The rogues have done some more mechanics testing on their class forum showing that despite what the UI displays, the game does not truncate when it converts from expertise rating to expertise.
...and a way to organize gem selection better.
If it is possible could someone help with designing an Armory Upload Macro?
When I would play my Warlock, I would use Leulier's dps spreadsheets. It currently has these two features that you are looking for; you could either get ideas by dissecting the macro code from the excel file and transpose it to your Warrior spreadsheets or get in contact with the individual that is currently keeping the file updated and have him/her further help you.
The gem selection/order works off of dps increase values.
The Armory macro works, but if a user has gear equipped that is not in the spreadsheet database there is a one-time notification pop-up per piece that is 'unsupported'; this occurs as the information is loaded from the Armory.
Isn't the yellow hit cap 9% and not 8% which you have writen in your spread sheet?
Also, it would have been nice if somebody confirmed that the theoreticaly best gear in the spread sheet actually outputs the best dps, and is better 2 use then full T7,5 - all plate.
Do you loose much from Armored to the teeth wearing lether instead of plate?
And lastly iv searched the whole internet now for this word "SEP" and i cant find out what it meens. Google is useless and the search function on the forum doesnt give me anything, and no guides ever tells me what SEP meens.. :/
Isn't the yellow hit cap 9% and not 8% which you have writen in your spread sheet?
Also, it would have been nice if somebody confirmed that the theoreticaly best gear in the spread sheet actually outputs the best dps, and is better 2 use then full T7,5 - all plate.
Do you loose much from Armored to the teeth wearing lether instead of plate?
And lastly iv searched the whole internet now for this word "SEP" and i cant find out what it meens. Google is useless and the search function on the forum doesnt give me anything, and no guides ever tells me what SEP meens.. :/
As said above, the yellow hit cap has been tested and proven to be 8%. Best in slot gear depends on preference (Hit and other rage feeding stats) and faction (Expertise racials and Draenei hit aura). From a pure theoretical and dps standpoint, the AP from AttT does not outweigh the stats of leather. SEP = Strength Equivalent Points or Stat Equivalent Points.
From a pure theoretical and dps standpoint, the AP from AttT does not outweigh the stats of leather.
That totally dependes on the pieces you`re comparing. There are, after all, some best-in-slot plate pieces.
To furier: Please use the spread sheet. Apart from the 8/9% Hit question (which hase been discussed in detail in these forums), all your questions can be answered by the sheet.
That totally dependes on the pieces you`re comparing. There are, after all, some best-in-slot plate pieces.
To furier: Please use the spread sheet. Apart from the 8/9% Hit question (which hase been discussed in detail in these forums), all your questions can be answered by the sheet.
Depends if you trust the sheet that everything thats in it is correct... but thanx anyways guys for good answers.
Remember that it's not just hit rating that gives you more rage. All the other offensive melee stats helps generate more rage from white attacks as well. I've got a lot less hit rating than you, yet I'm almost never rage dry in raids. So replacing hit rating with any other stats wont necessarily mean that your rage generation takes a dive.
Yes, I'm aware of this, I'm often saying it on the Tankspot forums to others.
I'm going to attribute my dry spells on not self-adjusting my HS usage between those upgrades. When you get used to HSing at a certain frequency, and then drastically alter your hit rating, you need to be more conscious of your HS usage for a little bit; that's got to be my issue.
All in all, though, I'd say my gear is doing quite well. Double BoH, 39% crit, 3800AP + FotFF trinket (in berserker stance). Sure, I need bracers that don't suck and Ruthlessness to allow me to swap out my T7.5 gloves for Sapph's leather, but I'm not really lacking in the gear department.
I'm going to see how my DPS stacks up as I adjust my HS usage. It still worries me to see the sheet predict 90% heroic strike usage with 175 hit rating (and the above stats), though.
furier if you dont want to use the sheet dont use the forum either, the sheet is used by many good warriors, who know the math behind the warrior well enough to say its a good comparison of gear, even if your the most intelligent and best human individual, your still human (i think) and you will never do a better gear decision out of the blue than the well worked sheet. If you want to know what is theoretically the best, use the sheet. If you want to know what is best for you. Do it yourself, because nobody knows how you really play, maybe for you hit is worth much more.
