Protection Gear Quick Reference - Page 5

Hyperial · 01/18/09, 3:14 PM

Could you apply a quik reference for best possible profession choices for a prot warrior?

• Jamor · 01/19/09, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by Rustyboy

I too was surprised to see the wall of the dead with 226 ilevel. I would say in most cases Barricade of Eternity > Wall of the Dead. The strength is really the only thing on this shield that makes it somewhat usefull.

Yeah, I agree -- I absolutely rate Barricade as best in slot. I only use wall because I haven't seen a Barricade on my warrior yet. I have actually been using the Crest of Loderan (sp), in place of the Wall recently as the extra stam and hit seem nicer for the most post

◊ vorpalblade · 02/03/09, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Branar

For whatever reason, items with block rating often have less stam - possibly a misguided effort to make warriors 'pay' for becoming unhittable (I would think the lost avoidance/other stats would be an adequate penalty, but maybe I'm wrong).

Wall of Terror is of course particularly bad, but I think it's a more generalized problem. Block rating is nice in some situations, but when you're talking about sacrificing 20+ stam (in some cases much more - the boots and belt being particularly good examples) in many slots to get it, the number of situations where it's actually worth it dwindles rather sharply.

Ok, I did the math over in the Item Level Mechanics thread, but it's particularly relevant here.

It appears that what you theorized is correct, block rating is weighted particularly heavily in the item budget (DOUBLE what it was thought to be). Assuming this is intentional and they actually meant for block rating to be worth double what it's value had been assumed to be, then all these items with block rating are actually properly itemized; You just pay out the nose for block rating.

Ynox · 02/03/09, 2:34 PM

Block Rating is not a bad stat, it is just situational.

Fast low hitting Boss -> 100% dodge/parry/miss/block is super strong. You cut 1300-2600 Dmg off a 7k hit. And you will do it always. Its worth 18-36% Mitigation. -> you can loose around 25% of max life and stay at the same Time to Live. (Hitting Shield Block is worth much more, because you also go for high Block Value.) In addition you could maybe have less defense than cap, but i have to verify this in a duel. Perfect example is Loatheb and i know he is easy, but you could do him without a real healer with this gear in 10 man version.

But for slow hard hitting Bosses its worth a lot less. Lets say 19k Hits on Well geared Plate (you can take 2 Hits then you are at 5% Life in stamina oriented Gear).
For this Boss you need HP and Armor to survive 2 Hits and Expertise that you dont take 3 Hits in the time you normaly get 2 if he has Parryhaste. Patchwerk as Hateful tank has almost the same requirements, but here you need more HP than all melee dps after 1 Hit, and you need enough armor to take another one.

For the Second Boss Feraldruids are the better tanks, because they get higher buffed HP and higher Armor, DK will also be strong with Boneshield having a good uptime. But for the First Boss Warriors are the Best ones.

In Gear 1 you sacrifice around 6k Life but you block everything, Gear 2 you get harder Hits but you got around 40-42k life.

But in both Gears you take around 2800 Dps in from Patchwerk Heroic, but for Time to Live the 2nd Gear is far better.
On Patchwerk nonheroic (hits faster, but lower) the first Gear will be a lot stronger.

As long as Blizzard does not implement dimishing returns on Block Rating it will have its place.

The Red Menace · 02/05/09, 5:25 PM

A little bit of block rating really can be more than beneficial in taking the top off some of those hard hitting bosses. A lot of the discussion makes the assumption that bosses hit either hard and slow, or soft and fast. Definitely there are some bosses like that, but generally boss attack speed is a bell curve with most bosses clustered in a tight range. The force of the hits is tuned on a boss-by-boss basis, but attack speed not so much. As a result, block rating will consistently reduce your incoming damage by a certain fixed amount.

I'm sort of surprised that warriors place such a high value on stamina. As a class that enjoys a very balanced profile of tanking mechanics as opposed to one of the more specialized tanks, I think a warrior would be very happy with a shield that, compared to Barricade, has just slightly better avoidance, higher mitigation in the form of armor and block rating/value, and as a result a bit more threat as well.

This looks to me like the more well rounded of the two shields, well suited to the most rounded of tank classes.

