Warrior DPS Calculation Spreadsheet - Page 21

Shha · 04/04/09, 8:23 PM

Returning to the MS vs Execute debate.

- What you need to compare is 19% of lost Execute vs 30% of lost MS (thats why the cooldown matters - 5 sec makes 1.5 sec lost time on MS = effectively losing 30% of MS in the fight).

- You need to compare actually the damage gain of using MS over Slam, and Execute over Slam - instead of just the skills. Thats why Slam damage matters too (which is very unintuitive). The more Slam damage the smaller the gap between MS and Slam (and with given Execute damage, makes using Execute more beneficial). Since I know it still starts controversy - Imagine 2 "border" cases.

a) Slam damage = 0 (which we can assume happens if for some reason a fight requires you to move ALL the time). Then its clear 19% of Execute damage vs 30% of MS. Since Execute doesnt hit 30%/19% = ~1.55 times harder then MS, its a worse choice.
b) Slam damage = MS damage (possible with a very slow weapon due to unnormalized Slams - well theoretically possible, since to make up for the 0.5 lost white swing the weapon would probably need like 4.5 base speed or more). Then no matter how little the edge executes have over MS, its still better to use them - since using MS wont boost dps at ALL. Lost MS cooldown? No problem - slam can completely replace it without dps loss.

Hopefully that can convince people that Slam damage can affect choice between MS and Execute.

- Those 2 points right now seem to end up making MS about even with Execute NOW.

- Considering Slam damage will go down relatively (lack of t7 bonus at some point), while MS will go up (t8 bonus), and because execute scales slower then MS, and MS scales faster then slam (unless its a very slow weapon that i cant see on Ulduar loot tables yet), ulduar will shift the balance towards prioritizing MS. Actually with Ulduar weapon and t8 bonus, MS might get ahead of Execute with 10% crit and accounted deep wounds.

However MS vs Execute debate shows in my calculations differences that are well under 0.5% final dps. In short - who cares. There are more pressing issues that a spreadsheet/discussion could cover.

1) What will be the new SEP for arms.

a) Lack of imp zerker stance and ArP domination for Fury , suggest that ArP will be unquestioned king for arms. Additive battle stance adding to it as well.

b) Str will still dominate crit even with axe spec - or maybe especially - since overpower already seems to be capped on crit raid buffed. Rend adding some small part here.

However the question raises - given how arms lack str bonus, will leather be better? Or will it be mostly useless because if we dont want haste and expertise, the only leathers that can be useful are ones with agi/crit/ap/arp and agi/crit/hit/ap (only till cap).Both are prone to vastly diminishing returns (due to crit cap on OP) - and 2nd is additionally hit capped). Seems that even with the lower stat budget the STR/ARP plate might win. But thats something for spreadsheet to actually test out.

What weapon will be best. Axe has a very nice polearm with perfect itemization however:

- Crit cap is extra painful with Axes, although if you look at axe spec, it scales POSITIVELY with crit - so maybe stacking crit is the way to go with axes - despite lower OP effect.
- Will the extra ArP we can collect lead to dropping the Grim toll in favor of more passive ArP? And in such case it seems that adding mace to the deal might be better then axe.
- Or maybe Voldrethar is best cause of highest Ilvl - even though by all means it seems that sword spec is bad.

Those are the questions that need answering much more then choosing MS over Execute - which honestly doesnt matter compared to possible hesitation - acting 0.1 sec later on choice of MS/Exe will lose you more dps then choosing incorrectly.

Khazes · 04/04/09, 8:33 PM

Originally Posted by Legedi

I really like the armory import feature of the new spreadsheet! I was wondering if the internet feature it could be (if it is possible) expanded to look up the stats of items off of the wowarmory/item-info, or any other site like wowhead. Then the item database of the spreadsheet wouldn't have to be updated for new items (or old items not currently in the database). It would help people like me that just hit 80, and need to manually add all the green/blue quest items I'm using until I get into raiding.

Going a step farther, even an option of including PTR items for quickly assessing how the new round of items affect the power of warrior.

Just trying to think of ways to make this DPS spreadsheet even more amazing.

It is probably possible to generate the item automatically if it doesn't exist in the spreadsheet, but we'd have to manually update the spreadsheet any time the PTR items are added. In case anyone missed it, here's another link to the current spreadsheet w/ armory import enabled:

FuryDPS2.305Excel07armory.xlsm

Please let me know if you find any issues. Note that anything with a typo (or anything that just isn't in the spreadsheet) won't be imported correctly.

• landsoul · 04/04/09, 9:27 PM

Here's an update of what's going on with ArP and relative caps:

% damage done given buffs, debuffs, armor formula
$\frac{A}{A+B((1-x-y(1-\frac{B}{A+B}x))}$
where x is between 0 and 1 and is the sum of armor pen buffs: arms, mace spec, gear.
y is the difference of product of the .8 and .95 from sunder and FF = .24
A is 15232.5 the half armor value
B is 10643 the boss armor.
(1-x-y(1-B/(A+B)x)) is greater than equal to zero.

With sunder and FF, Armor penetration then caps out at 84.324%. You can verify this by plugging (1-x-y(1-B/(A+B)x)) into a graphing calculator and seeing where the function crosses the X axis.

amount of buffs/debuffs	amount ArP% needed	rating required
None	100	1232
Sunder	87.171	1074
Sunder+FF	84.324	1039
Sunder+FF+Arms	74.324	916
Sunder+FF+Arms+Mace	59.324	731

basically what is happening in the formula is that everything is additive, but sunder+ff reduction is scaled down by the product of the bosses' original reduction and your ArP.

On the topic of weapons and Weapon specs, It all depends on how the final ArP formula will play if it goes on live or not, and what weapons are available. So we'll have to see.

