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Old 09/16/09, 1:56 AM   #1246
phasedrake
Glass Joe
 
phasedrake's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Thrall
trying to find some stat caps

I have been trying to find some stat caps for warriors, and I have found some of what I have needed (defense for tanks, hit caps (263 PvE, 164 PvP, 361 duel wield) expertise (214) and resiliance (which I believe is 1464)... but no where seems to mention the stat caps for strength, agility, dodge/perry, and attack power.... if there is a cap for them anyway.

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Old 09/16/09, 6:18 AM   #1247
Gruntle
King Hippo
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
It's not that simple. The caps for hit you write are all hard caps. This means that having more rating than that will not contribute at all to your dps/tps. For most of the rating stats the caps are soft, meaning that the rating loses in value as you go above it, but still contribute. Stat for stat:

Hit
For non-dual wielding the hard cap is at 263 vs bosses (lvl 83 mobs), 164 vs equal lvl mobs/players. Modify this value if you have other sources giving hit (talent, dranei aura, food). 1 % hit gained from another source equals 32.79 (rounded from Whitehoofs post in the class mechanics subforum) hit rating.

For dual wielding the soft cap is 263 (however, as a DW warrior you should have the Precision talent bringing it down to 164). At that value none of your yellow attacks will miss any longer. This is the absolute minimum of hit you should have. You can go a bit higher, but hit loses about 40-60% in value when above the softcap so beware.

Expertise
For tanking Expertise has a softcap at 214, where none of your swings will be dodged. However, as a dps/tps stat (and mitigation if the boss gets hasted on parries), Expertise still has some value beyond 214.

For DW fury, Expertise has a hard cap at 214, if you assume that all your dps will be done from behind (where the mobs cannot parry). If you're in fights where this is hard to do, extra Expertise might actually help out a bit (making 214 a soft cap). But for almost all cases you can treat this as a hard cap.

For Arms, the cap is at 214, but can be reduced by talents (with Strength of arms the cap is 182, with Strength of arms+Weapon Mastery the cap is 116). It is a tricky stat for arms though, you should probably not aim towards capping it at the expense of other stats. For more info check the spreadsheet thread.

Defense
Has a soft cap at 689 rating (540 skill). This is where the chance of a boss mob critting on you is zero. It still gives avoidance also after 689 (although less efficiently than dodge/parry).

Resilience
Here I'm not 100% certain, but from what I could find Resilience has a softcap at 33% (i.e. maximum 33% overall damage reduction can be obtained from resilience, but crit reduction can be stacked further). Using the updated rating conversions for 3.2, I arrive at a softcap of 3111. Good luck on reaching that

Dodge
Dodge rating suffers from diminishing returns, which essentially means that dodge rating become less valuable the more dodge you have (for details check Whitehoof's post in the class mechanics subforum).

Parry
Also has diminishing returns, but it starts at a lower value than dodge. This makes parry a little bit worse than dodge point per point (since they now have the same rating conversion) for pure mitigation but does of course add some extra dps/tps through parry haste.

Agility
For agility->dodge, suffers from diminishing returns as above. For agi->crit, no cap (well, 100% crit is a definite cap) exists. Agility also gives some armor. For pure mitigation dodge>agi, but if you care about threat/dps, agi can be better than dodge point per point.

Crit
Crit has no simple cap, but there is a still a cap for it (which until 3.2 was more of a theoretical value since you could in principle not reach it). This cap exists due to how the hit table works. For white hits this cap is:
critcap = 100-24-(27-hit%)-(6.5-exp%),
where 24 is from glancing blows and the hit%/exp% terms cannot go below 0.
Example, with 10% hit and exp capped the critcap for white attacks is: 100-24-17=59%

For yellow attacks the glancing blow term disappears. Also, it is possible that yellow attacks are on a two-roll system (as far as I know no one has really been able to pinpoint that mechanic yet), making the cap 100% for crits.

ArP
The effect of Sunders+FF take the boss mob armor down by 25% before all calculations. Additionally there is a cap to how much armor can be reduced based on the armor remaining after these debuffs (see blue post by Ghostcrawler from a while back). Thus ArP from gear and talents only affects a fraction (depending on debuffs) of the total boss armor. These values are after the 3.2.2 nerf of ArP.
ArP needed from gear/trinkets (food/pots):
Fury
No trinkets: 1400
Softcap with Mjolnir: 735
Softcap with Grim Toll: 788

Arms
in battle stance (BSt): 1260 (90%)
BSt+T92p: 1176 (84%)
BSt+Mace: 1050 (75%)
BSt+Mace+T92p: 966 (69%)
Using Mjolnir gives softcaps which are 665 ArP rating lower,
Grim toll 612 rating lower.

