The counter looks to be stuck at 622 I've been trying to download for awhile now. Tried both versions... Still no luck.
I wanted to toss this out there I had a friend ask me about the 'sheet' I'm always using to check gear during raids and being that he's not a Warrior I directed him here and he grabbed a sheet in the Druid and in the Pally sections and he asked me some odd questions... ones that wouldn't make sense for this sheet. So I go and download the Druid Moonkin sheet and find that it just doesn't compare at all with the Fury/Arms sheet here. I don't want to discount the work that others have put into their sheets but when you get frustrated here with some of the odd errors or the debates over rotations etc take a minute and go grab one of the other sheets... it should become clear rather quickly that the depth this Fury sheet goes into isn't the norm and our ability to precheck gear and experiement with gems, foods, enchants, etc is not shared between all classes here.
Just got leggings of ruination and I'm desperate to find out if I can ditch the 4 set bonus for now or if I'll gimp myself too much.
anyone got a mirror for the latest version spreadsheet (07 excel preferred)?
If I recall correctly, unless you have other expertise pieces to replace dreadnaught legplates (I'm just assuming you are, since most people uses the other 4 pcs), you would be gimping yourself.
Edit: Oh, you were using the t8.5. Still the lost in expertise is pretty huge for a fury build. You'll need to bring it back up to 25. It is just my experience messing with the spreadsheet.
I'm using ver2.406b and I've seen a couple of minor bugs:
1. Whenever I try to add an item to the "off-hand" lookup table it breaks the dps calc. Actually even just changing the name of an existing item in the off-hand table will break the dps calc. Doesn't seem to happen for other item categories.
2. For whatever reason with my build/talents, running SEP breaks the dps calc with a "div/0" error if I don't put a talent point in Endless Rage.
Just my 2cents. Thanks much for the great spreadsheet!
Landsoul, saw you in a BG the other day (unless it was one of your imitators). Good times!
Anywho, I was wondering if there were any plans in the works, or if there is a workaround, in the DPS spreadsheet which can explore the useage of dual wielding 1hers for both arms and fury. Specifically I would like to explore:
DW arms in the execute phase and how higher hit frequency effects rage generation for execute spamming, and bladestorm damage when dual wielding
1H DW fury with higher hit frequency, higher proc uptime, no TG penalty and those implications in the execute phase.
While Im sure 1h versus 2h isnt going to be as good overall with current gear, Im more curious as to how close it is and if it is indeed close if macroed weapon swaps which allow certain abillities to exploit the benefits of 1hers might be a good, or at least viable, option, especially if one could extrapolate that information and draw a hypothesis on its effectiveness in PVP (where hit rating requirements are significantly lower).
Im not going to suggest "OMG WE NEED TO DO THIS!", I just want to have some fun experimenting.
I posted this question in the in Fury discussion, but I suppose its better suited for this thread. I've noticed that when using Grim Toll in Arms sheet, the the SEP of ArP is greater than Str up until about 50% passive ArP. However, when using Grim Toll in the Fury Page it seems to say that around 46-47% ArP is where Str takes priority.
I know that percentage is true when using Mjolnir Runestone because of the increased ArP from the proc, but is this a mistake w/ Grim Toll, or am I missing something?
DW arms in the execute
bladestorm damage when dual wielding
1H DW fury
1H DW fury in the execute phase.
