Landsoul, might want to prepare for a future update to your spreadsheet:

"We are now considering capping armor penetration at 100%. Armor could no longer go negative. We're not sure if we would do this in a hotfix or in 3.1.2. We just wanted to let anyone know who is furiously trying to acquire every armor pen item in the game.

Note that there is not a not a cap on the amount of armor that can be reduced in WoW at the moment. Also note that capping armor penetration at 100% does not mean that you can always reduce every target's armor to 0%. The tooltip says "up to" for a reason.

Yes, we understand this stat can be a little confusing." - Ghostcrawler

Yeah, that doesn't make me want to ram my head into the wall at all. No sirree. Especially not after confirming it was intended to go above 100% not that long ago.

Going to mess around with the spreadsheet tonight after the raid to see if I can figure out a new BIS set, and determine if it's better to skip ArP and use either or both of the trinkets or to stack it and ignore them. I'm betting on the latter.

I don't miss much Kaan so no i did not miss your enrage. You responded to Graul's post about single targets. Which btw is what this spreadsheet covers. You then said you're happy if you hit 5,500dps. The spreadsheet does not cover fights where we get lots of rage via damage taken nor does it cover enrage. Enrage works for some fights. I did try it as i always do. I found it lacking for the majority of fights. I tend to spec for the majority of fights. Also if we can't HS even close to the amount indicated on the spreadsheet that is based on a single target it is a problem. This cannot and should not be ignored.

I don't see anything separating a mainhand and offhand hit value for rage. What i mean is it does show a mainhand hit and offhand separate and shows precisely the amount of damage each will do etc, etc. However the offhand uses a different value for calculating rage. It's supposed to use 3.5 as opposed to 7.0 for crit and 1.75 as opposed to 3.5 for a non crit for hit factor (f). This is not currently being done. A temporary but inaccurate fix would be to add say *.79 to the end of the calculations in cell AH AI 52. That's just what i came up with based on mainhand and offhand white hits and crits with the gear i had in the spreadsheet. I mathed the rage generated. *.79 is not accurate at all for spreadsheet purposes. However i do think something should be done and that at least will get us closer to what it needs to be for fury.

For the purposes of the formula presented here, we define:
R: rage generated
d: damage amount
c: rage conversion value
s: weapon speed
f: hit factor

Rage is generated by successful autoattack swings ('white' damage) that damage an opponent. Special attacks ('yellow' damage) do not generate rage.
R = (7.5d / c + fs) / 2

[top] 3.75d / c + fs / 2

15d / 4c + fs / 2

The hit factor (f) is a multiplier based on the type of hit you perform on your target. The values are:
Weapon Hit type f
Main Hand Normal Hit 3.5
Main Hand Critical Hit 7.0
Off Hand Normal Hit 1.75
Off Hand Critical Hit 3.5

The Rage Conversion Value (c) varies by player character level and is derived from other values within the game such as a mob's hit points and a warrior's expected damage value against that mob. The known values are:
Player Level c
10 37.4
20 72.4
30 109.3
40 147.9
50 188.3
60 230.6
65 252.4
70 274.7
80 320.6

The formula for calculating (c) is c=0.0091107836*Level*Level +3.225598133*Level+4.2652911

I see most of this is included in the spreadsheet. So i know that you know this Landsoul. But again it does not factor offhand correctly for rage generation purposes. That part of the equation was left out. It treats all hits the same. Just pointing it out and showing you the easy/cheat inaccurate fix i made of *.79 as i think it's helpful and more realistic of actual rage and DPS.

Hey, long time reader, first time poster.

I have been checking some lists you gusy have made. What I wanna know is, if having the 4-set bonus is better than having items with for example better stats than the tier ones ?

[Shoulderplates of the Eternal] from Ayriaya is clearly better than [Conqueror's Siegebreaker Shoulderplates], specially since I am a JC getting the 4 str bonus w/o using a purple is an option.

Catch 22, you don't see it because you aren't looking hard enough. It's right there with normalized generation, cell AI53. I spent a lot of time verifying each formula when I first built the system used in the sheet. If you expand the formula there, you will see that it is correct. If you aren't sure about something, just PM and ask me first instead of wasting space in the thread.

So if Blizzard goes ahead (which they most likely will) and caps armor penetration at 100% to where bosses can no longer go into the negatives, at what point does armor penetration rating become useless in a raid setting? I forgot if sunder + FF factor into what items we're using when trying to reach a 100% cap using this new formula.

All I know is that following armor penetration since 3.1 has been a roller coaster ride. RIP Grim Toll & Mjolnir Runestorm. You had your 15 minutes of fame!

I just downloaded the latest version, and now I get SEP value 0.0 for Haste.

I'm using the Arms spreadsheet. I imported from armory, added Boots of Unsettled Prey manually (because it was misspelled), and have 2,87% haste.

I also wonder why I get 0.0 SEP from Hit. Isn't the cap 263 hit rating (Horde side)?