Jayde · 02/06/09, 8:01 AM

Wall of Terror isn't just about the block increase, though. It's about the additional 168 armor you get from it.

Block isn't 'useless', it does add up. It may not be optimal, but it does contribute to a fairly consistant reduction in incoming DPS.

Armor is often undersold and has a pretty large impact on how base damage gets filtered through the impact of avoidance and block... thus, from my numbers that I've ran, makes the Wall of Terror a viable item.

I did a bit more of an analysis of that over on TankSpot on the topic of Wall of Terror vs. other shields. It's certainly not as bad as people make it out to be, even given its non-optimal design.

I have access to all the high-end shields and personally prefer the Wall of Terror, primarily due to the armor and due to the fact that it doesn't have the low defense rating of Hero's Surrender.

Imba · 02/08/09, 9:01 PM

Just a quick note. Not sure if anyone mentioned, but sapph -> malygos quest necks are a level higher in normal and heroic, which are 213 and 226 respectively.

Twoflower · 02/17/09, 11:03 AM

I didnt find a Glyph discussion in any of the other threads. Even though they dont fall into the catrgory of gear, i think it would be worth to add it here.

Cortabre · 02/19/09, 6:33 AM

Originally Posted by Twoflower

I didnt find a Glyph discussion in any of the other threads. Even though they dont fall into the catrgory of gear, i think it would be worth to add it here.

That's probably because there's not anything to discuss. Blocking, Revenge, Heroic Strike are about the only things useful. Cleave I guess would be nice instead of Heroic Strike if you're an OT and end up tanking alot of trash. Minors are mostly personal preference as they don't do much. Battle, Bloodrage, TClap are the ones I chose and it seems pretty common.

Most of the other glyphs just don't provide any benefit at all.

kahalm · 02/19/09, 7:55 AM

Due to my bad luck I'm still dreaming for a free slot for the Taunt-Glyph, my taunt seems to miss more often if it is really important....
(we use a taunt kite strategy onAnub'Rekhan and 4 Horseman isn't that fun with taunt resists and Kel after his aggrowipe)

Twoflower · 02/19/09, 9:21 AM

Originally Posted by Cortabre

That's probably because there's not anything to discuss. Blocking, Revenge, Heroic Strike are about the only things useful. Cleave I guess would be nice instead of Heroic Strike if you're an OT and end up tanking alot of trash. Minors are mostly personal preference as they don't do much. Battle, Bloodrage, TClap are the ones I chose and it seems pretty common.

Most of the other glyphs just don't provide any benefit at all.

I cannot agree with this.

The heroic strike glyph ( rage when you crit ) is pretty much useless imo, since i have yet to get into any rage problems. Specialy with glyph of revenge, which gives you the next HS for no rage costs.

Then there are the devastate, taunt and the sunder armor glyphs, which sound interesting. And of course the fabolous cleave glyph.

I think it aint that clear as you make it seem.

Ikswosil · 02/19/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Cortabre

That's probably because there's not anything to discuss. Blocking, Revenge, Heroic Strike are about the only things useful. Cleave I guess would be nice instead of Heroic Strike if you're an OT and end up tanking alot of trash. Minors are mostly personal preference as they don't do much. Battle, Bloodrage, TClap are the ones I chose and it seems pretty common.

Most of the other glyphs just don't provide any benefit at all.

You fail to mention the Minor Glyph of Charge which is more useful than Glyph of Bloodrage as well.

Riot · 02/19/09, 4:30 PM

I prefer Last Stand, Resonating Power, and Heroic Strike.

Go figure?

I'll probably swap RP -> to Blocking when Ulduar comes out. I've had RP up for add tanking on Sarth.

JamesVZ · 02/19/09, 4:59 PM

Last Stand? Really? I was thinking about that one, but decided there aren't enough >2 minute fights where I'd actually use it twice. I've got Blocking/Taunt/Cleaving, but may change Cleaving to Devastate. Two sunders at a time is pretty hot, and the few times I've used it I really liked it. Taunt seems about damn required for me, I *always* get my taunts resisted at all the wrong times.

