Isn't that more accurate to the game? Different rotations would be better depending on gear. I can see that wreaking havoc with SEP though.
If you have set rotation templates, it shouldn't be too hard for the sheet to just fill in slams and HS. Would be much easier to determine which rotation is better then. Also leaves an option for fun stuff like a different rotation for vezax with pummels, or keeping sunder up.

Set rotation templates, there's no such thing in the real game because it changes dependant on when you get bloodsurge procs.

I got 6207 dps using proto-hide leggings off razor and T8 shoulders for non hard mode BIS. I know the pants are leather but they are bind on equip and it's only one piece!

just a quick question regarding warrior dps...... is it true that 1 ARP>1 STR only if your char has 40% ARP from gear?

this has been confusing me for a while and the answers i get decide wether or not i regem to pure STR please help

Well I suppose that would depend on the rotation, if slam > BT or slam > WW you don't really have a rotation.
A spreadsheet has to either take rotation(s) that repeats or the full list of abilities from start to finish. But I don't see how you would be able to create such a list accurately without making a simulation, and at that point why bother with excel anymore.

It's not a simulation, rather a statistical distribution of effective decisional rotational periods. I'm starting to work out each individual one, and then finding the chance of each one occuring, and then averaging them all together very carefully.

That's because switching that one gem caused the entire gearset to hit the soft cap, i.e., when Mjolnir Runestone procs it'll be at or above 100% armor penetration.

I don't suppose you would be willing to share how this works? I think I am either misunderstanding or you have a very powerful tool that would solve most of the problems that have been discussed for the last 20 pages.

Edit: How does 1% haste give more rage gain than 1% hit, I can't figure out how the sheet gets this?

I think that's because your faster hits can also crit?

They can also miss/dodge/block/parry but in the end the crits (with appropriate gear) will make up for it.

Haste in General:

This question, or something similiar has bugged me for some time. I don't mean 1% hit, of course. Say Haste vs Armor Pen. The thing is the majority of players I talk to in game seem to think Haste has some inate quality for fury warriors that it should be really awesome. However with 213 gear levels, I just don't see this the case. Now I am not in Ulduar, however my gear is pretty decent, and while I wish I could exchange more stats around, it just isn't supported in the gear I have.

I've heard it say as well, well haste isn't that good until you stack it high enough. Well I regemmed all my str for haste on the sheet of course, and it still didn't eek out any difference, even at 17% haste from gear. Same with Armor Pen, but I imagine this is more an arms thing and getting over 40% base armor pen or so. We are not talking close numbers like crit of course, we are talkign .4-6 sep values for both.

The point being, until I see better gear, haste, and armor pen are just okay, but not worth it to me whatsoever. In fact with the 30-40% str boost we have, and the value str is placed, I don't see str dropping any time soon.

Hit to me is more like Expertise, when I hit the cap, the sep value drops to 0, although I tend to like 12-15%, not because every piece I have has it, but because it just feels better. Although the sheet is good to let you know when enough is enough it seems.

Ultimately, is there any value to this remark from the community Landsoul, or anyone, why is haste the best fury stat.

Well with the change to BT being 4 seconds now it may effect talent choices. Basically now we will have less free GCD's. Bloodsurge will clip more. This may mean that Anger Management may be preferred over Imp Zerker Rage. You'd loose the ability to stock up on 100 rage before a fight though. Just putting that out there as the patch is live today. Interested as to if this is true or not. Speculating before the spreadsheet is updated. Also is there anywhere in the spreadsheet that accounts for using a GCD when you use Zerker Rage?

I have a quick question about that Str > ArP > Str thingy.

Does it calculate only with base-ArP from gear?
I do have about ~45% now and Grim Toll would put me to somewhere like 94% - so do I have to count Feary fire / Sunders / maybe arms-spec (+mace as i've only got Iron Soul+Inevitable defeat at the moment) into that calculation? If so, I would be far over the cap...

It would make sense to me, but I've never seen anyone who does talk about 'if ArP+sunders < 100% then ArP > Str' - I only read 'ArP <100%' all the time.

It is hard to understand this, because I associate EJ-forums with exact and well-written information.


btw. I apologize for language deficits.

Well don't I feel dumb now. That would be it.

