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Haste isn't bad for fury warriors, as it does lead to more rage/white damage, but since haste does nothing for your special attacks, it doesn't provide as much benefit as strength, armor pen, crit, agil or attack power.

Hm. I've been researching this a bit, but I'm still unsure on it. My DPS seems to have dropped in the past couple months, I suppose after last patch, or maybe one before that. Wasn't sure what was causing it, so I've been asking around. I guess part of it was I missed where we don't spam slam! every time it's up anymore, but only during WW/BT cooldown phase. After I started doing that, it's gone back up a bit, but still can't hit what I think I should be doing. I've tried using Landsoul's spreadsheet, which has helped quite a bit. His sheet says I should be doing a bit over 6k, but I usually seem to stay between 4.3-5.3k. Oddly enough, though, using Landsoul's spreadsheet, while using Edge of Ruin/Stormedge, I couldn't get anywhere near what it said I could do, but after dropping back to using Armageddon in my offhand, my DPS went up and I get a lot closer to what it says I should be able to do with that setup. So, I guess what I'm wondering is, does anyone have any advice on improving my performance, whether with tweaking my rotation a bit more, or switching up some gemming? One thing I'm pretty sure on myself already is that I'm in terrible need of weapons upgrades.



EDIT: I fail to see how this post was 'begging for handholding' but whatever.

Kaedalmael: I can think of three reasons:
1) Edge of Ruin & Stormedge are both 3.5 speed, so on very mobile fights you are likely getting them synced up, which results in rage income being very bursty instead of even. Usually this seems to result in rage starving yourself if you are trying to anticipate incoming rage, or else you are wasting a lot of rage because you go from 0 to 100 to 0 every weapon hit.
2) You were used to the extra rage generation of the haste on Armageddon. I always considered haste as not very desired, but when I lost the 2-piece T8 bonus, I noticed my rage generation become a lot more spiky, but when I put on a little bit of haste it got better again. I know it is not the best stat, but personally it seems to smooth out rage generation, especially on mobile fights (and I have 2 identical speed weapons).
3) What enchant do you have on Stormedge? You have 85 AP on Edge of Ruin, and 25 crit/hit on Armageddon. Enchants can make a noticeable impact on dps, and with the price of Abyss Crystals you should really put Berserking on both of the weapons you intend to use.

Thanks. That haste thing makes sense. I had Acc on stormedge too, I believe, because for awhile I actually needed it, but no longer do, so I'll be switching to berserking. I just hadn't gotten around to that yet. But I seem to remember reading on these forums that Berserking/massacre is better than dual berserking?

Dual Berserking is best. Originally when the armor decrease was much larger on Berserking, Massacre was considered better for the offhand, but no more.

5.5k on Anub is terrible considering constant Cleave's + Whirlwind's hitting multiply adds.

I was wondering why its become so common for prot warriors to stack expertise gear up to the hard cap and ignore the hit cap. I understand the lack of hit gear in toc, but it seems inefficient. Since when did gemming and enchanting the highest ilevel gear you could get your hands on with stam and only stam make you a smart tank making the right gear choices?

Do you have a counter-proposal for what a smart tank would do as far as taking lower level item gear and putting something else besides stam on it?

For the warriors who are stacking expertise gear, there's two reasons.
1. That's what's available in the ilvl 245 gear.
2. As far as inefficiency, stacking hit pretty much just helps threat generation, where as the latest research shows stacking expertise actually helps threat AND survivability. See this thread for details. Warrior Avoidance value of Expertise - TankSpot

As far as "when did putting stamina on best gear make you a smart tank?" My response would be that it doesn't necessarily make you smart. But not using the highest ilevel gear and not using stamina enhancements would generally be less smart. I'd recommend using the tanking spreadsheet to get an exact answer. Except in very specific cases (gemming to stay at def cap, +armor, activating meta) stamina will do more towards keeping you alive longer than an equivalent amount of another stat.

Stamina/armor/avoidance stacking became the flavor du jour ever since tricks of the trade and tauntable bosses made threat generation largely irrelevant. If we had an old-style Huhuran or Gluth threat swap, it may change some people's minds about what to use when (or they'd just use a hit/expertise set for that particular fight).

As long as you can get taunt close to spell hit-capped with misery/faerie fire and the glyph, you usually don't need more hit than that for any "threat sensitive" fight. A single trinket or cloak change can get you most of the way there.