Riot · 02/19/09, 5:37 PM

Yeah, I definitely like it. I run around with 7% hit, so no Taunt for me.

Rustyboy · 02/19/09, 6:03 PM

The heroic strike glyph ( rage when you crit ) is pretty much useless imo, since i have yet to get into any rage problems

Then you may not heroic striking enough and hence you could be pushing out more threat that you are at the moment. ** EDITED **

[Glyph of Blocking] - Must have, useful in all situations.

[Glyph of Revenge] - Optional : Highly Recommended, allows you to Heroic Strike in low rage situations and replaces a high miss white attack with a low parry yellow attack for free.

[Glyph of Devastate] - Optional : However really good for initial aggro/dps and has some prot pvp uses, unfortunately it suffers from Devastates drop in value at the moment.

[Glyph of Last Stand] - Situational : There are very few fights where this would be useful. Maybe Drake/Add tanking on S+3D. By the time you go from one boss to another the normal CD would have reset anyway.

[Glyph of Taunt] - Better choices available : I rarely get resisted and even then its never in a do or die situation. This could change in Ulduar though.

[Glyph of Resonating Power] - Situational : AoE tanking glyph, probably more of a 5 man glyph. I suppose if your always going to be the OT you might choose this one but even then there are better choices considering TC's CD is more of a limitation than rage cost. Although I can see why you would use it for S+3D adds.

[Glyph of Rapid Charge] - Primarily for PvP

[Glyph of Barbaric Insults] - Situational : Not worth a major slot imo. If your having issues with taunt being on CD you can put vigilance on the guy that's getting hit a lot (ie another tank) and you can get almost unlimited taunts which is really good for add tanking on S+3D.

[Glyph of Cleaving] - Situational : AoE tanking glyph, totally useless on all boss encounters unless your on adds.

[Glyph of Heroic Strike] - Optional : Highly Recommended, It helps maintain rage when your HS spamming and it can help push out more threat in situations where you don't have infinite rage. That free Heroic strike that I got from the Revenge Glyph can actually give you 10 rage. When you heroic strike you generate no rage from the hit, so any extra rage from heroic strike is good. My heroic strike crits 30% of the time and on a full naxx clear I heroic strike just as much as I devastate but heroic strike does 30% more damage = more threat even if you account for the extra innate threat on devastate. In order to maximise threat you need to replace as many auto attacks with heroic strike as possible. 1 Heroic strike will on average generate the same amount of threat of ~2 auto attacks minumum and if its crits it jumps up to the same amount of threat of 3-4 auto attacks.

[Glyph of Sunder Armor] - Situational : Very nice glyph for add tanking and 5 mans, for bosses its useless which is why I don't use it.

It is important to make sure your choice of Glyphs are based on what your doing, my choice is Blocking, Revenge and Heroic Strike although I did really like Devastate when I was using it. I'm tanking bosses all the time and I don't have issues in 5 mans or on trash. If your new to tanking, always the OT or starting 5 man heroic farming things like Cleave, Sunder, Devastate would be useful.

◊ vorpalblade · 02/19/09, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rustyboy

Then your not heroic striking enough and hence you could be pushing out more threat that you are at the moment. The best thing about this glyph is that its useful all the time.

[Glyph of Heroic Strike] - Optional : Highly Recommended, It helps maintain rage when your HS spamming and it can help push out more threat in situations where you don't have infinite rage. That free Heroic strike that I got from the Revenge Glyph can actually give you 10 rage. When you heroic strike you generate no rage from the hit, so any extra rage from heroic strike is good. My heroic strike crits 30% of the time and on a full naxx clear I heroic strike just as much as I devastate but heroic strike does 30% more damage = more threat even if you account for the extra innate threat on devastate. In order to maximise threat you need to replace as many auto attacks with heroic strike as possible. 1 Heroic strike will on average generate the same amount of threat of ~2 auto attacks minumum and if its crits it jumps up to the same amount of threat of 3-4 auto attacks.

You're not wrong, certainly.. it can have the advantages you listed. The thing I don't like about it compared to the other choices for the third Major Glyph slot (Blocking and Revenge being the no brainers) is that it scales in the wrong direction.