Thanks for the input Gristle! An easy way of checking ArP and what you will get out can be found at Simple ArPen calculator

Strength and AP have no caps at all, you will continue to gain dps/tps however much you stack.

edit: clarified arms expertise cap

Last edited by Gruntle : 10/15/09 at 3:46 AM.

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Old 09/16/09, 7:00 AM   #1248
Gristle
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Gruntle View Post

ArP
haven't really looked at the current caps for ArP, but it is a bit complicated since there are a lot of talents/buffs/debuffs that affect it. I could try and edit this post later.
For Fury in 3.2.2 (rounded up):

Hard cap from gear = 1400 ArPen
Softcap with Mjolnir = 735 ArPen
Softcap with Grim Toll = 788 ArPen

These are the numbers I am working with anyway, based on the figures reported in this post. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm off the mark.

My 2nd spec is Prot for 10m hm's, so I don't really touch Arms. There are indeed a few permutations based on weapon used/whether you have 4T9 etc.

Last edited by Gristle : 09/16/09 at 10:19 AM.

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Old 09/16/09, 5:53 PM   #1249
Thorgrim
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by vdanee View Post
i've been reading this thread and let me know if i got this right:
devastate does not give additional threat when applies the sunder effect... but still no tanks would start putting the normal sunder armor on the target until 5 stacks are on... is that right? i guess its just waste of time / rage
but how is that when i'm watching omen, 5 devastate hits generate at least 40-50% more threat than 5 sunder armor hits?
If I'm understanding the question right, the reason is that devastate does damage, which of course causes threat. The inherent threat of a sunder, even with the minor AP scaling it has, isn't anywhere near the threat devastate does just by raw damage these days. The inherent threat of sunder is something like 350. Devastate hits much, much harder than that now.

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Old 09/17/09, 7:40 AM   #1250
Coeus
Von Kaiser
 
Coeus's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by vdanee View Post
i've been reading this thread and let me know if i got this right:
devastate does not give additional threat when applies the sunder effect... but still no tanks would start putting the normal sunder armor on the target until 5 stacks are on... is that right? i guess its just waste of time / rage
but how is that when i'm watching omen, 5 devastate hits generate at least 40-50% more threat than 5 sunder armor hits?
To put some numbers out there to help, Sunder does (345 + 5%*AP) threat per application. Devastate does (damage + 315 + 5%*AP) threat. Glyphed, it appears Devastate now does (damage + 2*(315+5%*AP)) threat. So, assuming you're doing at least 31 damage with Devastate, it is always more threat per application than straight Sunder.

Numbers come from research in these 2 threads:
Warrior WoW 3.0 Threat Values - TankSpot
Warrior Glyphed Devastate Threat; napkin math - TankSpot

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Old 09/19/09, 11:51 AM   #1251
Naarkrom
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warrior
 
Confrerie du Thorium (EU)
Vigilance and soul shatter?

Hi guys,

I have a single question about the aggro gain(and maybe loss) with a vigilance on a demo who cast soul shatter.
We were fighting Koralon and the demo of the raid with the vigilance cast his soul shatter : result>Loss of aggro from the main tank and 2 dps passed above him.
We tested it with an elite, but with no similar results.
For the war prot ,Is the aggro gain from the demo divided by 2 when he cast soulshatter?

thanks by advance

Naar'

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Old 09/21/09, 9:11 PM   #1252
Tengarez
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Kel'Thuzad
I am trying to make a block value set, and I am being told there is a cap to how much works with shield bash. How much block value maxes out the damage for shield slam?

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Old 09/22/09, 2:36 AM   #1253
Scyne
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warlock
 
Stormreaver (EU)
Diminishing returns occur once block value exceeds 30 times the player's level and caps the maximum damage benefit from shield block value at 34.5 times the player's level.

So diminishing returns start at 2400 block value and caps out at 2760 at level 80.

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Old 09/22/09, 3:41 AM   #1254
Gruntle
King Hippo
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Scyne View Post
Diminishing returns occur once block value exceeds 30 times the player's level and caps the maximum damage benefit from shield block value at 34.5 times the player's level.

So diminishing returns start at 2400 block value and caps out at 2760 at level 80.
Your reply doesn't really answer his question. Yes, DR begins for block value at 2400, but whether this includes BV from strength/BV from trinket/BV modifiers from talents/meta gem is as far as I know not known (would be very happy if someone have a link to solid tests of this, there were some tests made on tankspot, but they don't seem very conclusive to me).

Also the answer to the question "How much block value maxes out the damage for shield slam?" is not known currently, we don't know at what undiminished BV you get a "maximum damage benefit" of 2760.

To Tengarez, you're probably best of testing it out yourself.