Armor Penetration Potential Changes
Quote from: Ghostcrawler (Source)

[Seed of Budding Carnage]
Is not in the list.

Which means that you will still get enough armor penetration from ulduar gear to make it a viable stat, however Strength will be priotized over ArP with the BIS gear to get the highest dps possible.

I am not saying that for example ArP gems will beat Str gems, but it feels a bit safer to include some strength aswell, togetehr with high amount of ArP. I cant calculate this just yet, so any help would be great, when is Str better to gem for over Arp and ArP over Str ?

Landsoul i'm not an expert when it comes to spreadsheets. Getting defensive about your own work i can well understand. I did look at cell AI53. Cell AI53 makes sense for figuring out additional rage from talents and heroic strike glyph etc, etc. However cell AI53 is not using the coefficient from cell AI51. Since cell AI52 does use cell AI51 coefficient this leads me to believe cell AI 52 is being used for mainhand and offhand rage generation from white damage. Looking at it more thoroughly i do see you do have mainhand and offhand separated. .Apologies. No idea if it's correct. I'd still look into this though and recheck that cells math. Rage seems way to high so Heroic strikes are way to high and is seemingly inaccurate. The key word being seems. That does not mean it is wrong. But may warrant a finer look.

Greatness and one of the ArP trinkets seems like BIS if/when they do the ArP cap. I'm curious what amount of ArP from gear is the best. Will it end up being 620 or so? That seemed to be it when we thought there was a cap. But well before all the math was corrected. This is the answer i'd want over any others. It will determine mainly which gems we use. Either ArP or strength based on our current amount of ArP.

The Attack Power Multiply Buff section of the fury dps sheet doesn't effect the total dps whether you enable Unleashed Rage or Abomination's Might. It does work on the arms dps sheet and changes the dps depending on whether you have the buffs or not.

I don't know that I would equate them saying they were OK with it as confirming it was intended. Maybe I'm mincing words though.

You had to know ArPen was bound to change again. They removed casters getting damage boosts from negative resists long ago so it's only reasonable to expect them to do the same for a like situation that affected melee.

That's why spread sheets like Landsoul's exist. So you can fart around with them and figure this kind of stuff out on your own.

An additional 10% crit on BS or MS is easily going to out pace a relatively paltry extra 5 hit rating and 6 crit rating. Plus the extra stamina doesn't exactly suck. Besides you need the shoulder slot to make the 4pc since our T8 legs are pretty damn meh.

What I'm trying to figure is whether the 100% cap means ACTUAL 100% (as in the target's armor is reduced to zero after messing around with calculating the protected amount) or whether it's simply the % as shown in game, which is actually 86% or so (don't recall the exact number).

TBH, I doubt that they've decided yet on how they're going to do it. As long as they don't introduce some wacky diminishing return scale like was done for dodge/parry....

I assume that he means exactly what he said, that you will be able to reduce the target's armor to 0 so long as the target's base armor is low enough to allow that to happen through the ArPen coefficient formula. As in, it will work exactly as it does now, except you cannot reduce armor below 0.

After inputting all my information in Landsouls spreadsheet, Im at 1.0106 SEP at the top...So for my understanding I should regem for ArP?

I'm at 20% ArP, 10% from battle, so 30%, then I just grabbed ironsoul, going to spec maces and get the 15% so that puts me at 45% and I have grim toll..

So, how much should I actually socket?

Thanks for any replies!

If your SEP is greater than 1.0000 than each point of ArP is better than Str. Knock yourself out. Or just play around with the spreadsheet and see how the DPS adjusts accordingly.

- Bodd

That is what Im confused about, in the spreadsheet when I change the gems from str to ArP my dps decreases. Visually is it suppose to do that? and I guess the only real way to test if it worked is to run some instances?

What is the SEP value of ArP in your gear? If it is lower than 1.0, you will lose DPS.

Proposing the following alternate non-hard mode BIS list which is better at 6413 DPS while sticking with full plate so as to minimize competition over loot.


MH Weapon: [Rune Edge]
OH Weapon: [Worldcarver]
Helm: [Conqueror's Siegebreaker Helmet]
Neck: [Favor of the Dragon Queen]
Shoulder: [Conqueror's Siegebreaker Shoulderplates]
Back: [Drape of the Drakerider]
Chest: [Conqueror's Siegebreaker Battleplate]
Leggings: [Clockwork Legplates]
Gloves: [Conqueror's Siegebreaker Gauntlets]
Waist: [Girdle of Embers]
Wrist: [Decimator's Armguards]
Boots: [Melancholy Sabatons]
Ring1: [Cindershard Ring]
Ring2: [Sif's Promise]
Trinket1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket2: [Grim Toll]
Ranged: [Giant's Bane]

BS/JC - all ArP gems minus 1 16 Exp gem and 1 Bold Stormjewel

How would look a BiS Setup with the arp nerf?