The sheet is a good tool to lighten your gear decision.
If you want to question everything, you have a lot of work to do yourself.
Any way think about it. If you question everything you get as answers from the community. Just dont ask anything.
A quick question, why is it that on maxdps [Fury of the Five Flights] is rated higher than [Mirror of Truth], but in the spreadsheet I get lower dps when I equip it? Just want to check who's right here. By the way, fantastic work landsoul.
A quick question, why is it that on maxdps [Fury of the Five Flights] is rated higher than [Mirror of Truth], but in the spreadsheet I get lower dps when I equip it? Just want to check who's right here. By the way, fantastic work landsoul.
Last time a paid a visit to maxdps, it was far less accurate than landsoul's sheet (for me). If you compare the detail of the input-section alone you will notice that the sheet takes into account a lot of details that are missing on maxdps. That doesn't mean that maxdps isn't at least a good guideline, but when it comes to comparing trinkets like FotFF and MoT which are pretty close in vlaue, I would trust the more detailed spread sheet.
Also, with two trinkets as close to each other as those two, there might be equipment setups which favor FotFF (ie having low AP and high Crit). And, as has been stated in this thread before, your mileage may wary depending on your playstyle.
A quick question, why is it that on maxdps [Fury of the Five Flights] is rated higher than [Mirror of Truth], but in the spreadsheet I get lower dps when I equip it? Just want to check who's right here. By the way, fantastic work landsoul.
[Fury of the Five Flights] is an ilvl 213 trinket, whereas [Mirror of Truth] is a ilvl 200 trinket. MaxDPS seems to weigh itemization levels quite heavily in what I've seen of it so far.
Look at it this way:
Fury of the Five Flights is 320 AP with 100% uptime if you discount the few seconds while it's stacking at the beginning of the fight and if you don't somehow loose the stacks during the fight.
Mirror of Truth is 1000 AP for 10 sec with what seems to be a 45 sec internal cooldown. Assuming the highest possible uptime, that's equivalent to 220 passive AP with 84 crit rating (1.83%).
So, it's basically 1.83% crit versus 100 AP. I would imagine that if your crit is particularly low, the Mirror will be better since it will help with your Flurry uptime. In reality, the Mirror won't reliably proc that much, thus pushing FotFF further ahead. Perhaps landsoul's spreadsheet is programmed to assume a perfect proc rate for the Mirror, or like I said, your crit is just really low, and that's why it shows as a better item.
I'll look into it when I get home, I'm on my laptop in class and this awfully slow internet prevents me from downloading the spreadsheet and looking at landsoul's numbers.
A quick question, why is it that on maxdps [Fury of the Five Flights] is rated higher than [Mirror of Truth], but in the spreadsheet I get lower dps when I equip it? Just want to check who's right here. By the way, fantastic work landsoul.
Maxdps bascially shows you a dps of an item, not how it relates to your stats. Meaning something like the mirror of truth may add 92.2 (what it says using default stats) but it doesn't take into effect how losing that much crit would effect you. Maxdps is good to see what peices of gear do good dps, but it does not show how equiping them will effect your actual dps. Landsoul's sheet calculates all of it. I couldn't get your Armory page to work, but depending on your crit rating it could cause a loss dps because of decreased flurry uptime if you lose the crit from [Mirror of Truth]. Maxdps is a nice look up, but not entirely accurate. For example it rates [Titansteel Destroyer] higher than [Runeblade of Demonstrable Power] which is not correct.
While I'm not affiliated with MaxDPS in any way, it's really surprising to see the amount of misinformation posted in the above and the site does deserve a little more credit than that.