if macroed weapon swaps exploiting the benefits of 1hers
DW arms in the execute:
With sudden death, imp exe. You can be spamming executes for free at 10 rage on every GCD if you want regardless if you miss all white attacks. You can do this 2H or not. With the exe glyph, this is at least 20 rage executes every GCD. At minimum this is (1456+380+ap*.2)*1.1*DIM
(base damage before armor, also assume white damage is similar between DW and 2H, also no DIM's from raid)
10 rage noncrits:
10 rage crits (axe):
30 rage noncrits:
30 rage crits (axe):
5000AP=2836*1.1=3119.6
3119.6*2.392=7462.1
3955.6
9461.8
6000AP=3036*1.1=3339.6
3339.6*2.392=7988.3
4175.6
9988.0
7000AP=3236*1.1=3559.6
3559.6*2.392=8514.6
4395.6
10512.8
8000AP=3436*1.1=3779.6
3779.6*2.392=9040.8
4615.6
11040.5
With all speed buffs, heroism, and using a 2.6/1.6 and an exe every 1.5s and accounting lag, you get about 2.4 attacks per second. This gives you a SD about once every 4.5-5 seconds. 30% of your executes will be un-rage-capped.
Compare this to slam, MS, OP of a 2h, 1000 top end 3.6 speed.
Slam noncrits:
Slam crits (axe)
5000AP=(3.6*5000/14+1000+250)*1.1*1.06=2956.6
2956.6*2.392=7072.3
6000AP=(3.6*6000/14+1000+250)*1.1*1.06=3256.5
3256.6*2.392=7789.5
7000AP=(3.6*7000/14+1000+250)*1.1*1.06=3556.3
3556.6*2.392=8506.7
8000AP=(3.6*8000/14+1000+250)*1.1*1.06=3856.1
3856.6*2.392=9223.9
Okay, since slam is weaker than even DW execute, we can assume to not consider it.
2H MS is not as strong as even DW executes at these AP levels. At High AP levels it gets stronger than non-SD executes.
Now, since you can exe spam with a 2H on, each exe will do 1.06 times the damage of a DW exe. Also, your rend and OP damage will be much much higher with a 2H. Basically you have to justify that the RPS to gain to damage via execute and SD procs (30% of GCD) from DW-ing overcomes the rend, OP, and exe damage increase from using a 2H. Here's the RPS formula I yanked from the TTT in progress:With heroism accounted:
Now this is at only 5000 AP, and AP/haste etc favors DW'ing more, but the difference is not nearly enough. Even with more SD procs from DW'ing, I don't think you would be able to overshoot the 20 rage per second to utilize the extra SD.
DW arms in the execute:
With sudden death, imp exe. You can be spamming executes for free at 10 rage on every GCD if you want regardless if you miss all white attacks. You can do this 2H or not. With the exe glyph, this is at least 20 rage executes every GCD. At minimum this is (1456+380+ap*.2)*1.1*DIM
(base damage before armor, also assume white damage is similar between DW and 2H, also no DIM's from raid)
10 rage noncrits:
10 rage crits (axe):
30 rage noncrits:
30 rage crits (axe):
5000AP=2836*1.1=3119.6
3119.6*2.392=7462.1
3955.6
9461.8
6000AP=3036*1.1=3339.6
3339.6*2.392=7988.3
4175.6
9988.0
7000AP=3236*1.1=3559.6
3559.6*2.392=8514.6
4395.6
10512.8
8000AP=3436*1.1=3779.6
3779.6*2.392=9040.8
4615.6
11040.5
With all speed buffs, heroism, and using a 2.6/1.6 and an exe every 1.5s and accounting lag, you get about 2.4 attacks per second. This gives you a SD about once every 4.5-5 seconds. 30% of your executes will be un-rage-capped.
Compare this to slam, MS, OP of a 2h, 1000 top end 3.6 speed.
Slam noncrits:
Slam crits (axe)
5000AP=(3.6*5000/14+1000+250)*1.1*1.06=2956.6
2956.6*2.392=7072.3
6000AP=(3.6*6000/14+1000+250)*1.1*1.06=3256.5
3256.6*2.392=7789.5
7000AP=(3.6*7000/14+1000+250)*1.1*1.06=3556.3
3556.6*2.392=8506.7
8000AP=(3.6*8000/14+1000+250)*1.1*1.06=3856.1
3856.6*2.392=9223.9
Okay, since slam is weaker than even DW execute, we can assume to not consider it.