That is quite interesting, never thought Expertise was that close to dodge. Well, there is no DR on Expertise so one shouldn't be too surprised.

Related to this, which bosses in end game content have the parry haste effect? Have anyone seen a list of that somewhere?

I did some research as I wasn't able to find a complete list (evidence for the missing bosses. It seems that in t9 contend only Onyxia, The Worms and Icehowl have the parryflag enabled. I am not really afraid of Onyxia but sometimes felt squishy tanking Icehowl. Maybe an other reason why Paladins shine here (+ AD)

How exactly does ArP scale in comparison to STR for fury without Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone? I went fury for a bit to test out some stuff on landsoul's spreadsheet (thanks again for that if you're reading by any chance :P ) and it actually said ArP had under 1 SEP. Does that mean i have to gem STR with fury without either of the trinkets? Or does the ArP SEP actually rise after you've hit a certain value (meaning i should gem as much ArP as possible after hit/exp cap).
Really want to test out fury a bit but i don't want to switch from arms till i get some gear gemmed and stuff
Thanks in advance for any answers and such.

I think what you're asking is when do I stop gemming for str and gem for pure Arp assuming I don't have a Mjolnnir or a Grim Toll?

Typically I use the "stat modification" box a little further down in the spreadsheet (cells U23:U31) to quickly see if I should be regemming from Str to Arp, it's faster than actually changing each gem individually and/or using the SEP macro after changing each gem individually.

Since armor pen doesn't scale in a linear fashion and it's highly dependent on all your other stats, it's kind of hard to give a one-size fits all answer. Playing around with the spreadsheet should get you 90% of the way there.

Well the spreadsheet said ArP SEP is under 1 when i changed to fury. The real question is does ArP SEP grow the more you have (without any arp trinket) - meaning that i should stack it regardless, or do i just gem for STR like the sheet says till ArP SEP is above 1?

Yes, Arp gains effectiveness the more of it you have, all the way up to the cap (whether you have a proc trinket or not). That doesn't mean it's a net dps gain to change all of your gems from str to arp. Depending on your other stats, it will vary as to when arp is better incrementally than str point for point.

Your question is answered by the spreadsheet if you do what I said. If you're gemming for 240 str, you put a -240 in the strength adjustments and a +240 in the arp adjustment columns. It's very easy to determine which is more dps just by looking at the total dps before and after the adjustment.

With race change going live today, how much of an overall DPS increase will changing from a taruen to an orc or troll be? Is there a huge difference or minimal?

Depends on your crit rate, armor pen, haste, expertise, etc. If you want an accurate answer, the spreadsheet has a dropdown menu for race. Before you spend the money to change it, I'd suggest using that first.

For my gear, Orc is worth 28 dps, troll is worth about 50. Orc is worth more if you're using axes and not already expertise capped from gear (I'm capped and still using swords so it doesn't matter for me).

I don't fully understand the combat mechanics behind Retaliation. The tooltip says that you "counterattack," but I'd like to know exactly what that means. Does "counterattack" mean that every time you get hit (from the front) you hit back? Do still you take the incoming damage? So: what happens when an enemy melees a warrior that has the Retaliation buff?

How do arms warriors max their DPS in AOE situations? For example, when you're in the middle of a gazillion whelps on Onyxia, what are you thinking and what are you doing? When do you alter your rotation to increase DPS when there are AOE opportunities as arms? 3 or 4 mobs?

I have a badly undergeared warrior that I was going to start gearing up by sneaking in to some of our alt raids. I've never PVE'd with her, so I am pretty clueless but I've started reading about arms rotations/priorities, gemming, etc. My main goal with her is to PVP, so I'll probably have 2 arms specs, 1 pve and 1 pvp. Just looking for some tips for arms PVE AOE.

Specifically for Onyxia whelps, I use Thunder Clap every cooldown.

So, running a 55/8/8 "incite" build, its TC, SS, BS, TC, whatever, TC.

It depends on how proactive the other dps are, but I can get a good two 50-70k hits in with TC, the last one is usually around 10-20k. All depends on how fast the whelps die.

Have'nt found any detailed infos here and at wowwiki. Any tips where an exact definition of ranges and angels for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (if glyphed) cleave targets can be found? Or anybody here who can report on that? Currently I assume range is melee range, too.

tia boogi