MaxDPS does indeed show the relation of items based on the character stats that you feed it. This is very apparent when looking at the "Extra Stat Contributions" section in the third column. The values in that section changes (a lot) depending on your character attributes. In the [Titansteel Destroyer] vs [Runeblade of Demonstrable Power] example it basically sums down to this: 115 AP and 1.63% hit with higher weapon damage versus 2.56% crit and 1% haste with lower weapon damage. It's not as simple as saying "Runeblade is better than Titansteel".
Also it does NOT weigh item levels when it scores them, just check the glove list and look for [Borderland Paingrips], which still ranks very high depending on your gear.
No, MaxDPS isn't as accurate as Landsoul's spreadsheet, but it's accurate enough the majority of the time.
MaxDPS's flaw has always been rage modeling (ie, heroic strike uptime). For a long time, their Armor Pen calcs were way off base. I'm also skeptical of if it takes into account flurry etc.
Since we can't see the code used to generate their stat-weighing, we have no idea what mistakes it's making. For that reason, it's always been a reference; a quick lookup of items by slot/armor type/drop location, with a simplistic ranking formula.
Landsoul's sheet, on the other hand, is all open source. A number of us (myself included) have analyzed and verified the calculations. While there likely is still some flaws in his sheet, it's undergone a much more rigorous inspection than MaxDPS, and thus I consider it more reliable.
That is entirely and completely wrong. The two most valued stats for a Fury Warrior are weapon DPS and strength. The Destroyer has more of both, while the Runeblade only offers some crit and some haste in return. Even then, it would be very simple to tell that the Destroyer is better since both items are level 80 ilvl 200 items, the Destroyer is an epic while the Runeblade is a rare, thus affording it more itemization points.
As for my earlier statement, landsoul has come to the uptime percentage of 16.49% for the [Mirror of Truth], resulting in 164.96 average AP. Thus, he assumes just shy of a 60 sec internal cooldown. I have no idea how he came to that number, but it's probably more realistic since the trinket only has a 10% chance to proc when it is not on internal cooldown.
So, according to landsoul's numbers, you can expect [Fury of the Five Flights] to have a gain of 155 passive AP over the Mirror, whereas the Mirror will grant 1.83% crit. Landsoul's number are probably more realistic if MaxDPS is indeed assuming a perfect proc rate, which again is why MaxDPS is likely rating the Mirror higher than Five Flights, if your crit is indeed very low.
Without being able to look at MaxDPS's formulas, all I can really do is speculate, however.
The whole "purple is better than blue" argument is just incorrect. Just because an item has a higher item budget doesn't mean that the budget is spent on the right stats. The internal CD of the mirror is shorter than 60 seconds. I believe 60 seconds is the time in-between procs, with counting your actual critical strikes.
Also, if you read the post, Maxdps is claiming Fury of the Five Flights to be better than Mirror of Truth. Not the other way around.
The spreadsheet calculates the uptime of Mirror of Truth on a per-case basis: it clearly shows the uptime on the sheet with the current gear equipped. If you change one of the items, you easily see that the uptime will change, because the uptime increases the more crit you have.
[Fury of the Five Flights] is an ilvl 213 trinket, whereas [Mirror of Truth] is a ilvl 200 trinket. MaxDPS seems to weigh itemization levels quite heavily in what I've seen of it so far.
Look at it this way:
Fury of the Five Flights is 320 AP with 100% uptime if you discount the few seconds while it's stacking at the beginning of the fight and if you don't somehow loose the stacks during the fight.
Mirror of Truth is 1000 AP for 10 sec with what seems to be a 45 sec internal cooldown. Assuming the highest possible uptime, that's equivalent to 220 passive AP with 84 crit rating (1.83%).
So, it's basically 1.83% crit versus 100 AP. I would imagine that if your crit is particularly low, the Mirror will be better since it will help with your Flurry uptime. In reality, the Mirror won't reliably proc that much, thus pushing FotFF further ahead. Perhaps landsoul's spreadsheet is programmed to assume a perfect proc rate for the Mirror, or like I said, your crit is just really low, and that's why it shows as a better item.
I'll look into it when I get home, I'm on my laptop in class and this awfully slow internet prevents me from downloading the spreadsheet and looking at landsoul's numbers.