2H MS is not as strong as even DW executes at these AP levels. At High AP levels it gets stronger than non-SD executes.
Now, since you can exe spam with a 2H on, each exe will do 1.06 times the damage of a DW exe. Also, your rend and OP damage will be much much higher with a 2H. Basically you have to justify that the RPS to gain to damage via execute and SD procs (30% of GCD) from DW-ing overcomes the rend, OP, and exe damage increase from using a 2H. Here's the RPS formula I yanked from the TTT in progress:With heroism accounted:
Now this is at only 5000 AP, and AP/haste etc favors DW'ing more, but the difference is not nearly enough. Even with more SD procs from DW'ing, I don't think you would be able to overshoot the 20 rage per second to utilize the extra SD.
you lose:
a whole 2 hander of stats
Instant AP scalar down from 3.3 to 2.4
400-500 damage range on weapons, and 50 DPS
a bunch of RPS
you gain:
11.11% damage
That's pretty easy to decide on.
1H DW fury in the execute phase:
Terrible rage generation, terrible damage.
If macroed weapon swaps exploiting the benefits of 1hers
There is no benefit to DW 1hand for any spec.
Counter if you want.
Oh Im not looking to counter, merely trying to ascertain the relative difference. Many will claim that DW arms for example is sooooo bad compared to singular 2h wield, but by your calculations, a DW bladestorm is within 10% of 2h damage in and of itself, but another thing we havent explored is relative weapon enchant/proc uptime. For example, a single wield berserking enchant will give a maximum of 400 AP, where dual wielding will give a maximum of 800 bonus AP and likely have greater uptime because of the increased hit frequency. where do those shake out then? And its not as straightforward as just comparing the weapons in a real situation because one has to take into account the extra itemization stat on one handers and how that creates variabillity in gearing other slots. Thats kinda why I was hoping there was some way to check it out in the spreadsheet. I also would want to consider if speccing 52/19/0, how close 20% OH damage compares to 6% damage on 2h weapon spec. I fully understand and appreciate its currently 2h or GTFO, but again, I just want to figure out how close they really are.
Forgive me if I've misinterpreted what you said, Landsoul, but Sudden Death's 10 rage after Execute bonus only applies to SD executes. A full uncapped normal Execute will leave you with zero rage. Thus, you cannot use an Execute every GCD if you do not have any rage income from whites or incoming damage.
Oh Im not looking to counter, merely trying to ascertain the relative difference. Many will claim that DW arms for example is sooooo bad compared to singular 2h wield, but by your calculations, a DW bladestorm is within 10% of 2h damage in and of itself, but another thing we havent explored is relative weapon enchant/proc uptime. For example, a single wield berserking enchant will give a maximum of 400 AP, where dual wielding will give a maximum of 800 bonus AP and likely have greater uptime because of the increased hit frequency. where do those shake out then? And its not as straightforward as just comparing the weapons in a real situation because one has to take into account the extra itemization stat on one handers and how that creates variabillity in gearing other slots. Thats kinda why I was hoping there was some way to check it out in the spreadsheet. I also would want to consider if speccing 52/19/0, how close 20% OH damage compares to 6% damage on 2h weapon spec. I fully understand and appreciate its currently 2h or GTFO, but again, I just want to figure out how close they really are.
Also added things like double weapon specs, 1h axe mh, 1h mace offhand so you don't have to get as much arp or perhaps even hit the arp cap without MR or GT? I'd also like to see how HS spam works out with dw arms and more importantly see how much better raidbuffs like bloodlust work out, because BL really blows for 2h arms atm.
Anyway, I'll be trying out several dw specs on the ptr when we get to try more bosses and I actually manage to get double berserking, enchanting mats on Remulos anyone?
Yeah shows you how much I play arms anymore which I haven't in almost 2 months. Maybe I'll try it again for a little bit before the patch. Even with DW 1 handers it would be easy to use every GCD anyways, so it would not matter. For 2H, tho, that's not possible. The real question then would be if DW exe spam with rend and OP is better than a modified 2H rotation with some regular executes mixed in.