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Old 09/22/09, 4:35 AM   #1255
suicuique
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by Gruntle View Post
Your reply doesn't really answer his question. Yes, DR begins for block value at 2400, but whether this includes BV from strength/BV from trinket/BV modifiers from talents/meta gem is as far as I know not known (would be very happy if someone have a link to solid tests of this, there were some tests made on tankspot, but they don't seem very conclusive to me).
For what it's worth, I did some tests on dummys with block gear value ranging from 2500 to 3300. Here are my anecdotal findings (I do not have the collected data at hand):

1) Shield Slam peaked when reaching the block cap. Adding further STR items did not increase shield slam.

2) The 10% block value increase from the blocking glyph is counted into the cap. read: it suffices to have such block value that with the blocking glyph buff (10% additional block value) you reach the block cap to peak out shield slams.

3) activating shield block increases shield slams beyond block value cap. read: you get the highest shield slams at block value cap (pre shield block, but post blocking glyph) and shield block active. Therefore shield block skill remains usefull at all times.

4) activating shield block trinkets had no effect when already at block value cap

Neither did I test meta gems explicitely, nor did I test withouth shield block talents.

P.S shield slam enhancing boni like the def T7 2piece are not affected by block value cap. Which should be intuitive but still noteworthy.

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Old 09/22/09, 5:45 PM   #1256
Healranktwo
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Windrunner
Did the patch lower the amount of crit you get from agi or something? I logged in today to find out that I lost .26% crit. The spreadsheet agrees with me too, so i'm curious how I lost that crit. I did not change any gems or gear.

Checked with a couple of melee in the guild, and they lost some crit too.

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Old 09/22/09, 6:03 PM   #1257
Otori
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Azralon
It is a possibility, as Blizz has shown concern with the huge crit rating players have currently, and even made fun about a "Sunwell Aura" of crit.

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Old 09/23/09, 9:56 AM   #1258
Moophisto
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Warrior
 
Turalyon
Slow weapons vs. Fast Weapons for tanks: Its long been established that faster weapons are of course better in most cases for a warrior tank as it allows for more heroic strikes. However, since 3.2 I've been considering if the buff to devastate would change that, and now that Quel'Serrar is available while I'm still stuck with a Titanguard, I'm wondering what the general thoughts/findings on higher devastates at the expense of heroic strikes are.

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Old 09/24/09, 1:52 AM   #1259
LunarWolfspirit
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Dath'Remar
Pot / Cooldown Management for Arms Warrior

There was a brief discussion on this topic slightly earlier, but ended rather inconclusively. What I'd like to know is:
(i) Firstly, which is the strongest DPS pot?
(ii) Which combination of DPS pot and cooldowns (Shattering Throw, Bladestorm, Recklessness) would provide the best overall DPS and best synergy?
(iii) During Heroism, which combination would reap bonus benefits? i.e. Wild Magic + Bladestorm?

[Indestructible Potion]
I'm not clear about the potion's SEP vs. the other 2, but I'm pretty certain that it wouldn't produce any stacking benefits than it normally would.

[Potion of Wild Magic]
I currently use this at the moment. I usually pop Shattering Throw, then this pot and bladestorm together.

[Potion of Speed]
As far as I know, haste is a really bad stat for Arms so ever since moving from Fury I have retired this pot.

[Insane Strength Potion]
A little unorthodox considering it is a BC potion, does it beat Wild Magic and/or Indestructible Potion?

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Old 09/24/09, 2:19 AM   #1260
BWarner
Piston Honda
 
BWarner's Avatar
 
Human Warrior
 
Uldum
Originally Posted by LunarWolfspirit View Post
There was a brief discussion on this topic slightly earlier, but ended rather inconclusively. What I'd like to know is:
(i) Firstly, which is the strongest DPS pot?
(ii) Which combination of DPS pot and cooldowns (Shattering Throw, Bladestorm, Recklessness) would provide the best overall DPS and best synergy?
(iii) During Heroism, which combination would reap bonus benefits? i.e. Wild Magic + Bladestorm?

[Indestructible Potion]
I'm not clear about the potion's SEP vs. the other 2, but I'm pretty certain that it wouldn't produce any stacking benefits than it normally would.

[Potion of Wild Magic]
I currently use this at the moment. I usually pop Shattering Throw, then this pot and bladestorm together.

[Potion of Speed]
As far as I know, haste is a really bad stat for Arms so ever since moving from Fury I have retired this pot.

[Insane Strength Potion]
A little unorthodox considering it is a BC potion, does it beat Wild Magic and/or Indestructible Potion?
I covered the relative benefit of these four potions here: AeroWow | The Well-Buffed Warrior

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