Warrior DPS Calculation Spreadsheet - Page 136

landsoul · 11/20/09, 11:00 AM

I'm finding that with Really amazing icecrown gear and caps (particularly crit cap) are reached, that the 10 STR 10 Haste gems will be better than 10 STR 10 Crit. And thanks!

I'll have to find some way to fit the heroic version of it in a PvP set and/or PvE set. It might take some figuring due to the sheer amount of hit it has.

Deus_Phasmatis · 11/20/09, 5:35 PM

Congratulations, Landsoul.

Edit: mindless none-sense.

rebrebreb · 11/21/09, 8:50 PM

Just picked up Grim toll yesterday and I'm sitting on 42% passive arpen which is about 16% too low? Anyway I chucked some arpen gems in the spreadsheet to make up for this and noticed a significant dps loss over strength/strength crit gems... am i doing it wrong?

:edit: grats landsoul by the way, keep up the good work <3

MikHaven · 11/22/09, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by rebrebreb

Just picked up Grim toll yesterday and I'm sitting on 42% passive arpen which is about 16% too low? Anyway I chucked some arpen gems in the spreadsheet to make up for this and noticed a significant dps loss over strength/strength crit gems... am i doing it wrong?

I am not sure exactly what your referring to for reasons pointed out later, but a couple things of significent note:

First we need to set the context for arms/or fury. Since your currently stuck in arms, I'll talk about this, as the numbers make more sense in that context. I am also not sure if you are referring to pvp or pve. But I'll focus on PVE.

If you look at anything else besides the spreadshet, you'll noticed the numbers you are referring too. Thats just what makes Landsoul deserving of getting an item in game for himself, albeit crappy. (Depending on if you need a hit helm with that much hit, but it really depends on the itemization, I'd rather see a pure dps helm, but maybe they are saying caps are better) However in your case the hit helm would be a significent upgrade.

These questiosn come up frequently, and makes me want to yell at blizzard for a 5 year old system they haven't updated yet. Making this spreadsheet viable for the next 5 years at least.

The sheet is telling you from your arms import standpoint of view, so any number of things could be wrong. That you are at 100%(-10arp) when grim toll procs armor pen now. If you try and tell the sheet you want to gem for pure armor pen you get the somewhat disapointing results you complain about. I believe acctually that the 16% sounds familar, because its the ammount of armor pen you get in arms stance with the talents for it.

The significent other problems are in the fact you talent for 2 points into expertise, where as you have 30, according to the sheet 103 rating over the *cap*. Your hit is also 2% lower than it should for arms. Getting a Strength of Nerub, and gemming for the rest make up for some pretty huge dps gains. Although I'm torn your spec is more for arms pvp, and not arms pve. And if your referring to fury, well thats a whole new ball game. Use the sheet is is just unbelievable as you well stated. For fury the simple answer would be your arp sep is not high enough to justify going for pure armor pen yet. Depending on your 2nd weapon, and number of sockets. Caps are paramount though.

rebrebreb · 11/22/09, 2:45 AM

sorry didn't realise i was logged out as arms, my question was in the context of fury - my arms spec is purely for pvp dailies :P

:edit: just logged out in fury gear/spec

MikHaven · 11/22/09, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by rebrebreb

sorry didn't realise i was logged out as arms, my question was in the context of fury - my arms spec is purely for pvp dailies :P

:edit: just logged out in fury gear/spec

Thanks, in the back of my mind I knew that was what you were asking, but its hard to really see what you asking from the previous comment. About 4-5 pages ago, I answered a very similar question, and in the weeks since then I've had a chance to reflect on more of the question. I'm going ot say the answer is out of my league.

However, lets turn this around, and sorta rephrase the question, see if that is what you would like to know more about, than why its not a dps increase. However first the basics.

First of all I will say your crit is high enough to not be concerned about that, your hit and expertise are both nicely capped, and your gearring is as complicated as mine at this point, I believe you shouldn't drop a huge expertise or hit item until you have another way to make up for it. Your milage may vary. Your only upgrades at this point are going to be a rise in the primary states, Str, ArP, and then Crit. According to your sep values. Which is probably why your asking the question, Str right now is 1.0 and your arp is .982! The simple answer as I stated is basically keep gemming for str. The armor pen will come with upgrades, even into ICC from the looks of it. And getting a higher armor pen will then force you to switch out gems for str instead. If we had a 10str/10arp gem this would be an entirely different discussion I am sure.

I guess the real question, to the experts in the crowd, why gearing and gemming for a 100 armor pen is not a significent dps increase versus gearimg for a more strength based build, once you hit your caps.