With the glyph, you're getting the most rage back when you're heroic striking every attack, but that necessarily implies an already high rage situation. At the times when you need it the MOST (any low rage situation), you get the least return. Now, the argument can be made that in a low rage situation, ANY rage returned is advantageous, and that's a fair argument.. but for a major glyph slot I tend to prefer a glyph which will provide more consistent/reliable performance than one which scales with the inverse of its desirability, since it procs the least when you need it the most, and vice-versa. (For what it's worth, I usually switch back and forth between Cleaving and Devastate for that 3rd slot).

That said, it's misleading to make the assumption that you did, namely that someone isn't "heroic striking enough" if they're in a high rage situation. Since there are indeed infinite rage scenarios, there will necessarily be times that you literally can't dump rage fast enough, and the returns from the HS glyph will have little to no usable effect. That doesn't make it useless, but it's a matter of preference.

Branar · 02/20/09, 12:40 AM

(Blocking and Revenge being the no brainers)

I actually find that Revenge suffers from the same issues that you outline for him on the Heroic Strike glyph.

In low-rage situations I hardly ever take advantage of the 'free' heroic strike, because the 'free' heroic strike still costs me 6-9 rage that the white damage swing would have generated, and the threat a heroic strike would generate is a heck of a lot less than the threat a Shield Slam, Shockwave, or Concussion Blow could generate.

And, as you say, in high-rage situations, the 'free' heroic strike isn't really getting you much anyway.

I typically go with Blocking, Devastate, and Cleaving. If they ever add a second glyph that improves mitigation or survivability (Glyph of Last Stand, alas, does not count in my book) I'll probably swap between Devastate and Cleaving the way you do.

Rustyboy · 02/20/09, 3:58 AM

In low-rage situations I hardly ever take advantage of the 'free' heroic strike, because the 'free' heroic strike still costs me 6-9 rage that the white damage swing would have generated, and the threat a heroic strike would generate is a heck of a lot less than the threat a Shield Slam, Shockwave, or Concussion Blow could generate.

HS does not replace SS, SW, CB or activate a GCD. It only replaces white hits and even though you gain some rage with white hits you are a tank and should be getting some more rage pretty quickly. If your free HS crits that 10 rage can also be used to hit that next SS as well and you have just pushed out more threat over the same period of time.

With the glyph, you're getting the most rage back when you're heroic striking every attack, but that necessarily implies an already high rage situation. At the times when you need it the MOST (any low rage situation), you get the least return. Now, the argument can be made that in a low rage situation, ANY rage returned is advantageous, and that's a fair argument.. but for a major glyph slot I tend to prefer a glyph which will provide more consistent/reliable performance than one which scales with the inverse of its desirability, since it procs the least when you need it the most, and vice-versa. (For what it's worth, I usually switch back and forth between Cleaving and Devastate for that 3rd slot).

Actually you would probably get more value from the Devastate glyph on bosses which provide infinite rage. The HS glyph is decent at the start of encounters due to the REV glyph and can really excel on encounters where rage is bouncing between 30-90. Cleave is purely a 5man/10man/25man trash glyph and I can't feel that hitting one more target with an ability which is now getting its damage split into 3 instead of 2 as being "more consistent/reliable performance" when its use is so low in the first place. Over a whole night of raiding you would HS about 7 times more than cleave.

Branar · 02/20/09, 9:33 AM

I can't feel that hitting one more target with an ability which is now getting its damage split into 3 instead of 2

It makes cleave deal 50% more damage, and, therefore, 50% more threat from Cleave on most trash packs. That doesn't seem bad to me.

Over a whole night of raiding you would HS about 7 times more than cleave.

That's not the point, though. How many of those 7x-as-often Heroic Strikes are you getting from the rage savings on your Glyph of Heroic Strike, and how many of them would you get anyway?

Assuming you're fighting 3 targets and not 2 a reasonable amount of the time when you're using Cleave, Glyph of Cleaving is responsible for up to 1/3 of your Cleave damage. That's a pretty big increase even for a less used ability; on my last Naxx clear I did ~7% of my total damage from Cleave.