There's no real way to check this out in the spreadsheet at the moment. I'd have to do a lot of combobulating for many hours. The feasability has to come first for me to even consider doing the work, and it does look questionably close. maybe when I get some more free time I'll give it a whack.
Yeah shows you how much I play arms anymore which I haven't in almost 2 months. Maybe I'll try it again for a little bit before the patch. Even with DW 1 handers it would be easy to use every GCD anyways, so it would not matter. For 2H, tho, that's not possible. The real question then would be if DW exe spam with rend and OP is better than a modified 2H rotation with some regular executes mixed in.
There's no real way to check this out in the spreadsheet at the moment. I'd have to do a lot of combobulating for many hours. The feasability has to come first for me to even consider doing the work, and it does look questionably close. maybe when I get some more free time I'll give it a whack.
Perhaps as a first order test for feasibillity, a "simple" option to use custom weapons wherein the user can input the weapons stats and see how the DPS tracks for the standard 2h rotation (with other gear being adjusted of course). Maybe you say if DW dps is within 70-75% (just as an example) of 2h dps then its potentially worth figuring out an optimization, otherwise its unlikely any optimization will bring the two to a closer pairity. I suggest as low as 70% because Im guessing the spreadsheet will likely need refinement in determining proc uptime and the effects of dual weapon specs which will have a substantial improvement on dps.
Anyway, its just a thought, I do genuinely appreciate that you're giving it some degree of consideration.
Dual weapon specs do not improve DPS. The example listed of using both axe and mace spec does not work. The extra armor penetration only works on attacks made with the mace, and the extra crit/crit damage only works with the axe. If you put the axe in the main hand then you get the crit bonuses as normal on the Executes, but not the armor penetration. And likewise if you reverse the weapons. The only time that I can see having two weapon specs may be an improvement to having one weapon spec would be axe/sword or mace/sword, where the off-hand would proc a main hand swing. But all of this requires sucking five points out of talents that are more important.
Landsoul, do you have this list also available with the gems used?
I try to adopt your list for SimulationCraft profiles and not really fimiliar with the different ArP cap etc. :/
Fury: Profiler - Wowhead I just got the Exp cap, then straight STR gems, or should I replace some with ArP gems?
It's intended that I put the JC gems in red slot, because in 3.2.0 they'll lose their prismatic state anyway.
Last edited by Starfox : 07/14/09 at 8:56 PM.
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
Dual weapon specs do not improve DPS. The example listed of using both axe and mace spec does not work. The extra armor penetration only works on attacks made with the mace, and the extra crit/crit damage only works with the axe. If you put the axe in the main hand then you get the crit bonuses as normal on the Executes, but not the armor penetration. And likewise if you reverse the weapons. The only time that I can see having two weapon specs may be an improvement to having one weapon spec would be axe/sword or mace/sword, where the off-hand would proc a main hand swing. But all of this requires sucking five points out of talents that are more important.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I checked and from what I read from others was that Axe spec with an axe in the mh affects all attacks and same goes for the Mace spec while offhanding a mace but not vice versa; Meaning, a mace in the offhand will affect all attacks but the axe crit chance+added damage only affects offhand attacks. I'm not sure if this is a bug or working as intended though.
Landsoul, do you have this list also available with the gems used?
I try to adopt your list for SimulationCraft profiles and not really fimiliar with the different ArP cap etc. :/
Fury: Profiler - Wowhead I just got the Exp cap, then straight STR gems, or should I replace some with ArP gems?
It's intended that I put the JC gems in red slot, because in 3.2.0 they'll lose their prismatic state anyway.
For the arms BiS, if you use Armbands of Bedlam instead of Bitter Cold Armguards and use one arp gem to hit the softcap for Mjolnir, it's slightly more DPS.
07/08/09, 5:09 PM
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