I will answer what I know as I have before, it comes down to itemization. Hit and expertise up to the soft caps are the first best thing any new character needs to do, once you hit those caps. Gearing for any other stat, other than str, seems to be a insigificently dps increase in the short term. I also favor a healthy dose of crit, and the sheet backs me up on this, as well as my own personal experience.

I believe GC recently pointed out this wouldn't change in Cataclsym. Namely a warrior would want:
Str, Crit, Expertise, and Hit. With the ammount of talents and abilities that use str and converted attack power, we can see that ultimately strength is king! In terms of pure dps increases.

Armor pen had its hayday, and after a while it can be safely said that it was due to the fact that armor could go negative and it CAN NOT be negative anymore.. And was much easier to hit hte cap. At that point, I think a LOT of misconception went into the mix, and there is nothing anyone can do, but refute that. I imagine you still hear, why don't you gem for armor pen. I think the safe answer is, because its not a dps increase. Not to mention, cost is always a factor.

landsoul · 11/22/09, 7:16 AM

Originally Posted by MikHaven

I guess the real question, to the experts in the crowd, why gearing and gemming for a 100 armor pen is not a significent dps increase versus gearimg for a more strength based build, once you hit your caps.

The answer is that if your points are so close between the two, the different between 100 ArP and 100 STR is not significant enough to notice in the game. You can't really notice a 20-40 dps increase in the mix of all other variables such as randomness, play efficiency, etc. The cost of switching out 5 gems and switching out Dragon's Eyes in the appropriate combinations to get the best result could rise to 1000 or even 2000 gold. The average raider gets about one upgrade per week, and gives them the opportunity also to maximize their gems using the spreadsheet. Doing it twice in one week can get pretty expensive. There's more to the issue, but it's really about how much you are willing to spend for a small gain.

As stated many many times before in this thread and all across the DPS community, ArP points slightly increase with each additional gain of ArP. It may very well be that if your ArP points are slightly lower than strength, that putting in 5 gems may put it slightly higher than strength depending on how close you are to caps or what your total is at in general. Hit end expertise caps have very little to do with this relationship.

Imagine a graph where DPS is on the Y axis, and STR and ArP are on the X axis. The STR graph would have a constant positive slope, while ArP would have a slightly curved upward slope which started below STR, but eventually surpassed it at a certain point. That certain point is a function of how much DPS you gain per STR and how much of your damage comes from sources that are affected by armor.

A lot of warriors without a lot of gear have the issue that they have no proc trinket such as Mjolnir or Grim Toll (or in the future Scorpion) and that they have enough ArP already on their gear where their STR and ArP are extremely close in effectiveness (eg. 1.00 to 0.95) and they don't really know what's best. The answer is simple. Don't worry too much about it because you will spend too much time and gold trying to figure it out unless you knew exactly what you are doing.

It is more obvious for say, a warrior in a good 245-258+ mix with or without a trinket because getting near or at a ArP cap is clearly better. They have enough damage and enough base ArP that is effected by armor where ArP will always be better.

I hope I answered this question clearly and with enough detail. Feel free to quote it.

MikHaven · 11/22/09, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

The answer is that if your points are so close between the two, the different between 100 ArP and 100 STR is not significant enough to notice in the game.

I am sorry to throw you off Landsoul, technically I mean 100% armor pen. However your answer really hit upon a wide variety of topics, it really answers the question quite nicely.

MikHaven · 11/23/09, 4:45 AM

Landsoul Excel Miester.

If I am reading your 3.3 picture right, you have a table, persay, of slots, and you can click on those slots, and it changes the sheet down below. If I ever apply for a job with Excel, they'll ask how well I know Excel, and I think Ill have to say I can never match Landsoul. Your mad genius is freightening at times. The ellegence is what strikes me the most, it solves all sorts of clunky problems. Heres a thought, if this was done to the data in the spec page that would be scary. The flow charts are good, but the data charts could be consolidated, I mean that sounds like a lot of work, but I hope you can visualize what I mean. Have a button for say Caps, and it shows in the sheet below. Would make it finding data so much easier. How'd you come up with such a ellegent design?

Qin · 11/23/09, 9:42 AM

setting bloodsurge to 0 in talents breaks the sheet

amethyst · 11/23/09, 10:47 AM

Your spreadsheet does indeed work very nicely with Excel 2010 beta. It's a lot faster than Excel 2007 was on my PC too.

Thanks for the tip Lotuseyes!

I find the idea of having to be concerned about being crit capped intriguing, but I see what you're talking about with the sheer numbers on all the new ICC kit.