Going over a few weeks worth of WWS, while [Mirror of Truth] does in fact have a 45 second cooldown, on the majority of fights (for sake of argument say 7/10) though it doesn't proc more than once a minute for me on average. If a fight is three minutes, most of the time I'll see three Reflections of Torment, if it's 5'15 I'll see five. On very few occasions do I see more procs than once per minute. Of course that's RNG for you and you could actually proc it on your first hit into the fight or not at all for 30 - 45 seconds in. It's really hard for me to swallow that it's a better trinket than [Fury of the Five Flights] on a tank and spank, but I can totally see it on trash and anything involving moving or movement impairment.
And when you factor in Imp Berserker and any of the +10% AP bonuses from Unleashed Rage type effects, doesn't the AP come out closer to 264 vs 384?
Its easier to convert all "procs" to STR for comparison sake.
FotFF is 145.5 STR proc
MoT is 84crit and 454.5 STR proc. Assuming average crit rate for close to BiS gear, crit is about 0.95 str, at least 0.9.
MoT 75-80 STR and 454.5 STR proc
so we have passive of 65-70 STR vs 455 STR proc. 14.3%-15.3% (for respectively low-high crit gear) uptime is required for MoT to outperform FotFF. it means a proc every ~67 sec. In my experience MoT achieves that.
Now mind it - it assumes complete 100% uptime on FotFF. On fights currently done, its not always true. MoT on other hand seems to "fit" well into encounters - it procs once per drake on sartharion, it "cools down" on malygos during vortex etc. Remember - a fight with downtime/movement phases, its not only that FotFF will drop stacks - it also "cools down" MoT and ups it effectiveness.
Its easier to convert all "procs" to STR for comparison sake.
FotFF is 145.5 STR proc
MoT is 84crit and 454.5 STR proc. Assuming average crit rate for close to BiS gear, crit is about 0.95 str, at least 0.9.
MoT 75-80 STR and 454.5 STR proc
so we have passive of 65-70 STR vs 455 STR proc. 14.3%-15.3% (for respectively low-high crit gear) uptime is required for MoT to outperform FotFF. it means a proc every ~67 sec. In my experience MoT achieves that.
Now mind it - it assumes complete 100% uptime on FotFF. On fights currently done, its not always true. MoT on other hand seems to "fit" well into encounters - it procs once per drake on sartharion, it "cools down" on malygos during vortex etc. Remember - a fight with downtime/movement phases, its not only that FotFF will drop stacks - it also "cools down" MoT and ups it effectiveness.
How do you get a passive 70 str from 320 (before talents) AP that takes very little time to peak? As I said in the previous post "tank and spank". Also, there are not very many fights right now where you are not hitting something for more than 9 seconds. FotFF should almost always have a full stack once the initial stack is gained. Unless I am just completely wrong about how the trinket works and it's only affected by auto and Heroic Strike.
FotFF procs on WW/Cleave too. I have a full stack in notime.
Glyphed Cleave gives me +3 on the stack even. (When hitting 3 mobs ofcourse)
WW seems like its only granting it on the MH attack. I never got more than +4 on the stack from a single WW.
nono , passive str from 320 ap is 145.5 . However the crit on MoT is "worth" around 77 str for me (i used 75-80 spread in last post), so taking those two "static" bonuses on trinkets we can reduce it to 70 str on FoTFF vs just the 1000 ap (455 str) proc.
I had a interesting discussion with one of our rogues, he told me that [Extract of Necromantic Power] would be a viable alternative for melees that use DOTs. Would it be possible to include the trinket in the Spreadsheet? According to Wowhead it has a 15 sec CD and 10% procchance on DOT. It would be intersting to know, how good this trinket truly is.
Are you sure that trinket has any effect for warriors? I can imagine it working for rogues because Deadly Poison uses spell hit and is more or less a spell that does periodic damage, but I don't think the same logic applies to Deep Wounds or Rend.
02/14/09, 12:54 PM
Google is useless and the search function on the forum doesnt give me anything, and no guides ever tells me what SEP meens.. :/
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