◊ vorpalblade · 02/20/09, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Rustyboy

HS does not replace SS, SW, CB or activate a GCD. It only replaces white hits and even though you gain some rage with white hits you are a tank and should be getting some more rage pretty quickly. If your free HS crits that 10 rage can also be used to hit that next SS as well and you have just pushed out more threat over the same period of time.

Actually you would probably get more value from the Devastate glyph on bosses which provide infinite rage. The HS glyph is decent at the start of encounters due to the REV glyph and can really excel on encounters where rage is bouncing between 30-90. Cleave is purely a 5man/10man/25man trash glyph and I can't feel that hitting one more target with an ability which is now getting its damage split into 3 instead of 2 as being "more consistent/reliable performance" when its use is so low in the first place. Over a whole night of raiding you would HS about 7 times more than cleave.

Yup, I like the Devastate glyph for single target and use it pretty frequently, but since at the moment single target threat hasn't been an issue, glyphing for improved AoE threat makes the most sense for me. The Cleave glyph is certainly well suited only to those times when you're tanking 3+ targets, but it does NOT work like a Saber Lash, it does full damage to each cleave target rather than splitting a pool of damage between targets. Of course, the only fight where this glyph distinction is even applicable is 3 Drakes, where warriors are often either Whelp/Ele tanking or drake tanking (I'm generally on Whelps/Elems) and an extra Cleave target isn't a bad thing to have.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you advocating the HS glyph, it's just a matter of preference for which there are pro's and con's. I don't use it because I feel it scales improperly for a major glyph compared to the other choices.

Jrk · 02/24/09, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by vorpalblade

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you advocating the HS glyph, it's just a matter of preference for which there are pro's and con's. I don't use it because I feel it scales improperly for a major glyph compared to the other choices.

I use neither the HS nor the revenge gylph at the moment(pvp), but had played with both for a while. If your crit is under 15% after raid buffs (assuming incite was not specced), HS is not giving out nearly as much rage as you would hope for. Now there is the supposed 'rage starved situation' where these glyphs are meant to be a godsend. In the starved situation revenge glyph > HS.. Your best bet is to not put yourself into a position to be starved in the first place (tgiblock).

Someone mentioned earlier that it is all based on where you are and what your role in the raid is, and you are right. If you're mainly a main tank where higher avoidance is called for, putting you in a position to dodge/parry/miss 6 times in a row, revenge would be your best bet. If you are a diehard offtank (so hard to find these days..everyone wants to be the big bopper..) and are aiming for the most aoe threat you can, you may try a Resonating Power/Cleaving/Blocking/Thunderclap glyph combo while speccing into Imp Cleave/TC as well as Incite & Damage Shield. It is all what you want your focus to be in any given situation. My focus (tankwise) is to be flexible and versatile; having a standard spec/glyphing that is applicable on hard/soft bosses & trash, bringing extra gear for itemization to weigh out what I will need for the individual fight. Not that I'm perfect, far from it..

fade2green514 · 03/07/09, 12:51 AM

just wondering, what is your opinion on a cloak enchant? i currently have 16 defense but was debating on going with 225 armor or 22 agility. any input?

Cortabre · 03/08/09, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by fade2green514

just wondering, what is your opinion on a cloak enchant? i currently have 16 defense but was debating on going with 225 armor or 22 agility. any input?

I use defense as well, just in case I decide to switch out a few defenseless or low defense items for higher stam or higher threat items. I use it as more of a buffer really, and in terms of avoidance is strictly better than 22 agi by a significant margin. I definitely use agility on my threat set, however.

A question I had was about assembling a block set: assuming I can get to the defense cap using a block set (easily done) what provides more bang for my buck? Defense for that small amount more block, or would armor actually edge it out to reduce the size of the unblockable portion of a hit (assuming of course you are tanking something you are not able to fully block - if you can fully block a hit already, go for the defense). My intuition tells me armor would probably be better, but I certainly have not done any math to back that up. I may be back with some napkin math in the near future!

Vysogota · 03/21/09, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by vorpalblade

EDIT: Checked on the PTR, and Wall of Terror still has the same stats.

Not anymore - it finally got buffed from 63 to 94 Stamina on recent PTR (Inexorable Sabatons got buffed as well).