Having thrown some numbers into the spreadsheet, to estimate the sort of gear we're talking about, I'm wondering if we're going to start seeing top-geared warriors at the top of dps charts more often in ICC, or if other classes will scale just as well?

Historically, the gear in the last instance before an expansion (Naxx/Sunwell) has tended to cause warriors to outscale everyone else in dps, so will be interesting to see what happens.

landsoul · 11/23/09, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by MikHaven

Heres a thought, if this was done to the data in the spec page that would be scary. The flow charts are good, but the data charts could be consolidated, I mean that sounds like a lot of work, but I hope you can visualize what I mean. Have a button for say Caps, and it shows in the sheet below. Would make it finding data so much easier. How'd you come up with such a ellegent design?

That's a bit insane, I would agree. Consolidation of the data on the spec pages (Fury, Arms) would be an unsightly task. The plus side of it, though, is that you don't ever need to look at all of the crazy unorganized data to use the full functionality of the sheet.

Having a navigation menu for the item tables just made perfect sense to me. It solved a majority of restriction issues with '97 and was not too complicated to impliment. The Nav menu essentially teleports you to a different location on the same page so that you don't have to scroll to it.

rhyokin · 11/23/09, 7:00 PM

Page: LOOKUP
Error Type: Reference

Stats on Darkmaw Crossbow (Heroic) - listed as 43 agi 43 stam, stats are 43 stam 35 agi.

Page: LOOKUP
Error Type: Reference

When i upload my armory, it inputs darkmaw crossbow and gormok's band, both non-heroic, instead of the heroic versions that I have. This may have been addressed already, didn't scan through or search the 60 or so pages that this thread is at, sorry if it was.

Ajester · 11/24/09, 1:10 AM

I can't seem to be able to upload my armory into the spreadsheet. Each time I open up the spreadsheet I get an error first telling me that Excel found unreadable content in the workbook and if I want to recover it, then it tells me that in order to open it Excel had to remove Visual Basic for Applications. After that happens it will not let me upload anything into the spreasheet. I have all macros enabled and the proper settings for the spreadsheet running also. I really enjoy this spreadsheet and would like to get it to work at full capacity. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

aylene · 11/24/09, 1:14 AM

Originally Posted by amethyst

I find the idea of having to be concerned about being crit capped intriguing, but I see what you're talking about with the sheer numbers on all the new ICC kit.

Having thrown some numbers into the spreadsheet, to estimate the sort of gear we're talking about, I'm wondering if we're going to start seeing top-geared warriors at the top of dps charts more often in ICC, or if other classes will scale just as well?

Historically, the gear in the last instance before an expansion (Naxx/Sunwell) has tended to cause warriors to outscale everyone else in dps, so will be interesting to see what happens.

Approaching critical strike cap isn't as intriguing as it may sound. It only means the small portion of whatever is left of your white attacks (as in your offhand attacks for the majority of the time) no longer is possible to be a mere hit, either glancing, miss/dodge (in some cases) or a crit. After the crit cap your special attacks will still benefit from crit rating on your gear but crit rating doesn't in any way boost your melee portion of your total damage any longer as in no more rage gain. With a few leather/mail pieces some warriors aren't that far off the cap already in Coliseum, but if we're forced to wear more hit in ICC on offset parts (I doubt it, as we'll always be going for minimum hit parts) we'll be extending the crit cap. However, it isn't fairly interesting since hit hasn't been an interesting stat for warriors at all after special attack cap in WotLK.

On your second point, historically warriors also were limited by their rage. We're no longer designed around the assumption that we're going to be able to convert almost all rage into effective damage, nor around the assumption that rage is a precious, rare resource. Also, say in Naxx for example, no other class gained extra resources by upgrading gear (for example, rogues didn't have either sinister strike glyph or combat potency), and when a class who lacks resources suddenly finds themselves non-lacking interesting things occur, which was obvious in Naxx.

Historically, as in TBC as well, warriors did have an extremely low crit rate if you would be comparing the numbers. The introduction of having all possible melee buffs in a standard 25man raid setup alongside with what I would say an extreme increase of relative stats gained from gear has caused us to already having high flurry rates, which wasn't nearly the same in either TBC or vanilla.

This means we're not going to see any elevated rates of flurry uptimes that's worth mentioning.

I've thrown in the ICC gear as well, and although lacking proc-modelling I'm finding that there is no extraordinary dps-gain to be found (compared to other classes), that is if the arpen modelling with extreme high numbers of arpen is correct.

Here's for hoping I'm wrong!