bit more hit due to my talents, what is giving me such a high glancing blow rate?
Here is my character armory profile
The World of Warcraft Armory

From your Armory everything seems to be ok there, but i can't tell if you have maxed out your weapon skills?

The axe will be better in most instances 5% crit being greater than 10% ARP from mace spec. But you should try them both in the spreadsheet it maybe dependent on your current gear.

Mace spec is 15% ArP, which is clearly better than 5% crit, but axe spec also gives 5% more crit damage. Which is better does depend on your gear/weapons.

I fail to see how 15% ArP is clearly better than 5% crit.
15% ArP is at best (read: if these are the last 15% to get you to 100% ArP cap) a 7.5% physical damage increase. Now factor in that deep wounds damage is not affected by ArP, and that 1% crit is usually way more than 1% dmg increase (factoring in Deep Wounds damage too) and you get basically a wash right here.

When you consider that axe spex further increases crit damage by 5%, as you correctly notice, it's just no contest. No matter the gear
EDIT: This is assuming both, the axe and mace, are same tier weapons of course.

15% ArP = 184 ArP rating
5% Crit = 228 Crit rating.

Given how average SEP for ArP is 1.1 or so (assuming average ulduar gear and not capped), and crit at 0.85 , 15% ArP is better. But slightly :0

I know that the ratings could be compared on SEP basis, and that this is gear dependant. Point stands that 15% ArP (max 7.5% dmg increase) is certainly not clearly better than 5% crit, no matter how you look at it.

And as for SEP in general. I've got the gut feeling that crit as such is undervalued by the spread sheet approach. I just cannot pinpoint it to the cause. But because "gut feelings" are not an acceptable argument on this board, I'd like to explain a bit, so bear with me.

In the "bottom up approach" of most spreadsheets (and simulators btw) one starts with your stats, knowing exactly how they influence your styles and approximate a realistic combat rotation or priority system (including lag, execution phase, bloodlust periods, triket proc behavior etc). If everything goes right (and I am not saying it does not!), at the end one knows exactly what effect a certain stat point increase would have on the total damage. Once this is done, getting to the concept of a comparable metric (like SEP) is trivial.

Conceptually different to this would be the "top down approach". One starts from the end (lets say an evening full of wipes on Mimiron hard mode), analyses carefully the collected data and extrapolates from there what effect an additional 1% crit/hit/ArP od some given value of STR would have had on the outcome. Again, to do this one has to know exactly how combat mechanics work, how styles correlate to the different stats (e.g. DW does not profit from ArP in any way, but does profit from Crit/STR and to a lesser extent hit/haste).
Keep in mind though that while this approach does have its drawbacks like no clear distinction between boss and corollary adds and being more prone to luck (whereas spreadsheets and to a lesser extent simulators work with exact long term averages) it does have its clear advantages too: no need to approximate your play style, no need do model difficult mechanics like stacking trinkets with skill cooldowns in burn phases, execute phase mechanics, rage model etc. All of this is condensed into the final data where you see how much your average execute has hitted for, what the average execute crit was and what portion of your total damage execute has been.

To do this properly you need some time though. And having some discipline in collecting enough viable data is paramount.
To cut a long story short, I have been doint this occasionally and naively and found based on this data crit to be more valuable in comparison to the spreadsheet results. Crits on average and in total effect (i.e. considering Deep Wounds contribution) do up to 3 times the normal damage of the corresponding hit. As such adjusting the data by 1% more crit would have produced more than 1% extra total damage (as long as effective crit rates are not absurdly high). Similiarly I found STR to be somewhat overvalued. That was based on damage style distribution (white, BT, WW, Slam, DW, HEroic ...) of your total damage, average raid buffed AP (including trinket procs) and factoring in latent AP contribution in form of weapon range and style bonuses. As such the effective AP (read: the virtual total AP that is contributing to all of your total damage) has reached some abnormal values. And STR does add in absolute terms to that, contrary to crit, ArP and the lot which enhance your total damage in a relative way.So there is a dimished effect of STR relative to the other stats when seen in the context of ever growing AP values.

Don't mistake me. I do appreciate spreadsheets and the like. I do use them and I think they are of tremendous help. It's just that I seem to observate some divergent results which I cannot explain when I'm looking on my damage from the other way (top down). In short I do not take spreadsheed results and suggestions for the gospel of truth (and I do not think that the creator wants them to be seen as such).

Thoughts anyone?
I apologize for the lenghty post and the anecdotal vibe. This topic is just somewhat difficult to describe in short terms.