Idaeus · 04/05/09, 3:03 AM

Couldnt find any posts to the raid buff changes,
here are the most important ones:

Bloodlust/Heroism: Cooldown reduced to 5 minutes, but Sated and Exhausted now last 10 minutes.

Edit: Thanks for the correction on Imp MotW

Could you please add them to your to do list?

remix1 · 04/05/09, 3:15 AM

Isn't the 3.1 imp motw bonus just for the druid?

Liar · 04/05/09, 4:05 AM

Imp MotW is just for the Druid, yeah.

Grive · 04/05/09, 8:16 PM

Hey there! long time user/reader of these forums (going on 2-3 years) first time poster. But to the point. I am really impressed with the armory addition to the spreadsheet and was wondering if there was any support for Excel 03 in the makings or if there was an easy way to make the current DL work for 03. I have the spread sheet open just as much as i play and use it profusely. With out it i am sure the entire dps community would be scrambling for info and adding the armory feature just makes it that much better. Keep up the good work! and thx in advance.

• landsoul · 04/05/09, 10:11 PM

Please, again just wait for the release before patch day.

vpchelko · 04/08/09, 8:35 AM

Opps, it was ru-eu translation problem....

But still minor difference between, Spreadsheet and real crit rate. Does Spreadsheet takes in account base crit from agi?

marodeur · 04/08/09, 4:32 PM

Hello,

how did u validate the Rage Conversion Value (320.6) because i think that value inst near the real value. i testet it ingame, with a c=320.6 i should get ~16 rage but i only get 12 when im hitting for ~850. so i think the c is more like ~500.

i tried that with 1 and 2hand weapons and with and without endless rage, same conclusion 320.6 didnt work for me using the formular from that blizzard blue post for rage gen.

vpchelko · 04/10/09, 7:02 AM

Originally Posted by vpchelko

Opps, it was ru-eu translation problem....

But still minor difference between, Spreadsheet and real crit rate. Does Spreadsheet takes in account base crit from agi?

I haven't setup my skinning:
--> Master of Anatomy - Spell - World of Warcraft <--

Necronom · 04/10/09, 10:56 AM

I apologize if this has been asked already, but I couldnt help but notice that your (Landsoul's) ArP calculations dont include Shattering Throw. While it does have a long CD and not the greatest duration, one can easily imagine that success in ulduar for guilds just entering it may occasionally come down to making clutch decisions, particularly if your group is struggling to beat say, an enrage timer. One could further imagine that a well timed shattering throw when the boss is low on health, and perhaps a blood lust is activated, that a shattering throw may make a little more room for execute spamming+ OP/rend as a viable option due to the improvement in rage generation. Shattering throw might also find a good home for useage when your grim toll proc is on CD.

I readily admit that this sentiment is merely just a "gut" feeling with no mathematical approach to confirm that this would be a good idea. Just looking for some input from a knowledgable source.

Wong-Fei-Hung · 04/10/09, 1:19 PM

Originally Posted by Necronom

I apologize if this has been asked already, but I couldnt help but notice that your (Landsoul's) ArP calculations dont include Shattering Throw. While it does have a long CD and not the greatest duration, one can easily imagine that success in ulduar for guilds just entering it may occasionally come down to making clutch decisions, particularly if your group is struggling to beat say, an enrage timer. One could further imagine that a well timed shattering throw when the boss is low on health, and perhaps a blood lust is activated, that a shattering throw may make a little more room for execute spamming+ OP/rend as a viable option due to the improvement in rage generation. Shattering throw might also find a good home for useage when your grim toll proc is on CD.

I readily admit that this sentiment is merely just a "gut" feeling with no mathematical approach to confirm that this would be a good idea. Just looking for some input from a knowledgable source.

You'll notice that landsoul's spreadsheet is currently based on 3.0.9, and Shattering Throw is a new ability in 3.1. So yes, it does not include it. Wait for the 3.1 version of the spreadsheet if you want to see what Shattering Throw will do

• landsoul · 04/10/09, 5:53 PM

Shattering throw is pretty bad when you look at it in an overall view. But it does seem pretty good when you look at it in a sense as a "well-timed" cooldown. Something this spreadsheet can't really do well.

remix1 · 04/11/09, 1:20 AM

It'll probably be nice for raid dps during hero, but not much at all for personal dps.

Hatshot · 04/13/09, 1:14 PM

can anyone please check if the expertise bonus on maces from the dwarf racial is working? i tried jawbone and demise getting +3 as human and 0 as dwarf. thanks.

• landsoul · 04/13/09, 1:34 PM

If it's not there I can fix it in the next build. Something that was just overlooked.

BWarner · 04/14/09, 1:46 AM

- Deleted, my apologies. Got a bit excited, there. ;D -

remix1 · 04/14/09, 3:05 AM

Will the Arms spreadsheet be functional for tomorrow, or does it still need a lot of work?

• landsoul · 04/14/09, 3:39 AM

It's sitting on my desktop, very functional.

Ajarat · 04/14/09, 12:29 PM

Thank you very much for all your hard work, Landsoul! I can't wait to see the new spreadsheet! >_<

macarturius · 04/14/09, 9:36 PM

lansoul i beg you just let us see the spreadsheet. I cant wait.

• landsoul · 04/14/09, 11:49 PM

Patience is a good quality to have. Check the front page if you want.

Grive · 04/15/09, 12:24 AM

Attempted to do the armoy update and got a few errors. It's saying it cant find the armory page. Anyone else getting these problems?

gab · 04/15/09, 12:34 AM

just put it in manually, i just read that landsoul wrote that the ArP Rating is still bugged on the live servers, so what does thix exactly mean? should i expect an increase for the total dps gain per ArP Rating?