But haste certainly is not the best fury stat. Like hit, it will only increase white damage and by extension rage. How much of it you stack doesn't make a difference either. I suspect that these people saying haste is so good are the same people behind the craze of gemming for hit at 70, they don't understand how warriors work.


landsoul, to expand on what I don't understand about your rotations, it seems to me there is no common point of reference between slams and BT/WW, because bloodsurge can proc off HS and because the amount of time to 'wait' is variable based on lag, reaction time, and preference. I made a basic model of the probabilities of Slam>BT>WW in excel but it got to a large size after a few seconds and didn't incorporate HS or waits. If we are talking about the same thing, what you are saying is you have a statistical distribution of the simulator that Kalroth made in the Fury thread ([link=http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t37680-depth_fury_dps_discussion/p67/]for reference[/link]). I hope I am just having another brain fart on how you do it because it would be very useful, but I just don't see how you would do that in excel. Frankly it would seem easier to have something like Kalroth's script in an excel macro than do all the probabilities out, but thats where my commend on simulation came from.

By the way, since the patch is live will there be a new version of the spreadsheet soon or not until the rotations are figured out?

What I was thinking was 1. but slightly modified. Basically you have WW (1.5 second GC), BS (slot used from possible BS 1.5 second GC, or just 1.5 second empty space), BT(1.5 second GC), and empty (1.0 second space).

The rotation looks like this: WW-BS-BT-BS-empty-BT-WW...

This comes out to be a 8.5 second rotation, a delay of only .5 seconds on WW if there is a BS on the first WW. I'm guessing this is close to your 8 second period with 1 slam chance, and just stuck a BS in right after the first WW. Just determine if a 0.5 second push back is worth the extra BS.

P.S. (hit post instead of preview) As an aside, it would be sad if the "best" dps rotation comes out to be 1 slam in an 8 second rotation, and any extras just get wasted. That would show blood surge as very broken IMO. I'm very interested to see what rotation/priority system works best.

when i use the spreadsheet for fury and i select titans grip it drops my DPS down by 500 from 4700 to 4200. dare i ask why? or am i getting that i should be using one handed weapons?

Hit is somewhat counterproductive stat - the more hit you get, the more rage you generate , the more heroics you use - in return lowering value of hit. Haste is not like that, increasing rage generation increases your heroic strike usage, but only slightly the heroic % (it does go up a bit with haste, because of constant rage use for "rotation" - or close to constant given bloodsurges). Therefore haste seems a lot better stat to stack. Granted - its obviously not as good as others, but its a desirable stat for warriors unlike hit.

ahh got it. the sheet doesent limit the usage of 2H, it assumes that you should have TG enabled with 2 2H weapons.

how much more dmg is 2 2h weapons with the 10% reduction than 2 1h weapons of equal level?

I don't think its EJs fault, just the noobs coming around asking questions, like me. However I think it has a LOT more to do with Blizzard, recently they have been whimsical, well not just recently. R.I.P Teh Gladiator's. but more so it seems. They allowed armor pen to go above 100% before, and the word got around, however the new word is its capped at 100%. Something landsoul has been talking about since the inception of the armor pen buff.

This is where the confusion comes from,

On to the topic at hand, I wanted to answer something I felt I knew, when you check the sheet, it defaults to having all the buffs/debuffs up, so it includes sunders, I believe in this calculation. So you probably don't see Sunder+Arp, because you see a 100% it assumes you have sunders up, and is probably a non-stated fact, americans do this all the time, infer something, or restate something without the full disclosure, IE quants.

This is an interesting line of reasoning, because I've been messing around with sunders, since I learned their power, and if we could go above 100% with armor pen, with the sunders up, how much cooler would it be to get to 100% without the sunders, that would save me a LOT dps downtime.

As stated elsewhere debuffs on target and buffs on yourself work separately. So 100% is the cap for armor pen from your gear+stances+weapon specs. Sunders don't enter into it, they simply modify the value your armor pen is affecting.

So if I understand correctly, then sunders do actually not matter in that whole 'Str > ArP > Str'-thing?
That would make it easier for me, as I'm unfortunately not able to work with landsouls spreadsheet due to lack of microsoft office/excel...

thanks in advance

Thanks for cleaing up my confusing about buffs and debuffs, It makes sense, now that I had time to think about it.

Thats exactly my point but worse off, but still probable.

Your saying the mob has 10k armor, sunders ignore 3k, their armor is 7k. Numbers are just representative.
Armor pen ignores 100% of 10k or 100% of 7k, it doesn't care about sunders. Why even sunder a mob eventually if you can get 100% armor pen 100% of the time theoretically. Thus saving me time, stacking sunders to 5, and re doing a full stack if it drops. Speaking of which I think if a sunder drops, it should drop only one at a time, not the whole stack.

This is however different, because, and only would work if sunders reacted first. I have 10k my sunders ignore 3k I have 7k, I ignore 50% and I have a final number of 3.5k

HOWEVER if it was post armor pen, I have 10k, you ignore 50%, I have 5k, minus the 3k sunders I now have 2k.

Either way, ignoring 100% of the armor, without sunders, would eliminate the need to sunder, ff.